There needs to be a credit sink

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Financial concerns are supposed to be a big part of Elite games.

ED currently isn't about the money, and this is an enormous problem with it.

An Elite game without an economy is a travesty!

They should reboot the whole economy, well once they have one, by devaluing the current credit and issuing new currency.

i just noticed your reply after putting in mine. i fully agree!.

it is also completely plausible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic

replace war reparations with thargoid incursion costs

 

[oscarolim]

Carriers are only for squadrons. They already confirmed carriers won't be available for solo players.
And sending out pilots for rare items isn't exactly a sink, more the opposite - money on cooldown.

But I see your point - eventually you have A-rated all your big ships and still got a few billions sitting in your pocket and don't know what to spend it on.

Something like a personal star port or so would be nice, or a place where you can stash stuff, customisable moon base would be sweet too.

There are single player squadrons, so...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

They can certainly try. It won't make a blind bit of difference. They're 4 years down the road. In that time they've rewritten C&P and Engineers. And in fairness added quite a lot. Their mission system is borked and not fit for purpose.

Before they could ever imagine to fire that shot, they need to be ready for the huge onslaught. To be ready they need to implement balance across the board. I have seen nothing in the entire four years that convinces me they have the where-with-all to accomplish such a task. They'd need to revisit every facet of credit earnings. Nothing they do is without blatant bugs. They lack quality of even the most basic degree, so, no, I don't see this ever happenning. And being honest, I don't think they have the stomach for it. While not a 'Elite is dying' thing, Elite is definitely not foremost either. There's a new title from them in next quarter, so, while I see Elite continueing to have attention, I do wonder, How much?


And even if they did manage it... I for example on one account have 4 Cutters. Each an asset of 1.4bn ? That's over 5bn of creidts. If they did wipe credits, I'd still have 4 Cutters worth of whatever imaginary credit they use. And that's not to mention 3 Condas, 5 Pythons, and whatever else I have, plus my liquid assets which would have to be converted to their new currency. Their new as you call it de-valued currency would be huge for those players with huge fleets, as they could simply convert storage to liquid assets. And Frontier can't devalue the ships. The ships are what Elite what it is.

So you'd still have many many players with so many assets as to make the entire project unviable.

And they can't simply wipe all assets either.. Can you imagine the player reaction to that?

There is one viable way... And some will like it.. some won't.. A new Elite Title...

however I agree with this too........

 

[Bigmaec]

Why do we need a new economy though?

I mean, it's a game, a simulation to fly spaceships. It's not the X-series, no space industry simulation.
You need credits for new ships, and rebuys.

Rebuys basically only matter to PvP and new players.

New ships arguably are something FD doesn't want to cut access to, as it delivers cash via store.
That's good for the whole playerbase in the end.

And considering the constant threads about "the grind" and the will to fly be biggest bestest ships by many (most?) CMDRs
I don't see FD putting that behind a "new economy grindwall" and I don't see the need either.

The economy is bonkers, granted, several things make no sense and a lot of missions are basically ignored, as well as playstyles
(piracy anyone? although that got better now...). But that is imho more a balancing thing then something that needs a complete rework.

So why should we get a economy reboot? For what purpose?

 

[Sylow]

They should reboot the whole economy, well once they have one, by devaluing the current credit and issuing new currency.

.
They already did so. Just many people just have not noticed.
.
Is it really credits which limit you from creating a massive fleet of perfectly set up and engineered ships? Or might it rather be engineering materials, which prevents you to have half a dozen of every ship type, engineered to the T?
.
I know there's also some players who have a whole armada of fully engineered ships, but their number is much lower than of those who can easily afford to quickly a-rate another dozen of ships.
.

 

[Bigmaec]

.
They already did so. People just have not noticed.
.
Is it really credits which limit you from creating a massive fleet of perfectly set up and engineered ships? Or might it rather be engineering materials, which prevents you to have half a dozen of every ship type, engineered to the T?
.

Neither does though, especially not with the new patch. I never before had maxed out so many G5 mats

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Why do we need an economy though?
?

maybe you dont.... it all depends on what you view elite as being ... If to you if it is just a space ship flying game with pvp pew pew where losing a ship isnt a big deal then i guess you dont (and indeed a sensible economy may actively damage that game)

I play it as a pilot who for what ever reason got lucky inheriting an old space ship and my reason for existing is to try to build my wealth and gain a large portfolio of ships. Having an interesting and sensible economy is a huge deal to me and how i play the game.

 

[Jukelo]

Why do we need an economy though?

I mean, it's a game, a simulation to fly spaceships. It's not the X-series, no space industry simulation.
You need credits for new ships, and rebuys.

Rebuys basically only matter to PvP and new players.

You say this like it's just how things are and it's not a problem for you?

Rebuys aren't supposed to only matter to PVPers and new players. It's supposed to be something that you always keep at the back of your mind because losing your ship is supposed to be a possibility and supposed to sting.

You maybe weren't there at first, but there was a point where we still thought the security level of systems would play a role for traders: they would have to make the choice between security or profit. That is of course only a thing if, going into a low security system to look for higher profits, you actually run the risk of losing your ship and therefore hurting (or preferably erasing) your profit. Of course that doesn't happen, NPCs are incapable of interdicting the weakest of players, or of killing them before they can high wake out.

The OP is entirely right, and the simple answer to the money sink issue is: increase the frequency of rebuys and increase the cost to 50%. And by increase the frequency, I mean make them non-optional because ATM losing a ship is an entirely voluntary process.

 

[Bigmaec]

maybe you dont.... it all depends on what you view elite as being ... If to you if it is just a space ship flying game with pvp pew pew where losing a ship isnt a big deal then i guess you dont (and indeed a sensible economy may actively damage that game)

I play it as a pilot who for what ever reason got lucky inheriting an old space ship and my reason for existing is to try to build my wealth and gain a large portfolio of ships. Having an interesting and sensible economy is a huge deal to me and how i play the game.

Sure. I forgot an "new" in my post above. (edited it.)

The question is, is your speed of gaining wealth the correct one? Or mine? Or whomever's?
That's what I mean, why should the economy be rebooted? Your goals can be achieved by the current one,
and for many people the economy is too slow. Which is the correct way? That's not easy.

You say this like it's just how things are and it's not a problem for you?

Rebuys aren't supposed to only matter to PVPers and new players. It's supposed to be something that you always keep at the back of your mind because losing your ship is supposed to be a possibility and supposed to sting.

You maybe weren't there at first, but there was a point where we still thought the security level of systems would play a role for traders: they would have to make the choice between security or profit. That is of course only a thing if, going into a low security system to look for higher profits, you actually run the risk of losing your ship and therefore hurting (or preferably erasing) your profit. Of course that doesn't happen, NPCs are incapable of interdicting the weakest of players, or of killing them before they can high wake out.

The OP is entirely right, and the simple answer to the money sink issue is: increase the frequency of rebuys and increase the cost to 50%. And by increase the frequency, I mean make them non-optional.

For me the rebuys are no problem. I play to have fun. And I don't die in PvE. A tenfold increase doesn't matter to me.
It would drive me out of open, sure, and it would hurt new players. But I don't think it would be better for the game *shrugs*

 

[Jukelo]

Sure. I forgot an "new" in my post above. (edited it.)

The question is, is your speed of gaining wealth the correct one? Or mine? Or whomever's?
That's what I mean, why should the economy be rebooted? Your goals can be achieved by the current one,
and for many people the economy is too slow. Which is the correct way? That's not easy.

The correct answer is whatever it was David had in mind when he was still in charge of the game.

It's not what we have currently.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Sure. I forgot an "new" in my post above. (edited it.)

The question is, is your speed of gaining wealth the correct one? Or mine? Or whomever's?
That's what I mean, why should the economy be rebooted? Your goals can be achieved by the current one,
and for many people the economy is too slow. Which is the correct way? That's not easy.

I agree! that is the question isnt it, and it is absolutely not easy. FD have sold elite dangerous to a massive spectrum of players, many of which expect a very different game to others. I did not mean to say you were wrong and my way is right.

my way is right for me, and for me in general, whilst not perfect the economy in elite 1.0 was way better than it is now, with ship wear and tear really hurting etc. it took me 20hrs plus to upgrade my sidewinder and save for an eagle (I didnt use my Freagle). I was fine with that and loved it. It did get problematic post Asp level of ship however..... i did a semi restart 12 months or so ago and started with an imperial eagle e rated and 100 credits. it took me minutes to earn the money to fully upgrade it. and this made me sad!.

I wont change how i play and i do my best to enjoy the economy as best i can by giving myself convoluted and arbitrary rules (which is rubbish and i do not feel i should have to. i WANT to try to maximise my profit in the game but the game makes it so hard to NOT earn silly money it is a problem really)

however to go back to OP like i said the issue is, a credit sink to a player like sollisb with his billions of credits, would be an impossible goal for a player like me, unless i cheese the game like some of those billionaires to.

i will quit the game before i do that (indeed i nearly did quit the game after feeling i had to do the mode swapping mission exploit dance once to help a player faction win a system, it killed the game for me)

 

[Rat Catcher]

. Rebuys basically only matter to PvP and new players.

And the occasional White Dwarf eating your ship because you forgot to go fast enough... (not that it happened to me twice in the same session )

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Credits have to be plentiful and they have to be fast. Or the game would become even more unfriendly to new players than it already is. The learning curve already is steep, almost everyone around new players is now a veteran flying around in the best and baddest ships, setting the bar for new players to actually stand their ground in open incredibly high. New players, especially those that stick around are already too few.

You can't do a reset either, that would drive too many of the veterans off which the game lives off, me included. Everything I achieved in 4 years of time that noone is going to give me back going poof ? No thanks, uninstall and never buy an FD game again.

A restart can only happen in a new game, Elite 5, however you will call it. But that won't come any time soon, FD are not quite done with ED yet.

 

[Stinja]

Is it really credits which limit you from creating a massive fleet of perfectly set up and engineered ships? Or might it rather be engineering materials, which prevents you to have half a dozen of every ship type, engineered to the T?

Reminds me of this video:

[video=youtube;sumZLwFXJqE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sumZLwFXJqE[/video]

Designers build themselves into a corner, and keep adding new currencies to make older players not be able to buy stuff straight off. Look at Warframe as an example of multiple types of "money".

I'm still hoping FDev grow a pair, and the Thargoids swoop in, nuke the bubble (and all the banks), and players end up with zero credits and a single ship. Well give warning of impending doom, and let people move stuff to Colonia, but reset it with lore and decent warning.

 

[FoxtrotF]

Rebuys basically only matter to PvP and new players.

Nope, 50M rebuys, with current changes to mission board and nerf hauling wing missions, become a pain, especially if you are not a tos@er and playing couple of hours on weekends. FD need to stop be such fanatics in terms ingame credit and totally release this issue, so the player can earn how much money they want without stupid grind. And I say again that whole team who balancing missions and economy needs to be fired up. Or at minimum gift them sidewinders and force them to play their mechanics over and over again on their weekends.

 

[Bigmaec]

Nope, 50M rebuys, with current changes to mission board and nerf hauling wing missions, become a pain, especially if you are not a tos@ and playing couple of hours on weekends.

For a fifty million rebuy you have to fly a combat Corvette/Conda/Cutter and if you die in those ships (in PvE) you do something wrong.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Credits have to be plentiful and they have to be fast. Or the game would become even more unfriendly to new players than it already is. The learning curve already is steep, almost everyone around new players is now a veteran flying around in the best and baddest ships, setting the bar for new players to actually stand their ground in open incredibly high. New players, especially those that stick around are already too few.

You can't do a reset either, that would drive too many of the veterans off which the game lives off, me included. Everything I achieved in 4 years of time that noone is going to give me back going poof ? No thanks, uninstall and never buy an FD game again.

A restart can only happen in a new game, Elite 5, however you will call it. But that won't come any time soon, FD are not quite done with ED yet.

the thing you are missing, if i understand it correctly.... the game was meant to be "friendly" to new players by having the 1st 6 or so ships cheap as chips. you CAN lose even a cobra 3 and, even in 1.0 levels of economy the fee to recover was negligable.

as for players in open..... open is a choice no one is forcing players to stay there if they want to find their feet in another mode. That said that is another part of the game not working as david braben intended.

ships like the conda as i remember it were meant to be long term goals to aim for over many 100s of hrs.

also remember David Braben stated himself he did not view ED as an MMO in the usual sense of one.

 

[Jukelo]

For a fifty million rebuy you have to fly a combat Corvette/Conda/Cutter and if you die in those ships (in PvE) you do something wrong.

But don't you see how that, which is sadly too true, is wrong? Where is the challenge, the interest, the fun, if you can't actually lose, if you can't have your ship blow up and realize you've messed up and need to improve? And where is the feeling of believability if NPCs keep dying around you, but all you have to do is just take 15 seconds to high wake and run to safety, never having to fear loss of progress?

 

[Bigmaec]

But don't you see how that, which is sadly too true, is wrong? Where is the challenge, the interest, the fun, if you can't actually lose?

I agree to a certain degree, but that is the problem of many players (me included when I started the game). Everyone wants to play in Cutter/Corvette/Conda. I grinded my back off in Rhea for my Corvette. When I finally got it, I played a lot with it in CGs. Then it bored me. And I reverted to ships I skipped. Flying assassination missions with a Chieftain or Fer-de-Lance is a lot more rewarding then doing it with a fully G5'd reactive prismatic Corvette. The game offers that, and in the current incarnation it caters to players who want everything fast, to which I agree a lot. Because people don't want to play a year to get a big three. I guess 90% of those players quit before that point. And Elite as a game won't win by making players quit. If you want to artificially prolong your journey, fine, but if you press this stance on others CMDRs I fear the losses will be great.

edit to counter your stealth edit

I think the piracy thread USS and the assassination missions are a good step, and I also would love to see security have a meaning.
Have there be more engineered NPCs as threads in certain areas would benefit the game, without causing newbies to quit en-masse.

 

[FoxtrotF]

For a fifty million rebuy you have to fly a combat Corvette/Conda/Cutter and if you die in those ships (in PvE) you do something wrong.

No problem for me to fly in PvE on any ship, without shields on T9, but I don't like PvP, I just don't like it, but I like for example coop against PvE, so give me a option not have PvP with psychopath griefiers.