What's The Mamba's niche?

[777Driver]

Reducing it slightly is not enough... I thought you knew this, but I will explain how minimum mass on thrusters works:

- Once your total mass gets higher than the minimum mass value of your engines, your ships starts loosing top speed rapidly.
- 5A Thrusters (DD5 / DragDrives) have a minimum mass of 365 tons
- 6A Trhusters (DD5 / DragDrives) have a minimum mass of 626 tons

Conclusion: The minimum mass difference between C5 and C6 thrusters is 260 tons. Good luck with "slightly" reducing the Mamba's hull mass by that amount. C6 thrusters on the Mamba would make it possible to build a heavy combat fitting and still retain a top speed well over 600 m/s. If this is desirable can be debated, I think it's necessary because speed is the only thing the Mamba has going fort it compared to the FdL.

but whatever your opinion regarding this possibly is: Your statement that increasing thruster size to C6 was pointless is just wrong.

Bortas, it seems you are trying to turn this ship into an absolute beast, I don't think anyone is suggesting that, and the devs would never do it. I think most sensible cmdrs here are talking about a moderate increase in performance.

Whilst not entirely necessary, the ship could do with a slightly higher top speed, and slightly better jump range. Reduced mass and slight base stat tweak wold achieve just that. Devs have confirmed they will adjust the heat output.

I saw your heavy build over on the beta forum, entirely your choice to run a ship that heavy and lose a bit of top speed, these are trade off's we deal with in the game.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Ed Lewis said in the livestream yesterday that they would do something about the heat issues of the Mamba for the next Beta, which is scheduled for next week. See this link for the info => https://youtu.be/6oxdkSQIiFQ?t=520

That's good. Let's hope it'll end up fixed better than the dolphin lol.

Still, 600's is slow for racing. As it stands it would be a pure FDL spinoff (bit faster, worse in all other aspects). Still not a great deal IMO.

If it was more differenciated, it would not be so bad for it to be worse (for PvE) than the FDL (becaus it could be different enough to still be interesting).

For PvP, I can't say anything because I know nothing about it since 2.2

If only It could have C5 enhanced performance drives... that would suck enough power to run a Coriolis station.

 

[Bortas]

the devs would never do it.

I don't expect it either.

I think most sensible cmdrs here are talking about a moderate increase in performance.

Don't have a problem with that. My problem was your claim that it would have no effect (=pointless) to change the engine size. You repeated this obviously wrong statement several times, and were saying that everyone who was suggesting it had no idea about the game mechanics. I don't care about the Mamba... We have different opinions on it and I repsepct that. I will not buy it in live and be done with it.

But I do care when players who should know better are (deliberately?) making wrong statements to support their point. Such wrong statements should not stand uncorrected. That's all.

 

[777Driver]

I don't expect it either.



Don't have a problem with that. My problem was your claim that it would have no effect (=pointless) to change the engine size. You repeated this wrong statement several times, and were saying that everyone who was suggesting it had no idea about the game mechanics. I don't care about the Mamba... We have different opinions on it and I repsepct that. I will not buy it in live and be done with it.

But I do care when players who should know better are (deliberately?) making wrong statements to support their point. Such wrong statements should not stand uncorrected. That's all.

Ok apologies, it irks me when others use the word pointless a lot on this forum, so I should avoid using the term myself. I did say "it will however give the ship a more expensive module with virtually zero gain" Implying there are slight benefits

 

[Muetdhiver]

Genuine question related to all of this :

What do you guys thing of adding C4 and C5 enhanced performance drives with crazy power consumption ?

 

[Bortas]

Ok apologies, it irks me when others use to word pointless a lot on this forum, so I should avoid using the term myself. I did say "it will however give the ship a more expensive module with virtually zero gain" Implying there are slight benefits

There's the respectable 777Driver I know Glad we could settle this. Maybe my term "uselss" was a bit over the top, too... I'm probably just too disappointed that this great looking ship doesn't meet my personal requirements for it to be useful to me.

 

[Kellan Fell]

Kinda gets me worried about the Panther Clipper (Also Zorgon Peterson) Clearly a lot of time and effort has gone into the design of the ships, but there is just something about those designs that I don't like. The Mamba in VR feels like I am sitting in a Ferrari that is the size of an apartment building.

I wouldn't worry, the Panther is never going to get into ED. We've been asking for years and there's never even been a hint. Given that it is too big to dock at a Coriolis Station and there is no mechanic for unloading, it would only be capable of landing on surface stations, and I think we've got more chance of getting atmospheric flight before we get the Panther... And I've pretty much given up on both of these.

 

[777Driver]

Genuine question related to all of this :

What do you guys thing of adding C4 and C5 enhanced performance drives with crazy power consumption ?

Don't those things run insanely hot? Haven't used my racing eagle for a while

 

[Aashenfox]

Mine will be tested first in the canyons of Ariel, I want to see how the back follows the front. Being so big should make things very interesting, I'm used to flying those canyons in a Courier!

But yeh, after that, I think I'm with Driver. Assassinations and probably CZs. Don't see myself using it much for PvP. Too shieldy for my taste. Give me balls to the wall, fight down to 20% hull (then nonchalently bug out if necessary) hybrids.

I look forward to fighting one in pvp though, big target, shield heavy, just what my ships are designed to counter. Attrition for the win!

 

[Muetdhiver]

Don't those things run insanely hot? Haven't used my racing eagle for a while

It's hot, but managable. Heat becomes an issue (but not a meltdown) when used on combat builds, but that makes it all the more interesting.
Essentially : trading speed for weapon, shields and armor. Like in the old days.

For example an iCourrier with a single railgun is fine, but no two, Incendiary MC's ? Works, for a while (no prolonged fire)

etc... Also, since they have high power use, and run hot,

you need an efficient powerplant, i.e. no overcharged mods. That constrains modules choice further. Weight is bad too, so prismatic becomes a bad choice for speed given the mass curve.

 

[Achilles7]

.....

But hey, what do I know... I don't understand the game mechanics... Who cares about empiric evidence? Of course the engine size doesn't make any difference. [wacky]

True. You are not one of them, though.

Oh dear! You've just nullified your own credibility; Driver may be a touch smug, have questionable grammatical skills & a tendency to boast...but to say he doesn't know what he's talking about is patently ridiculous (or rediculous, eh Driver?); he is one of the most knowledgeable players in this forum relating to the game mechanics & other salient disciplines such as physics/aerodynamics/aircraft management systems...ergo, if I were you, I'd just shut my big, fat gob, stop digging & quit while I am behind!

Btw Driver, I've just been to Tenerife on holiday...it was awesome! What's that? You've just come back from Elevenerife & had an even awesomer (sic) time?!...D'oh! You win again!!!

 

[Bortas]

Oh dear! You've just nullified your own credibility; Driver may be a touch smug, have questionable grammatical skills & a tendency to boast...but to say he doesn't know what he's talking about is patently ridiculous (or rediculous, eh Driver?); he is one of the most knowledgeable players in this forum relating to the game mechanics & other salient disciplines such as physics/aerodynamics/aircraft management systems...ergo, if I were you, I'd just shut my big, fat gob, stop digging & quit while I am behind!

Didn't mom teach you to shut up, when adults are talking? Especially when they are having a lavian brandy in the Orange Sidewinder? What are you doing in a bar anyway? Oh well... Bartender! An iced plum juice for the little Achilles7 over here!

 

[Stealthie]

Reducing it slightly is not enough... I thought you knew this, but I will explain how minimum mass on thrusters works:

- Once your total mass gets higher than the minimum mass value of your engines, your ships starts loosing top speed rapidly.
- 5A Thrusters (DD5 / DragDrives) have a minimum mass of 365 tons
- 6A Trhusters (DD5 / DragDrives) have a minimum mass of 626 tons

Conclusion: The minimum mass difference between C5 and C6 thrusters is 260 tons. Good luck with "slightly" reducing the Mamba's hull mass by that amount. C6 thrusters on the Mamba would make it possible to build a heavy combat fitting and still retain a top speed well over 600 m/s. If this is desirable can be debated, I think it's necessary because speed is the only thing the Mamba has going fort it compared to the FdL.

You don't seem to be understanding what this means.

An "Average" Mamba weighs around 500t.

If the minimum mass of 5A thrusters is 365t, that means you have potential to make a Mamba go faster by removing up to 135t from it's weight - either via outfitting or by FDev deciding to make the hull a bit lighter and/or changing the weight of the armor for it.
The lighter you make the ship, the faster it goes.
This seems reasonable to me.

If the minimum mass of 6A thrusters is 626t, that means pretty-much every Mamba build will be under the minimum mass and be capable of the maximum speed available from the thrusters.
You are, effectively, asking for something that would allow players to throw anything on their ship without compromising it's speed.
It doesn't matter how heavy you make your ship. It still goes the same speed.
This doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Not only does a ship need to be balanced against other ships but it also needs to be balanced against other builds of the same ship too.
A lightweight Mamba needs to be faster than a heavily armored Mamba.

This would not be possible after fitting C6 thrusters.

 

[Stealthie]

Genuine question related to all of this :

What do you guys thing of adding C4 and C5 enhanced performance drives with crazy power consumption ?

On a selfish level, I'd like it 'cos I like building fast ships.

It's not really going to help with this issue, though, cos you'd be able to bung them on the FdL, Chieftain and other ships intended for a similar role too.

Fundamentally, the Mamba is a nice ship but it needs fixing so it's not a toaster-oven and then it needs some other perk to make up for it's other drawbacks (it's big and not as agile as the FdL).
Assuming they fix the heat issues, maybe knocking 50t off the hull mass would be enough to give it a big enough speed boost to offset it's other drawbacks and also help with it's puny jump-range too?

 

[znôrt]

Kinda gets me worried about the Panther Clipper (Also Zorgon Peterson) Clearly a lot of time and effort has gone into the design of the ships, but there is just something about those designs that I don't like.

this just means how subjective beauty is. i like all zp ships, most delacys, many core dynamics and lakons (not including the ridiculous alliance crabs) but absolutely dread all saud and gutamaya except the ieagle.

The Mamba in VR feels like I am sitting in a Ferrari that is the size of an apartment building.

the modest hauler is just lovely, peeking out of that tin feels like driving around in one of these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cit...KHYnBB1oQ9QEwAnoECAUQBg#imgrc=n5G3rg2wl4GzDM:

 

[777Driver]

Btw Driver, I've just been to Tenerife on holiday...it was awesome! What's that? You've just come back from Elevenerife & had an even awesomer (sic) time?!...D'oh! You win again!!!

Mate, just spat my coffee over someone else's surface pro, am not paying for it! My moto is type fast edit later... Or maybe it is type sober, edit drunk... Something like that..

 

[Muetdhiver]

On a selfish level, I'd like it 'cos I like building fast ships.

It's not really going to help with this issue, though, cos you'd be able to bung them on the FdL, Chieftain and other ships intended for a similar role too.

Fundamentally, the Mamba is a nice ship but it needs fixing so it's not a toaster-oven and then it needs some other perk to make up for it's other drawbacks (it's big and not as agile as the FdL).
Assuming they fix the heat issues, maybe knocking 50t off the hull mass would be enough to give it a big enough speed boost to offset it's other drawbacks and also help with it's puny jump-range too?

I would say, Knock down 50t of hull mass, add 10-15m/s base speed, and one extra C2. That would make it work as a combat ship (not as a racer though, racers will remain a nice for the eagles and iCourrier).

And yeah, C4-C5 enhanced drives would be problematic if accessible on most ships. Unelss... they consume so much power that heavy compromises have to be made for using it in combat.
But it would be probably opening a can of worm best left sealed in a dark place.

There is an other possibility though, that could be very interesting :

Give it C6 thruster but also increase the hull mass to 300 tons (like the Orca) and give it a C5 FSD. Add 1C2 slot and 10-15 m/s base speed.

That would give us a fast combat ship, with good range and decent at exploration-racing (Orca like). Given the rather nice canopy it could make for a nice
exploration yacht.

 

[Stealthie]

There is an other possibility though, that could be very interesting :

Give it C6 thruster but also increase the hull mass to 300 tons (like the Orca) and give it a C5 FSD. Add 1C2 slot and 10-15 m/s base speed.

Ugh!

Yeah, I did consider that too but it'd mean the ship would be kind of bloating into something it doesn't seem like it was intended to be.

You don't create an F1 car by building something that weighs 5t and then sticking a 3,000hp engine in it (even if the rules allowed it).

Simply by making the Mamba a physically large ship, I think FDev have come perilously close to missing the point of a "racing ship" and the last thing it needs is to add weight to it, even if they then fit bigger thrusters.

If it was up to me, I would have chopped the rear "pontoons" off the ship and fitted the thrusters either side of the cockpit to make it roughly the same size as an FdL.
I'd then have given it slightly smaller internals to reflect the fact that a racing vehicle isn't likely to have much internal space.
I'd then give it a C5 PP and PDist and knocked at least 50 tonnes off the weight.

That way, you'd end up with a ship that trades power for speed and is otherwise fairly well-balanced against the FdL.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Yeah, making it heavier seems like a weird idea. But it would work and open the yacht role.
OTOH, I would be fine with a FDL spinoff, if it's powerlevel is on par with it.

Frankly, it would not bother me much, given that there already is the case of Anaconda "magical" hull.

 

[Aashenfox]

Yeah, making it heavier seems like a weird idea. But it would work and open the yacht role.
OTOH, I would be fine with a FDL spinoff, if it's powerlevel is on par with it.

Frankly, it would not bother me much, given that there already is the case of Anaconda "magical" hull.

The Anaconda's magical hull bothers me a lot. Harumph. I don't agree that glaring game bugs should be left in just because 'people are in the black'. FD should offer to have them open tickets, get transferred to the bubble and then back to where they were once they've re-outfitted.