Increase risk of becoming trapped in stars

[Guest 161958]

After finding out you can cool down inside a g star exclusion zone, I propose to make all stars dangerous as dwarves with of course varying degrees of gravitational and temperature hazards, dwarves neutron and black holes being the most dangerous.

Pasted this argument up from the beta feedback where I was belittled left and right for expressing my humble opinion because people want it risk free.

taking as example the sun, it is hot enough to get that small number followed by a percentage you see close to the hud to jump up. Should go up just being that close and yet I am making it easier also understanding playability reasons by asking to go up only with fsd on. (Already assuming that in the future our ships are made of an incredible material which can withstand such temperatures, ESPECIALLY the cockpit...).

Remember, we are not in SuperCruise where we can only imagine through lore what happens. But in deep space....When you might get trapped..

Earth is 500 ls apart from the sun. Without atmosphere we would boil during the day without spacesuits to temperatures approximately close to that of the moon.

 

[Lestat]

Maybe what you need to do is read back in older topics about people being trapped and maybe you understand why people ask to have it fixed.

 

[Guest 161958]

Maybe what you need to do is read back in older topics about people being trapped and maybe you understand why people ask to have it fixed.

Care to link? And care to explain why same treatment was not reserved to dwarves and neutron stars?

Or is it just people saying they are “annoyed”?

 

[Lestat]

Care to link? And care to explain why same treatment was not reserved to dwarves and neutron stars?

You are the one bringing up the ideas. But the best idea when you bring up an Idea is for YOU to do the research before posting your idea. Happy researching.

 

[varonica]

Pasted this argument up from the beta feedback where I was belittled left and right for expressing my humble opinion because people want it risk free.

Most experienced players don't want the game risk free.

One of the things you have to be careful of when inserting risk, however, is that you don't make it a 100% certain death for beginners because we need them to continue playing. It's already a hard entry for a computer game, white dwarfs and neutron stars are a challenge for experienced players, you put risks in appropriate places, not right in front of a sidewinder being flown by a beginner. I personally think black holes should be much more dangerous but they are relatively rare, but you want beginners to survive long enough to learn to fuel scoop.

 

[Guest 161958]

Most experienced players don't want the game risk free.

One of the things you have to be careful of when inserting risk, however, is that you don't make it a 100% certain death for beginners because we need them to continue playing. It's already a hard entry for a computer game, white dwarfs and neutron stars are a challenge for experienced players, you put risks in appropriate places, not right in front of a sidewinder being flown by a beginner. I personally think black holes should be much more dangerous but they are relatively rare, but you want beginners to survive long enough to learn to fuel scoop.

I understand the new players preoccupation but it baffles me that an engaging mechanic is thrown away when it could be solved with a tutorial explaining the risks or gracing a young player for the first times he/she scoops.

I did not propose 100% death chance though.

You are the one bringing up the ideas. But the best idea when you bring up an Idea is for YOU to do the research before posting your idea. Happy researching.

Lestat, as always your awkward thirst for flame wars precedes you. Care to discuss instead of flaming or just keep trying to hijack my proposal cause you do not like it?

 

[Misty_Dark]

Lestat, as always your awkward thirst for flame wars precedes you. Care to discuss instead of flaming or just keep trying to hijack my proposal cause you do not like it?

This I do not really get, why should Lestat do the leg work for you? Sure he could have been a bit more friendly about this, but in the end, you are now going for the "risk free" option here. You do not appear to want to spend some time searching the forum, and rather seems to expect someone else to do it for you. I do get that it can be tricky to find stuff, what keywords to use etc.

 

[varonica]

I did not propose 100% death chance though.

But it will be for a beginner, tutorials don't explain risks very well, I had a few deaths my first few times out in the live game and that was after doing all the tutorials, this is the reason why most MMO's start players in environments that are almost completely harmless, but a beginner in Elite is already flying into an environment that will almost certainly kill them a few times already, throwing death stars in thier faces the first jump they attempt is a bit much.

But realistically a sophisticated space ship will drop you out of SC if you get to close to a star to avoid destroying the ship anyway, it's certainly not an unreasonable mechanic in a civilisation that routinely jumps between stars like we cross the road, and if a player chooses to override that safety feature by diving into a neutron star or white dwarf to get an extra boost that's up to them, a deliberate risk. Having other dangers out there that can cause serious problems to a careless or inattentive CMDR is certainly something I would support, but any dangers in the game should be designed in such a way that a careful CMDR can avoid them without to much trouble. Being a year plus out in the black doing a long range survey if there was even a small chance of unavoidable damage would be a thing of the past, it would build up over thousands of jump to eventually destroy ships with no ability of the pilots to prevent it.

Basically to sum up, yes more danger, but it would have to be very carefully implemented, and no more danger in the bubble at all really, most of those systems would have been surveyed and charted to within an inch of their life and any dangers either taken into account by the nav computer or removed entirely, making it a relatively safe area to travel in, well except for pirates and pilot error of course.

 

[Jaylem]

Lestat, as always your awkward thirst for flame wars precedes you. Care to discuss instead of flaming or just keep trying to hijack my proposal cause you do not like it?

I think you are highly confused with the intention of the suggestion forum, for one, people have a right to debate a topic if they feel. to be proceeded with antagonistic (or in this case belittling) remarks is not acceptable. If you do not do the research on past topics before posting that is YOUR lack of responsibility. It is not up to Lestat or anyone else for that matter to do it for you...

I suppose it is fair for a reason to be provided to end this matter, the reason why the distance was expanded from stars was that in certain systems (such as close binary's) explorers would get wedged between stars and have a 100% chance of death losing data and time of their trip. white dwarfs and neutrons are much the same, you will be pushed outward upon arriving in system, you can get close due to the cone jet FSD boost unique to these star types.

What you are suggesting is just another way for the game to take a step back again for no other reason than to spite explorers or the general player population. very much like your #NERFTHEANACONDA suggestion (yes, I will always remember that one) that only spiralled negatively against your reputation. and given your reflection of how you treat people in past topics is it any wonder that you get negative responses?


Please be respectful of other people on the forum, no matter their views or opinions.

 

[Guest 161958]

This I do not really get, why should Lestat do the leg work for you? Sure he could have been a bit more friendly about this, but in the end, you are now going for the "risk free" option here. You do not appear to want to spend some time searching the forum, and rather seems to expect someone else to do it for you. I do get that it can be tricky to find stuff, what keywords to use etc.

I have searched before posting this thread as much as my time permitted, and found no reasonable and satisfactory explanation and thought of discussing it again, especially in light of the new 3.3 update mechanics. I asked Lestat if he could provide a link to a post which could give a good explanation to turn down my proposal and was met with THAT reaction.

And as the icing on the cake, nobody debating and building on my proposed solution of making a special young status to grace new players from risk for some time or to improve tutorials. Just reprimands of being respectful while others are being disrespectful towards me for my ideas. Ashaming.

 

[Guest 161958]

I think you are highly confused with the intention of the suggestion forum, for one, people have a right to debate a topic if they feel. to be proceeded with antagonistic (or in this case belittling) remarks is not acceptable. If you do not do the research on past topics before posting that is YOUR lack of responsibility. It is not up to Lestat or anyone else for that matter to do it for you...

I suppose it is fair for a reason to be provided to end this matter, the reason why the distance was expanded from stars was that in certain systems (such as close binary's) explorers would get wedged between stars and have a 100% chance of death losing data and time of their trip. white dwarfs and neutrons are much the same, you will be pushed outward upon arriving in system, you can get close due to the cone jet FSD boost unique to these star types.

What you are suggesting is just another way for the game to take a step back again for no other reason than to spite explorers or the general player population. very much like your #NERFTHEANACONDA suggestion (yes, I will always remember that one) that only spiralled negatively against your reputation. and given your reflection of how you treat people in past topics is it any wonder that you get negative responses?


Please be respectful of other people on the forum, no matter their views or opinions.

Of course you should remember that, one of the finest example of occultation of reason by denying proof (Sandro's take on the conda, dev pointing out the community would backlash if the anaconda received a balance pass) and evidence that people could give to avoid 400t hull mass rightful edit.

True reason I get negative responses is because my tastes are unpopular with gimme it all easily crowd, which has grown larger and larger. People who agree with me just get bored to answer your tricks to sway the discussion from reasonable debate to push their own point.

I have changed idea in other threads where people brought me inoppugnable counter arguments or I discovered a fault in my understanding of the game.

But if you tell me how to be a good boy and ignore my reasoning and points, what constructive discussion can we have? None.

What I have suggested you probably did not even read judging by your reply.

I am not asking for a 100% death chance near stars. I am asking to increase the risk as it is non-existant now.

I would gladly take what you consider a step back if the game improves. The reason you bring is not satisfactory, cutting a feature is not a solution. I am trying to propose suggestions and alternatives to cutting a limb and keep it healthy.

Isn't it why this forum section is called "suggestions and feature requests"? Yes.

Also c’mon, you tell me to not be disrespectful after all your posts? And clearly I was not the one to antagonize in this thread.

 

[Guest 161958]

But it will be for a beginner, tutorials don't explain risks very well, I had a few deaths my first few times out in the live game and that was after doing all the tutorials, this is the reason why most MMO's start players in environments that are almost completely harmless, but a beginner in Elite is already flying into an environment that will almost certainly kill them a few times already, throwing death stars in thier faces the first jump they attempt is a bit much.

But realistically a sophisticated space ship will drop you out of SC if you get to close to a star to avoid destroying the ship anyway, it's certainly not an unreasonable mechanic in a civilisation that routinely jumps between stars like we cross the road, and if a player chooses to override that safety feature by diving into a neutron star or white dwarf to get an extra boost that's up to them, a deliberate risk. Having other dangers out there that can cause serious problems to a careless or inattentive CMDR is certainly something I would support, but any dangers in the game should be designed in such a way that a careful CMDR can avoid them without to much trouble. Being a year plus out in the black doing a long range survey if there was even a small chance of unavoidable damage would be a thing of the past, it would build up over thousands of jump to eventually destroy ships with no ability of the pilots to prevent it.

Basically to sum up, yes more danger, but it would have to be very carefully implemented, and no more danger in the bubble at all really, most of those systems would have been surveyed and charted to within an inch of their life and any dangers either taken into account by the nav computer or removed entirely, making it a relatively safe area to travel in, well except for pirates and pilot error of course.

yes of course careful implementation would be a must, but I think it is a stretch to compare ED to MMOs. Elite Dangerous is not an mmo.

But please read my proposals thoroughly. I am not debating the current sc mechanics, I am debating the fact that at that distance, in normal space, a ship can cool down even with an alcubierre drive on.
Too forgiving.

Of course we can avoid total realism in favor of playability to some extent, but in the case I raised I think it is too much towards playability to almost becoming ridiculous.

Putting some healthy risk in it which seasoned explorers would be aware of and know how to deal with and improving the tutorials or giving players a young status so they can be graced the first time sounds very reasonable to me.

 

[varonica]

True reason I get negative responses is because my tastes are unpopular with gimme it all easily crowd, which has grown larger and larger. People who agree with me just get bored to answer your tricks to sway the discussion from reasonable debate to push their own point.

And yet from my experience Lestat is the exact opposite of the"gimme it all easily" crowd.

And now you insult all the opponents of this particular idea by claiming they are using "tricks" to discourage people who agree with on this and other ideas from speaking up on your side. I have explained my reasons, I can't see any of your points making any difference to them except to add unnecessary complications to the game. SO I suggest being less confrontational and insulting and more engaging.

 

[varonica]

Putting some healthy risk in it which seasoned explorers would be aware of and know how to deal with and improving the tutorials or giving players a young status so they can be graced the first time sounds very reasonable to me.

How do you give a player a "young status", that seems needlessly complicated and difficult to implement game wise, and being young doesn't necessarily imply helplessness, plenty of players do iron man on one character and routinely restart, how do you then make their game play satisfying from the restart? How do you define young? By rank, which one? It's possible I could be both young and experienced at the same time if you use combat rank, at which I am still novice, or hours played, which affects iron man mode?

Just saying "young status" doesn't really define anything meaningful at all, would you like flesh out exactly what you mean by "young status"

 

[Guest 161958]

And yet from my experience Lestat is the exact opposite of the"gimme it all easily" crowd.

And now you insult all the opponents of this particular idea by claiming they are using "tricks" to discourage people who agree with on this and other ideas from speaking up on your side. I have explained my reasons, I can't see any of your points making any difference to them except to add unnecessary complications to the game. SO I suggest being less confrontational and insulting and more engaging.

First of all, I see no opponents when I post proposals. The antagonizing comes from the attacks I receive for having unpopular views.

You have explained your reasons, I read it, I proposed a solution to your remarks.

I appreciate you took the time to raise questions on my proposal instead of saying "GO RESEARCH and don't bother" with the I know it all and war veteran attitude so popular in this forum.

I can understand you do not like/need what I like/need to have fun in this game, but then do not participate if all you do is diverting attention from my proposal to lecture me "on the correct use of the forums and required behaviour as a good boy".

I am not insulting, it is my experience. You take it as an insult and I cannot do anything about it. Lestat has been extremely rude when I tried to propose things which effectively make the game riskier and harder, hence from my point of view he speaks like one on the gimme it all easily crowd by avoiding any debate on features or proposal he does not appreciate.
And yet I am the one being scolded. What the #### are you a cartel defending your forum friends?

 

[Guest 161958]

How do you give a player a "young status", that seems needlessly complicated and difficult to implement game wise, and being young doesn't necessarily imply helplessness, plenty of players do iron man on one character and routinely restart, how do you then make their game play satisfying from the restart? How do you define young? By rank, which one? It's possible I could be both young and experienced at the same time if you use combat rank, at which I am still novice, or hours played, which affects iron man mode?

Just saying "young status" doesn't really define anything meaningful at all, would you like flesh out exactly what you mean by "young status"

Yes good points.
Of course I did not flesh it out, I post proposals here for that very same reason. Other commanders scrutinize my proposal and find problems I might not have calculated and we can flesh it out together. Same thing I do when I read other proposals, I raise questions based on my own experience.

It's called brain storming.

No wonder FD ignores them, everybody has been busy scolding me. What the hell a dev cares? He is looking for good ideas here. Not anymore I bet.

By rank it's a good idea I believe, and also the time is good (we know there is a way to count hours played with the notoriety system). It would work I think no?

The iron man on the character is an extreme situation, but to solve it, there might be a popup on cmdr creation to choose if one wants to be babysitted as it is the first time or not.

What do you think?

 

[varonica]

Yes good points.
Of course I did not flesh it out, I post proposals here for that very same reason. Other commanders scrutinize my proposal and find problems I might not have calculated and we can flesh it out together. Same thing I do when I read other proposals, I raise questions based on my own experience.

It's called brain storming.

No wonder FD ignores them, everybody has been busy scolding me. What the hell a dev cares? He is looking for good ideas here. Not anymore I bet.

By rank it's a good idea I believe, and also the time is good (we know there is a way to count hours played with the notoriety system). It would work I think no?

The iron man on the character is an extreme situation, but to solve it, there might be a popup on cmdr creation to choose if one wants to be babysitted as it is the first time or not.

What do you think?

You see here's the problem, I am not here to help you flesh out your idea, I am opposed to your idea, I am willing to read it and comment on why I think it's wrong or flawed, but I am not here to help you. Brainstorming is usually done before putting a proposal forward for critical comment, you take the criticisms on board with your "brainstorming group" and bring it back with suggested changes and reasons why you think it's a good idea.

To throw an idea out that a lot of people disagree with and then expect those very same people to help you with your idea is the opposite of what you should be doing. You need to be trying to convince us why your idea is a good idea and we should support it, and that actually involves having solutions to problems we might present when we criticise it. I'll leave it here now, there doesn't seem much point in continuing, while I can agree we need more danger, I can't agree with your idea in principal I am afraid.

 

[Guest 161958]

You see here's the problem, I am not here to help you flesh out your idea, I am opposed to your idea, I am willing to read it and comment on why I think it's wrong or flawed, but I am not here to help you. Brainstorming is usually done before putting a proposal forward for critical comment, you take the criticisms on board with your "brainstorming group" and bring it back with suggested changes and reasons why you think it's a good idea.

To throw an idea out that a lot of people disagree with and then expect those very same people to help you with your idea is the opposite of what you should be doing. You need to be trying to convince us why your idea is a good idea and we should support it, and that actually involves having solutions to problems we might present when we criticise it. I'll leave it here now, there doesn't seem much point in continuing, while I can agree we need more danger, I can't agree with your idea in principal I am afraid.

I am not asking for your help or anybody's, I am all ears for comments from people who might have made experiences I missed. I am not pushing my idea whatsoever, you misunderstand me.

I value your opinion and I expect others to do the same with mine, but it looks like you have decided mine is a bad idea even when I offered you solutions to the flaws you showed me instead of discussing them? You only want to oppose and antagonize me I see.

As I stated, if another cmdr points out a flaw in my idea I cannot find a reasonable solution for, I would gladly trash it, but so far nobody was able to do so.

Ok, bye then.

 

[varonica]

You only want to oppose and antagonize me I see.

If you think people opposing your ideas are antagonising you then maybe this is the wrong place, maybe you don't want a "discussion" forum, where opposing positions and ideas can be discussed. You have put forward a few suggestions on how to fix problems created by implementing an idea that no-one else wants. These problems don't exist unless your idea that nobody else actually wants is implemented. I didn't personally think much of the suggestions to fix the problems created, pointed out where the problems were and then you posted;

Other commanders scrutinize my proposal and find problems I might not have calculated and we can flesh it out together.

Is that not asking for help?

I am opposed to your idea because a) in context it doesn't make any sense, jumping between systems is perfectly safe in the elite universe except in a few exceptional cases, after all just look at all those wedding barges out there. So b) you are just adding danger for dangers sake at every jump, it isn't something we need to do, and c) implementing it will create many problems that will require further coding to resolve for a mechanic that's largely superfluous and probably unwanted by the majority of players.

I think that sums up everything I have been saying since the thread started, your job here isn't to workout the problems and fix them, your first job is to convince other players that it's a good idea, if you fail on that then any discussion regarding problems and how to fix them become pointless.

 

[aries_four]

If people want an casual space sim, there are light and easy ones out there. If people want realism, the play Elite. I think stars need to be more little more 'Dangerous'. It will give more of a risk/reward dynamic especially for explorer types like me. I was surprised when I could get super close to a star without getting stuck in its gravity (but can get mass-locked by nearby ships and stations?). I was SUPER surprised too when I learned that Black holes posed almost no threat, except for a little heat damage.