Starlight tints background skybox - Lighting issues

Totally. I don't have a degree in computer science or studied the subject, at all.

No need to have doctorate in first world problems for an aesthetic consideration.

Just look at the comparison screen shots and think to yourself is the top one better or the bottom one, or do they both have equal merit in their own way. Does one of them hurt you right in your immershun by being a bit redder than the other or is that in fact "very funky".

I'm firmly in the very funky camp.
 
Way to quote me out of context. What is this, Fox News?

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Also, I never said you needed a doctorate in anything to form an opinion about the aesthetics. And for the most part I like the new aesthetics, except the tinting of the skybox which should not really occur.

I think he agreed with you, not sure though, being a non native English speaker...
 
I'm not 100% sure about that. They seem to have some control as to how much the current star affects overall lighting, as the further you get from the star the less it affects lighting.

But what do I know. Graphical computing is super duper easy, as is all software engineering. Simple, streamlined and everyone knows everything about all subjects.

man, this discussion really wants me to reinstall Renderdoc again to check out at what step the effect is applied.

@da_wae Well, you're correct that it's rarely wise to claim 100% certainty about these things :), but I'm currently developing a piece of video/image processing software based on GLSL shaders. I'm only ever working in 2D, but the shaders that I create include color correction filters. I'm around 99% certain that what we're seeing are post-rasterization fragment/pixel shaders applied after the 3D data has been converted to a 2D image, so right at the end of the pipeline. These can be dynamic and you can feed it variables from the game in real-time - for example, reducing the overall magnitude of the filter as the player moves away from the star, which appears to be what's happening. You can do all manner of sophisticated things, such as isolate the shadows, mids and highlights and apply different values to each, but you're just acting on pixels. The benefit is that you can alter the image in pretty dramatic ways and computationally it's fairly cheap. I can't see any way of completely and cleanly isolating elements from earlier stages in the pipeline, especially since we're dealing with semi-transparent elements.

Assuming that this is the case, I can understand FD's rationale for introducing it, but they must also be aware of its shortcomings. Clearly they feel that the unnatural looking changes to the HUD and skybox are worth it. I can't see any "fix" other than reducing the effect significantly (which defeats the purpose) or disabling the filters. :(
 
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Totally. I don't have a degree in computer science or studied the subject, at all.

As somebody who does have degrees in both CS and molecular genetics I can believe that even though I suspect you were aiming at sarcasm. Your analyses are flawed and riddled with error, you cherry-pick evidence which makes you no scientist in any discipline. I apologize profoundly for the seeming ad hom, but if you're going to claim the mantle of academia to support your statements, you should restrict the statements you make under that mantle to those that can be supported by it.

ETA: Think of this as peer review.
 
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No need to have doctorate in first world problems for an aesthetic consideration.

Just look at the comparison screen shots and think to yourself is the top one better or the bottom one, or do they both have equal merit in their own way. Does one of them hurt you right in your immershun by being a bit redder than the other or is that in fact "very funky".

I'm firmly in the very funky camp.

Now, if we're talking about making Elite funky... you could win me over.

[video=youtube;GT3ecv01xDE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3ecv01xDE[/video]

@8:19 It's glorious.
 
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@da_wae Well, you're correct that it's rarely wise to claim 100% certainty about these things :), but I'm currently developing a piece of video/image processing software based on GLSL shaders. I'm only ever working in 2D, but the shaders that I create include color correction filters. I'm around 99% certain that what we're seeing are post-rasterization fragment/pixel shaders applied after the 3D data has been converted to a 2D image, so right at the end of the pipeline. These can be dynamic and you can feed it variables from the game in real-time - for example, reducing the overall magnitude of the filter as the player moves away from the star, which appears to be what's happening. You can do all manner of the sophisticated things, such as isolate the shadows, mids and highlights and apply different values to each, but you're just acting on pixels. The benefit is that you can alter the image in pretty dramatic ways and computationally it's fairly cheap. I can't see any way of completely and cleanly isolating elements from earlier stages in the pipeline, especially since we're dealing with semi-transparent elements.

Assuming that this is the case, I can understand FD's rationale for introducing it, but they must also be aware of it's shortcomings. Clearly they feel that the unnatural looking changes to the HUD and skybox are worth it. I can't see any "fix" other than reducing the effect significantly (which defeats the purpose) or disabling the filters. :(

I see. I mean, it seems to me (from your description) that the only way they'd be able to keep the "starlight affects overall light color but not affect skybox" would be to render the skybox after applying the post-rasterization filters to the main viewport and compose the images. Not sure how feasible that would be as it seems like it would add a lot of extra complexity (similar in some ways to how cel-shading works).

It seems they're reaching the technical limits of the Cobra engine.
 
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As somebody who does have degrees in both CS and molecular genetics I can believe that even though I suspect you were aiming at sarcasm. Your analyses are flawed and riddled with error, you cherry-pick evidence which makes you no scientist in any discipline. I apologize profoundly for the seeming ad hom, but if you're going to claim the mantle of academia to support your statements, you should restrict the statements you make under that mantle to those that can be supported by it.

ETA: Think of this as peer review.

I did not claim a particular high mantle of academia (my expertise is not computer graphics, it's distributed systems), but I know enough about the subject matter to formulate informed opinions / hypothesis.

Good thing we have you here to peer review everyone, though.

Can I send you some DNA and you do a 23andMe thing? I mean you do have both degrees.
 
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No need to have doctorate in first world problems for an aesthetic consideration.

Just look at the comparison screen shots and think to yourself is the top one better or the bottom one, or do they both have equal merit in their own way. Does one of them hurt you right in your immershun by being a bit redder than the other or is that in fact "very funky".

I'm firmly in the very funky camp.
[up]
 
I see. I mean, it seems to me (from your description) that the only way they'd be able to keep the "starlight affects overall light color but not affect skybox" would be to render the skybox after applying the post-rasterization filters to the main viewport and compose the images. Not sure how feasible that would be as it seems like it would add a lot of extra complexity (similar in some ways to how cel-shading works).

It seems they're reaching the technical limits of the Cobra engine.

Yeah – as I said, I work solely in 2D, but I imagine that any clever attempt to circumvent these limitations would undermine their benefits in terms of computational efficiency, if it were possible at all, which I doubt. :)

As you say, the game is already manipulating the values (distance from star etc), so it shouldn't be too complicated to provide player access to the overall magnitude of the filter, including a value of 0! ;) Anyway, there's no point banging on about it... we'll see.
 
Can I send you some DNA and you do a 23andMe thing? I mean you do have both degrees.

If you want, sure. I was sequencing DNA before the genome project ever got started, both the common Sanger method and also the Maxam-Gilbert technique. Would take me a while to do more than basic restriction profiles (more or less what forensic labs do) without the newer automatic reading machines but if I gave you a result it would be accurate. If you're interested in a particular gene for which I could synthesize specific primers the result would be faster. I ended up combining the two fields because there's a lot of similarity in the way you need to think for code and genetics. Only the "chips" instruction sets are different, really.
 
If you want, sure. I was sequencing DNA before the genome project ever got started, both the common Sanger method and also the Maxam-Gilbert technique. Would take me a while to do more than basic restriction profiles (more or less what forensic labs do) without the newer automatic reading machines but if I gave you a result it would be accurate. If you're interested in a particular gene for which I could synthesize specific primers the result would be faster. I ended up combining the two fields because there's a lot of similarity in the way you need to think for code and genetics. Only the "chips" instruction sets are different, really.

I'll just leave this here...
tenor.gif
 
Not sure if it's worth the trouble tbh, seeing how FDev has a backlog that's measured in years and we're apparently just a vocal minority (yeah, right, because everyone who doesn't voice an opinion favors the new system). I'll probably put one up later this evening since i now have the necessary screenshots to document the issue.

Please do.
 
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LOL - you called me on it thinking I was fibbing at ya.. you discovered I wasn't. Leave whatever ya like:)

I didn't mean to "call you out", it was always meant as a joke.
I never really thought you'd lie about something like this, as it would be easy for anyone to catch any lie regarding both fields [haha]

Nice tinfoil hat tho.

Edit: I thought it was obvious I was joking when I said "do a 23andMe thing" - since that hardly a scientific way of describing the process LMAO [haha]
 
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Wow. 10 pages. That's usually where a thread derails and people start bickering and taking apart each other's opinions and points, but this one... Oh, wait!

Whoever likes the tinting thing clearly isn't much into Elite's realistic approach, which is just fine, because it's a game.
For me, and loads of other people, that realism is the whole joy of the game and what makes it special, and thus this issue matters a great deal.

Not too hard to understand I guess.


Also, someone mentioned earlier the effect would fade with distance from the sun, and it does, but I don't think it ever fades completely and if you are in Earth Orbit, which is one astronomical unit away from the sun, which is about 500ls, the yellow tint is still very much visible. And the only gas around Earth dense enough to change the colour of the light arriving there is its Atmosphere, and yeah, the sun is red when settiing and rising in there. But if you look at the night sky, the stars are not tinted, and if you are remote enough to see the Milky Way, it's not tinted either. And if you are on the ISS, in Earth Orbit, the Milky Way looks like this:

iss041e045469.jpg
 
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Wow. 10 pages. That's usually where a thread derails and people start bickering and taking apart each other's opinions and points, but this one... Oh, wait!

Whoever likes the tinting thing clearly isn't much into Elite's realistic approach, which is just fine, because it's a game.
For me, and loads of other people, that realism is the whole joy of the game and what makes it special, and thus this issue matters a great deal.

Not too hard to understand I guess.

Add a toggle for it, everyone's a winner. Except for anyone who complained a lot about ED being all the same or too beige in the past. Their toggle should be locked in disco mode.
 
Add a toggle for it, everyone's a winner. Except for anyone who complained a lot about ED being all the same or too beige in the past. Their toggle should be locked in disco mode.

I'm all for a toggle. Have the galaxy as fantasy as you like, as long as it's not on my screen. :)
 
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