My detailed feedback after a week out

[Mengy]

(this is what the new content feel like, really, Screenshot Simulator DLC)

Maybe that's why I enjoy exploring in 3.3 so much? I've always played Elite mostly as a screenshot hunter, exploring to find scenic places to see, land, or drive around on. It's why the beigification destroyed my will to play the game at all. It's also why I got bored of the exploration mechanics, because the tools just weren't there to find things easily.

However, with 3.3 I can finally find and seek out surface POI's and use the orrery to more easily find interesting orbits. The new tools have given me more ways to screenshot hunt. Sure using the FSS is slower than glancing at a honked sys map but then I was never in a rush to play the game nor was I a credit chaser, I just wanted it to feel interactive and rewarding. The new mechanics do that for me.

I do admit I expected a lot more new surface POI's to find. I also expected new USS to find out in deep space too now that we an actual tool to discover them out there. I really wish Frontier would use proc gen to add more variety to the geology and biology on planet surfaces, having them be static sizes and colors just feels like wasted potential to me in today's gaming environment. Maybe now that the tools are in place things like those will come down the road. Maybe.

Part of me feels bad though for enjoying exploring in 3.3 while so many other explorers seem to not be. [downcast]

 

[Scytale]

OP couldn't have expressed better how many Explorers feel since that FSS heresy was imposed to us. +Rep.
I, for myself, went to the Rift, Bovomit and autodestructed on my way back. Can't swallow the new mechanics.
And as expected, nothing exciting there.
Now, my glorious CondaX is parked for sale at Jameson. Anyone interested ? She has truely explored across the whole MW.
There is no longer Exploration in ED.
Just tourism for selfies.
Thank you FD for spoiling so badly my beautiful space exploration game.

Looking forward to hear from FD about their plans for the next expansion season.

Spoiler

Incoming the "Extended FSS". Discover and tag all the marvels of the MW from your first Sidey while still docked at Eravate. Coool !

 

[Darkfyre99]

marx,

Thank you for explaining, in detail, the ennui you feel when using the FSS. It mirrors what I felt while trying to explore under the old system, in both senses of the word "mirror". In particular, a few things stood out:

• I've played around 14 hours I believe, I enjoyed it only in some rare moments, and I didn't feel rewarded enough for the effort I put in. Sure, I got credits and tags, but I don't care about those. I found zero new content which's location wasn't already known. I also found no previously-unknown human, Guardian or Thargoid POIs, and nothing but bark mounds. Meanwhile, I've found five ELWs, two of which were in the same system, so apparently the above are more rare than some of the rarest bodies in the game.
• Related to the above: By day 2, I've already often felt like I'm wasting my time. After all, I'm playing a tedious mini-game requiring little skill, which requires my attention, for no reward that matters to me. Why? Because I decided to stick to exploration for a week. Come day 5, I've felt that I can't wait for this to be over and get back to the bubble. I've explored since day one, and I think this was a first.

As I said above, this pretty much mirrors, in one sense, my experience with the old system. I had stopped caring about credits when I'd gotten my Cobra III, and "discovered by" tags held no interest to me at all. We even reach our breaking point at about the same time.

• While I did find stuff that used to interest me before (but not really nowadays), even if I was "rushing" by the new standards, I progressed at least twice as slow as I did in the old system. Meaning I could have found more and felt rewarded more without the FSS.

Here's where where your experience mirrors mine in the other sense of the word: I've never cared about reaching my destination, but about the journey in between. Pretty much all my destinations were chosen simply to have a direction to travel in. Actually reaching that destination (which rarely happened) was a bonus.

The thing is, nothing I ever found under the old system interested me. That isn't the case with the FSS. Whether it is an opportunity to potentially catch an eclipse, taking surface samples from geological sites, or squeezing between roche worlds, I'm discovering things I never would've discovered under the old system. Yes, I'm traveling slower than before, but that's because I'm little Billy-ing like crazy. This is a good thing in my book.

• Related to the previous point, I've noted this elsewhere, and can illustrate with two pictures: the FSS means that I can no longer realistically find rare system configurations, which I used to enjoy. It's practically impossible to do so now, since it would require scanning tens of thousands of systems completely.

Again, here's where my experience mirrors yours in the other sense of the word. Under the old system, seeing a rare system configuration wasn't very interesting, because I never discovered it. I was handed a TripTik pointing it out after holding down a button for a few seconds.

The new system creates a genuine sense of discovery for me, so even discovering a binary planet can be exciting, because I'm confirming a deduction I'd made based on information provided by the FSS. Even being disappointed by a false positive is better than the old system, since at least I'm experiencing something as I explore.

What's more, if you're interested in "rare system configurations," you really shouldn't need to scan "tens of thousand of systems completely." The signs of a binary⁺ gas giant are unmistakable in the FSS, because there should be multiple gas giant arrows around the targeting reticle, all pointing at the same blue blob. It may require you zooming in or even resolving a body to confirm, since a rare planetary alignment can result in a false positive, but this is a far cry from scanning an entire system.

But then again, aren't "rare planetary alignments" a "rare system configuration" too?

• Nothing that anyone has found since the Chapter Four release has made me want to go out there and find my own. For most of it, watching the content on Youtube would suffice. This wouldn't apply to large stuff like Thargoid bases, new large wrecked ships and such: stuff that I might want to drive / fly around. But what has been found is small.

It's possible that once I've been exploring for four years, I'll feel the same. As it stands, I've been waiting for six years, since the original Kickstarter, for exploration to actually have discovery game play, or more accurately discovery game play that didn't involve flying over planets for weeks in the vague hope of finding something on its surface.

• Finally, I've had a What The F moment: multicrew. It turns out that your crew who helps you with getting through bodies faster isn't rewarded with anything: neither credits nor tags. I sincerely hope this isn't intended behaviour, but a bug, since from my experience, it appeared that there's real demand for joining multicrew exploration. I've never had to have a seat open for more than five minutes before someone joined. But since I realised there are no rewards for their help, I haven't hosted it.

What do you know, we agree on something.

Now, don't get me wrong, exploration before didn't require much in the way of skills either, and was rather tedious too: the crucial difference is that it didn't require my attention much, and since even if I found nothing interesting, I always progressed towards my goals at a decent pace, it didn't make me feel like I was wasting my time. There's also that scanning a system feels a step back: it's more tedious, not less.

And this is ultimately the difference between our two experiences. I expect games to capture my attention. If they don't, then they're not worth playing in my opinion. The new system does a marvelous job at capturing my attention, to the point where I'm "suffering" from "one more system" syndrome.

 

[Old Duck]

But after dozens of carrots I got sick of them.

AKA Space Bark? Yeah, I'm sick of carrots too. Now broccoli, I could go for some broccoli out where I'm exploring!

 

[Zenith]

• Related to the above: By day 2, I've already often felt like I'm wasting my time. After all, I'm playing a tedious mini-game requiring little skill, which requires my attention, for no reward that matters to me. Why? Because I decided to stick to exploration for a week. Come day 5, I've felt that I can't wait for this to be over and get back to the bubble. I've explored since day one, and I think this was a first.
• While I did find stuff that used to interest me before (but not really nowadays), even if I was "rushing" by the new standards, I progressed at least twice as slow as I did in the old system. Meaning I could have found more and felt rewarded more without the FSS.

All this also made me near-certain that I'll resign from DW2, but I'd rather wait on making that decision until it actually starts. A month can be plenty of time, after all. I might still do the CGs, but that won't be because of exploration, but in spite of it.

marx, you have nailed my opinion of the FSS since I first tried it out during the beta.
Within a couple of minutes of using it, I knew that it had killed exploration for me. I simply can't stand the "where's wally?" searching around the skymap.

Like you, the disappointment with chapter 4 and the enforced nature of the many changes has made me reluctantly admit to myself that my time with Elite is nearly up.
I won't be going on DW2 because I'll be working on getting my alt account to Triple Elite. Once I've done that, I'll be picking a random system somewhere in the Milky Way for each account, travelling there, landing on a planet and logging out of the game. For good.

So yeah, parking the ship soon, then tagging along for DW2 with zero expectation. Once again the community will be my content.

Qohen, you're going along with DW2 because the community will be the content. I wish I could say that it had the same draw for me, but my despondency about many changed aspects of the game has coloured my opinion with so much negativity.

Well, this is exactly what I feel about the new exploration system and more generally, about Elite Dangerous.
It has become hollow, boring and time wasting. Very unfortunate, because ED is one of the best nice looking game I played.

I just resigned from DW2, and definitely retired from ED.

Once my alt hits Triple Elite during January, I'll be following you out the door.

 

[Lightspeed]

Good post OP. I felt this from Beta.

The ideal would be to include both old and new methods as alternative options. You can choose whichever method depending on the purpose of your exploration. For example, as Mengy has posted, in order to find appropriate photo ops you need the FSS. It would be relatively straightforward to implement both, but would require an ADS .... uh oh.

Yet if mining can do it, so can exploration.

But now, with what I've found/not found so far, I shall divert my attention to the triple elite with hauling/mining and combat .... if I can keep playing long enough. My enthusiasm has definitely taken a hit, though.

 

[AndrewCrisp]

My own take on this seems to be in between. Like Darkfyre, I prefer the new FSS to the old ADS; the new arrangement is much faster to go through a system and look for interesting things. However, when I first started playing back in February 2017, I found the old ADS system to be engaging at first, but eventually it became something of a slog. Thus, I predict that the time will come when I won't be as engaged with the FSS as I am now. So I can see myself moving over to marx's point of view on the FSS.

I've taken part in one official expedition - the Minerva Centaurus expedition - and while I had my share of fun on that voyage, I can also tell you that it was the longest and most gruelling four months I had in the game. I was faced with the choice of either skipping over actual exploration in favour of keeping up with the main group and the schedule, or abandoning the schedule to explore. It consumed a good chunk of my free time, to the exclusion of a lot of other activities and personal projects. I can't see this system making that problem worse, but I can't see it making it better, either.

Basically, I don't think the system we use to explore is the problem. The tools are fine in themselves. If I may mangle Shakespeare, the fault lies both in our stars and in ourselves.

The Milky Way is huge, and it takes a long time for even our fastest ships to go from one end to the other. Thus, any deep space exploration is a long-term commitment on the part of the player, unless they're rich enough to afford a second account for their non-exploration wants. The sheer size of the galaxy, and the vast number of systems and bodies within it, will wear even the most enthusiastic explorer down over time, regardless of the tools used. We have a huge haystack, and we're searching for very tiny needles. With this system, Frontier has given us a small magnet we can use, and tossed in more needles, but the haystack has not gotten smaller.

If anything, we can argue the haystack has gotten larger, at least in terms of perception. Many of the new phenomena are found at or near planets most people would bypass. To ensure we don't miss finding something interesting, we have to become completionists. No system left unturned, no planet unscanned, just in case. Add to the fact that the nearby regions of space are well-travelled and hence well-explored, and one is left with tourism if you want to explore but still stay close enough to human space to do other things if the mood strikes you.
The truly uncharted regions are much farther out, and make returning to the bubble (or Colonia) less of a matter of "just a quick break to recharge and then I'll get back to exploring" and more of a matter of "I must decide between soldiering on and giving up." The choice feels more permanent, at least to me.

Again, some people deal with this by having more than one account; but I gather that the cost is almost the same as buying the game itself, and not all of us can afford to drop that kind of money more than once.

I think, then, that the best way to deal with exploration ennui, regardless of what tools we use, is twofold:

1) Increase the amount of needles in the haystack. More phenomena, anomalies, life, even artifacts and derelicts in the deepest regions of space (the Thargoids and Guardians can't be the only starfaring aliens out there). Make some of these things as common as Earthlikes or Water Worlds, while keeping others rare (and increasing the payout for finding the truly rare stuff), and increase their distribution around the galaxy. The really common stuff should pop up in, say, one out of every fifty systems.

2) Have ways for players to get around the galaxy quickly with minimal effort. Long-range jumps are canonical, as Jacques Station and the Gnosis prove, so perhaps more dockable megaships that can transport players to distant outposts more readily. Fleet carriers, if they become a reality, can also serve this function. Alternately, an autopilot feature, similar to the ability to transfer ships and modules between stations, might allow for a "set destination and log off" approach. You might sacrifice the capacity to scan all the stars between origin and destination, but it would allow for long-range travel without having to sit at the computer or console for hours on end.

Those are my thoughts, for what they may be worth. Any errors are my own.

 

[Qohen Leth]

Why not take it out to combat though?

Wait, do you expect me to fly a ship according to its intended use?!

 

[Qohen Leth]

Maybe that's why I enjoy exploring in 3.3 so much? I've always played Elite mostly as a screenshot hunter, exploring to find scenic places to see, land, or drive around on.

Oh don't get me wrong, I expect to farm a buttload of nice shots from the DW2 fleet and have our weekly contests with prizes and all, but at the end of the day, at least for me, there's no point in taking 50 photos of a variety of geysers or spikey things. I too hoped for astronomical procgen phenomena, the old accredition discs, quasars, etc.

Template POIs and USSs don't fit in the galaxy, they are randomly scattered compartments you enter through a gate

EDIT: I think we need to accept the fact that we, old 'splorers, at not (anymore?) the marketable audience. We don't bring money in, we simply lurk around indefinitely. NMS-like eye candy, on the other hand, is good screenshots and Twitter posts, and thus for potential sales and a more casual console target audience. Oh well.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I'm enjoying it although if they did as many are suggesting and put the map back in for the honk it wouldn't bother me.

One halfway suggestion would be to go back to having the honk do the current DSS exploration within the first x number of light years from the star and allow upgrades via engineering to better that value. At least that way stuff closer to you when you arrive would be visible in the map right off the bat.

That said I like the discovery mechanic, it does make me feel like I'm exploring and doing a quick scan, having a quick glance to see what's there before deciding to stay or go isn't a problem for me. I even do it in systems that have been discovered

As ive said a few times I feel the system will come into its own as more/all planets become landable because then the process won't limit you to ice/rocky worlds and you can scan and take your pick of what you want to explore. When that happens there won't be anywhere near as much 'futility' to scanning a system.

 

[Barking_Mad]

With this system, Frontier has given us a small magnet we can use, and tossed in more needles, but the haystack has not gotten smaller.

If anything, we can argue the haystack has gotten larger, at least in terms of perception. Many of the new phenomena are found at or near planets most people would bypass. To ensure we don't miss finding something interesting, we have to become completionists.

As my above comment, I think there has to be a look to the future with this system and not necessarily judging it just as it is. With more landable planets with more things to find then the haystack is not necessarily smaller, but certainly more interesting to get lost in. I'm not interested in mapping some planets with the probe right now, but if I could land on them after probing, I would be.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

@ Kenneth McGrew: funny you should mention mining. I tried core mining out just now, having heard of a gold rush, and honestly, searching for those fissured asteroids was more fun than searching for stuff via the FSS is. Yet you could even argue it's simpler: all you do is fly your ship, periodically send out pings and interpret the signals and take a look at possible candidates up close. But it doesn't mark targets in green for you ("hey look, this is an ELW"), and while flying your ship, you have to pay attention and be alert. Even if it took longer to find a suitable 'roid, it didn't feel stressful or forced to me.
Whatever team did the mining update should be tasked to do something for the next exploration update too. (Although I'll admit that the mining tool classes are weird.)

.

i enjoy the new mining - core mining is absolutely brilliant, but i hate flying large lethargic ships... the lack of mining tool classes forces you into certain ships, combined with optional slots needed your looking at a keelback / cobra IV as the entry level, both of which i hate the look of which is a big part of the game for me - other ships available lack optional slots or are as agile as an iceberg.

it wouldnt be hard to stick small seismic charges in the game with less ammo or weaker charges than their larger siblings, but again its just a theme with most updates, half done, ill thought out

exploration is now just a bit unfulfilling, but would i want the mining team to look at exploration? probably not, i so wanted for at least the past 2 years "an exploration update", but now we have it i dont think i will ever ask again.

if this was what was on the shelf 4 years ago i wouldn't have got into it, unfortunately I'm invested into now (more from an emotional game play POV) so its just a huge disappointment of "what could have been"

 

[Scarlet Trooper]

Agreed 100% with the OP, time to retire from ED

 

[MattG]

Pretty much my thoughts, marx.

I gave it a good try in beta and provided feedback, but you end up being shouted down because you're "wrong". Not like FDev listened to any of the feedback anyway. And now we're stuck with this mechanic that has destroyed how I played the game, and taken my enjoyment with it.

Perhaps it's a failing in my own brain, but I do not build up this mental picture of a system as I scan it that others seem to be managing to do - there isn't enough information to do so. If I actually care about the system configuration I end up resorting to the system map again - which I can't seem to access within the FFSS anyway. There aren't words to describe how annoying the zero throttle requirement is, as well as not being able to charge the FSD at the same time.

Then there's the planet shooter mode. I'm already tired of volcanic sites, they've been completely devalued. I'm not defending the old method for finding them, it was horrific - but at least there was a sense of achievement when you found them.

I recently bought a Rift to play in VR, but I've not had the motivation to set it up for ED. I don't think I'll be bothering.

It's no exaggeration that I've had more fun in Excel trying to work out the new payouts for exploring than I have done actually exploring. That's perverse. As others have said - I really wish 3.3 had been paid content, because I absolutely wouldn't have "upgraded".

I'm still debating DW2. I really wanted to tag along but I'm just not sure I can stomach it.

 

[Qohen Leth]

I'm still debating DW2. I really wanted to tag along but I'm just not sure I can stomach it.

You'll have a seat in my Mamba, best views in the fleet

Spoiler

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm still debating DW2. I really wanted to tag along but I'm just not sure I can stomach it.

Only one way to find out

If you have a go and have second thoughts, you can always turn back. If you don't have a go and have second thoughts, you either have to buckyball to catch up, or you'll regret not having gone.

 

[jimbeau1571]

I feel your pain marx, but for different reasons. And I agree, without making suggestions of what FD should do, I can express my dislikes of changes that have been made.

As you know, I have spent a lot of time ELW hunting, and picking up the pieces for your list. The bubble lost my interest after playing the BGS for nearly 12 months, but they never repaired it properly and every update brought new problems and the old ones were never addressed. So to Exploring it was.

Sag A and Beagle Point in a 3 man wing.
First recorded crossing of the Abyss to the western side of Beagle. (South to Northern edge direction as Chiggy unknowingly was crossing West to East).

I was never one for looking for unusual systems and their make up, I don't have the science understanding for that. But I have sought other stuff. WR stars. Planetary Neb.
My Asp would have fewer scratches having flown through a planet sized Hawthorn bush.

So to now.
I don't mind the FSS so much. The extra few seconds to throttle back, check for ELW's and possible multiples of WW/AW's and then jump on. I can handle that. But I definitely feel for you guys/girls who search for the science side. No System map is a killer.

But what really grips me, and this has been a long time in the building (Halo-me was the real breaker) and is only getting worse........ The HUD and its Disneyfication (one for the OED next year!).

And the FSS is a prime example of where they have gone wrong. Example:

The planet details once scanned is in the same font and size as what is on the system map. Yet the box above is slightly larger and bold font. Why the different fonting?
In the middle, you have this planet pixelating (probably not the right word) into view with splattering of fonts and repeated detail. Do I really need the body ident in massive font in the middle. I know where I am thanks. And its written in the table on the right! It looks clunky, and ugly. And to top it off, while repeating some info, they neglect to tell you other, like its a terraformable which I would think is something of interest to people. Irony of, you have to go to the Sys map for that detail!

And they still persist on doing the same thing in the main cockpit HUD. System name repeated over and over. Jumping to over and over. Fonts sizes all over the place with more and more info not required to be in your vision constantly.

Chill pill taken.

I am currently travelling to Ishums Reach, and then its back to the Bubble to park up. I may go mining with my wing mates, I may touch the BGS again if the forum is reporting things are any better than 12 months ago. Probably not is my guess, it's never been given the care it should have been. I loved this game for so long, but they are beginning to lose us. They had me on sabatical awaiting this update. They have me once more, but only just. If someone reports something significant (life form) far away from the Bubble and Colonia, then I will probably be all in again.

Until then, if I want Disneyfication ..... you'll find me on the way to Ishums while watching Mulan or something of that ilk.

PS. thanks for all your time doing the ELW list marx, your dedication has not gone unnoticed.

 

[VR tazbert]

I am of a similar mind to you guys.

I know the old system was fairly basic, but at least it gave you something.
Jumping into a new system was like rolling the dice, there was a little thrill of seeing what the result would be.
Now it feels like the dice are being rolled on the moon, and I have to find them with a telescope to see what the result was.
Am I going to bother? Not really.

I know the 'honk - look at system map - move on' system wasn't exactly perfect, but jumping into a system and looking at the planets there at least gave me the feeling that I had travelled somewhere. I was in a new solar system, looking at planets that no-one had ever seen before, and probably never would again.
Now, I look at an oscilloscope display that I have seen a thousand times before.

The old system may have been basic, the system map may not have paid many credits, and it didn't actually tell me that much, but it was at least pretty. It was quite relaxing of an evening to look at all these new places - even when I was desperately chasing Henkka to get to the next waypoint! And sometimes there would be that little voice saying 'that's odd...'

I know that in some ways the new system is better, it helps you find POIs etc a lot easier, but other things are a lot harder. How will anyone ever find one of those glowing green gas giants with this system? Without spending half an hour scanning every system they go through?

As I said in beta, slow explorers just wandering along will probably love the new system. Those who want the money will love the new system. People who just want to see the galaxy won't like it so much. People who need to go somewhere won't like it so much.
Being someone who likes seeing the galaxy, and having been on several expeditions where I need to go somewhere on time, I don't like it so much. I've withdrawn from DW2 as I don't feel that I can travel all across the galaxy again without seeing any of it along the way. As Qohen says, the community will be the main content, but I can watch that on Youtube and do something else with the rest of my time.

I'll finish off getting my FSD Booster, but then I will see what motivation I can find to continue.

 

[Scytale]

EDIT: I think we need to accept the fact that we, old 'splorers, at not (anymore?) the marketable audience. We don't bring money in, we simply lurk around indefinitely. NMS-like eye candy, on the other hand, is good screenshots and Twitter posts, and thus for potential sales and a more casual console target audience. Oh well.

Bread for today, hunger for tomorrow.

 

[MattG]

You'll have a seat in my Mamba, best views in the fleet

That is a sweet view, I'll give it that!

Only one way to find out

If you have a go and have second thoughts, you can always turn back. If you don't have a go and have second thoughts, you either have to buckyball to catch up, or you'll regret not having gone.

I realise this'll sound somewhat odd. If I decide to go but have second thoughts, I'll see that as some sort of self-failure. I'll have committed to do something and then quit because <vapid reasons>. Conversely, if I didn't go and then it turned out awesome then yes, I'd absolutely regret it - but I can deal with that regret a lot easier than the feeling of self-failure. I know that sounds crazy.

And I can't buckyball. I'm unable to get past the feeling that THIS system might be the one with the shiny I've been hunting. And so I'm forced to fire up the FFSS and resolve at least some of the bodies. FOMO, I guess. And therein lies my biggest problem in the new mechanics.