Frontier, Please Don't Kill Our Crew! Part Deux

[Noctover]

They are actually pretty strong when trained up quite a ways. But you're right in that fighters don't have super staying power. That's why my Corvette carries 30 of them. As for your other other comments, we understand that there is a small subset of players that prefer things as hardcore as possible, including permanent loss of gear and pilots. But most players don't want this. While you yourself can give yourself a self imposed ironman by refusing to rebuy your ship, or by selling off all engineered components if you do rebuy, not allowing other players the option to play the game their way is a bit cruel.

But mostly, the argument to save NPC crew (and not have them charge us a fortune when inactive) is simply to keep that mechanic in line with the rest of the game. Passengers don't die. Engineered modules aren't permanently lost. Materials are forever. Basically, by the game's internal logic, there is absolutely no reason why NPC crew should have permadeath as realistically, everyone on the ship should have access to escape pods. Cause it makes zero sense that random economy class passengers should survive, but the people operating the ship should die, right?

Well firstly, i dont think either of us can speak for the majority.

When you buy a game you dont buy something that is really easy and "make the challenges yourself", they should be staple. All games should have a victory and a lose; ED lacks a lot of lose.

Nothing about dying in this game makes sense; the fact that you survive, the fact that i pay £700 a year for my car insurance in real life yet i can lose 700 millions worth of ship and some guy is happy to give it all back for me for 40 or so million make less sense than anything.

The argument "to fall in line with the rest of the game" is terrible because lets be honest; they make 3 or 4 things easy then by that logic; the rest of the game must be also.

It isn't cruel to have win and lose states in a game, i'd argue that its the sheer definition of a game. No one can deny that the game is heavily weighted in favour of leniency across the board.

Now im not advocating an eve like game where everything is out there to put you back into rags; but when their is quite literally only 1 feature of the game that has any true impact when you die or lose (something which is hard to do if you don't fall asleep in the first place), i think anyone that values what a game should stand for should fight to keep it in.

Long story short, this game has no loss, and the one thing you can lose people are fighting to get rid of. Im merely fighting to keep it in.

 

[Drelthar]

I feel like there needs to be a way for them to die, otherwise you hire three crew then that's it forever.

I do however feel like it needs more nuance.

Go rescue them from a signal source, maybe the enemy ship actually captured them and you now need to use hatch breakers to free them, maybe they crash landed on a planet and you need to probe the surface, find a signal, and go find them.

Other ideas that game designers can come up with.

 

[irrstern]

I fully agree, the current mechanics are stupid and illogical.
There are many different ways to make it better, but I suppose this is not on FD’s list...

 

[Kaybe]

Noctover, I'm VERY confident that most players in here would absolutely lose their sh*t if they permanently lost all their engineered modules and all their materials on death. As in keyboard through the monitor levels of rage.

You already lose a fair chunk on death. For one, losing some 30 million+ credits on the loss of a Corvette or Cutter is not pocket change. Sure, there are some missions that get you that back fairly quickly, but it still requires a few hours time investment. But they are willing to do that as it doesn't step back their progress on their ship. You also lose all your cargo and all your exploration data, the latter which could be really bad and the reason why deep space explorers are very cautious folk.

What you're asking for is a loss of progression aka wasting your time. There's a reason why old style MMOs that made you lose XP and levels on death dropped in popularity really quick. I played Lineage 2 back in the day and really loved it (/s) when I would grind XP for a couple of hours and a random ganker made me lose all progress. The same type of system here would be an epic disaster. No one would ever PVP anymore. No one would ever even PVE fight in Haz RES without winged backup. Time is a precious commodity and simply erasing days, weeks, months of progress would be disastrous. This is why NPC crew permadeath is such a hot button topic. No one wants to feel like they are wasting their time, and hence, no one grinds crew from Harmless anymore. Cause why would they risk it? *Especially* if they are the type of players who like to PVP.

 

[Wyldwiisel]

If you read the dark wheel there is only space for one in the escape pod

 

[Noctover]

Noctover, I'm VERY confident that most players in here would absolutely lose their sh*t if they permanently lost all their engineered modules and all their materials on death. As in keyboard through the monitor levels of rage.

You already lose a fair chunk on death. For one, losing some 30 million+ credits on the loss of a Corvette or Cutter is not pocket change. Sure, there are some missions that get you that back fairly quickly, but it still requires a few hours time investment. But they are willing to do that as it doesn't step back their progress on their ship. You also lose all your cargo and all your exploration data, the latter which could be really bad and the reason why deep space explorers are very cautious folk.

What you're asking for is a loss of progression aka wasting your time. There's a reason why old style MMOs that made you lose XP and levels on death dropped in popularity really quick. I played Lineage 2 back in the day and really loved it (/s) when I would grind XP for a couple of hours and a random ganker made me lose all progress. The same type of system here would be an epic disaster. No one would ever PVP anymore. No one would ever even PVE fight in Haz RES without winged backup. Time is a precious commodity and simply erasing days, weeks, months of progress would be disastrous. This is why NPC crew permadeath is such a hot button topic. No one wants to feel like they are wasting their time, and hence, no one grinds crew from Harmless anymore. Cause why would they risk it? *Especially* if they are the type of players who like to PVP.

But we are not talking about losing mods or stats or materials, we are talking about losing your time investment.

What YOU are asking for, is that we dont lose anything. Anyone that loses a ship costing 30mil rebuy has the ship to make that money back in an hour, IF that...And thats WHEN you die in a game where dying is rare.

I played Eve, and in that game you lost everything; theres a reason its one of the most popular MMOs out today and one of the longest lasting. You cant use a bunch of MMO examples that do it your way and ignore Eve as a counter.

You listed a bunch of stuff that can technically happen; losing exploration data or cargo, but again everything is in your favour to NOT die.

 

[Lestat]

I think If you want to keep them they will get a Pay Hike as the cost of injuries.

 

[Stealthie]

The pattern is, nothing in this game is hard, nothing in this game isnt easily avoidable and nothing in this game gives you any sense of loss.

Losing crew give you the adrenaline to not die, it gives you something to lose for once, the game needs MORE LOSS not LESS.

That being the case, for the sake of consistency, FDev need to change the way our NPCs are handled until there IS more risk... for everybody.

When PvPers lose their engineered modules and weapons when they lose a fight, then they can re-apply permadeath for NPCs.

 

[Miko]

FD do NOT care how much we cry about this issue. The fact the mechanic makes zero sense alone makes it criminal it hasn't been changed. Not to mention the NPC stealing tens or hundreds of millions of credits doing nothing but sitting in a station. Every station in space for that matter. Unrealistic, so might as well be immortal.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

But according lo lore fighters are operated remotely. I'm not even sure they're in the mothership with you. I assume not and on "death" their link to you is severed.

Last time I used a NPC pilot, I had to pick them up at the MC lounge.

I write this every time but hey.

Undocking isnt a challenge.
Docking is not a challenge
Escaping interdiction isnt a challenge
Running from a fight you aint winning isnt a challenge
Logging off in 15 seconds from the point of seeing a hollow square isnt a challenge
Anarchy systems are not a challenge
Landing on planets is not a challenge

The pattern is, nothing in this game is hard, nothing in this game isnt easily avoidable and nothing in this game gives you any sense of loss.

Losing crew give you the adrenaline to not die, it gives you something to lose for once, the game needs MORE LOSS not LESS.

FD, please keep perma death for crew in the game, and add MORE consequence for losing/sloppy flying.

Grinding once more the XP for your crew member isn't more challenging than the first time you did it, same goes for engineered modules.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

But we are not talking about losing mods or stats or materials, we are talking about losing your time investment.

What YOU are asking for, is that we dont lose anything. Anyone that loses a ship costing 30mil rebuy has the ship to make that money back in an hour, IF that...And thats WHEN you die in a game where dying is rare.

I played Eve, and in that game you lost everything; theres a reason its one of the most popular MMOs out today and one of the longest lasting. You cant use a bunch of MMO examples that do it your way and ignore Eve as a counter.

You listed a bunch of stuff that can technically happen; losing exploration data or cargo, but again everything is in your favour to NOT die.

I'm sure there are other things that make Eve Online popular but one thing is for sure, if they went into that direction in ED many people would leave the game myself included.

 

[Mephane]

I wouldn't have a problem with the copilot "losing a level" (down to whatever level they were hired at). It could be explained as PTSD from the near-death experience.

Why don't we then lose a rank?

I am so tired of these arguments that seek some kind of "compromise" as if negotiating with FD.

The answer to all of this is very simple. Your NPC crew should survive together with you, period. No strings attached. No rescue-your-crew minigame. No "NPC rebuy cost". No NPC level loss.

You survive and don't lose ranks, and the explanation is that you got an escape pod and are rescued etc. There is no reason why your crew would not sit in the same escape pod or another one.

 

[Miko]

I write this every time but hey.

Undocking isnt a challenge.
Docking is not a challenge
Escaping interdiction isnt a challenge
Running from a fight you aint winning isnt a challenge
Logging off in 15 seconds from the point of seeing a hollow square isnt a challenge
Anarchy systems are not a challenge
Landing on planets is not a challenge

The pattern is, nothing in this game is hard, nothing in this game isnt easily avoidable and nothing in this game gives you any sense of loss.

Losing crew give you the adrenaline to not die, it gives you something to lose for once, the game needs MORE LOSS not LESS.

FD, please keep perma death for crew in the game, and add MORE consequence for losing/sloppy flying.

Yes, please keep perma death in the game for this gentleman. He would also like Iron Man mode added to his menu. He hasn't been uber quick ganked by death wings using engine shut down and fsd killing boom boom toys. Wing Plasma spam is beautiful, mate.

Of course, not detailing my own experience since I'm a warrior, but just being logical that anyone caught in a Keelback losing their NPC permanently when your commander happily survives no problem, well...

It's a rubbish mechanic. Sorry.

 

[Artie]

I agree with this request... again, same as many times before.

The NPC crew permanent death is discouraging, demotivating and illogical.

 

[Nekrobob]

Dont die,Problem solved.
For me my NPC has Value because its taking so long to get her to Elite,i like it that Way.
If i dont want lose her because of hairy Situations,i just leave her at a Station.

Sure,they eat your Money and XP Points,but for me thats not a Big Deal.

 

[Noctover]

Yes, please keep perma death in the game for this gentleman. He would also like Iron Man mode added to his menu. He hasn't been uber quick ganked by death wings using engine shut down and fsd killing boom boom toys. Wing Plasma spam is beautiful, mate.

Of course, not detailing my own experience since I'm a warrior, but just being logical that anyone caught in a Keelback losing their NPC permanently when your commander happily survives no problem, well...

It's a rubbish mechanic. Sorry.

You make a lot of presumptions.

 

[Miko]

Dont die,Problem solved.
For me my NPC has Value because its taking so long to get her to Elite,i like it that Way.
If i dont want lose her because of hairy Situations,i just leave her at a Station.

Sure,they eat your Money and XP Points,but for me thats not a Big Deal.

Just because you play solo and hide from the big boys, pal.

Doesn't change the fact it's an illogical rubbish mechanic.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Dont die,Problem solved.
For me my NPC has Value because its taking so long to get her to Elite,i like it that Way.
If i dont want lose her because of hairy Situations,i just leave her at a Station.

Sure,they eat your Money and XP Points,but for me thats not a Big Deal.

Do you PvP?

 

[Nekrobob]

Do you PvP?

Only passive.

 

[Kaybe]

But we are not talking about losing mods or stats or materials, we are talking about losing your time investment.

Gathering mats takes times.
Running around to all the engineers to soup up everything on your ship takes time.
Grinding up NPC pilots takes time.

The first two stay when you die. The last is lost forever.
So why would keeping progression on some of the grind be okay, but not on others?

It makes no sense, man. Sorry. I understand your argument, but there's no logic to saying some things are okay and not others when all of them are investments in time and sometimes credits. What makes some of them immune to permanent loss while others not? ESPECIALLY when the not is on an aspect of the game that's exclusive combat focused and hence at highest risk of destruction.

If you want the game to include an Ironman feature where death erases your save, sure, go nuts. I'll support you as I know some players would like to see it. But the rest of us, including the overwhelming number of people in this thread and likely the rest of the game, would really rather NOT dedicate a significant amount of time in game to something that can be forever lost in seconds.