Why is Combat still a Low Paying High-Risk activity?

[Arkadi]

Having easy income is important, so that poeple are more willing to take risks. At least that's how I think. I never was a big moneymaker and taking risks was something I had to think of twice not so long ago. Now that I have more then enough money, I can play at ease. If you are in the position to have some good ships and some experience, it's not a big deal to earn enough money to do whatever one likes in this game (within some boundaries). Some activities might give quicker credits, some slower, but none are really bad, if you know what you do. I think it's counting beans to argue about those differences. Maybe some poeple still think they need to be A-Graded Cutter pilots on the spot and need to maximize theire income to reach that goal as fast as possible. Each to theire own. I think real life is already to full of this money-making attitude, so I am glad if I don't have to do this money race in a game. And luckily I don't see the necesserity to play greedyly in Elite Dangerous. Credits are not so important and easy enough to get if you need them. Thaks to that this is a game and not a job.

I really don't see the problem - except maybe in the early game when a freshman is learning the ropes and trying to build a fortune out of nothing.

 

[Sterling MH]

Having easy income is important, so that poeple are more willing to take risks.

It's a game. Risk = 0. Unless you wire your computer to a literal kill switch.

So, no, risk is not a factor here. Reward is.

 

[Arkadi]

It's a game. Risk = 0. Unless you wire your computer to a literal kill switch.

So, no, risk is not a factor here. Reward is.

the risk is minimal, but it's there if you start to fly without rebuy. This can set a commader back a bit. If your are not terrible rich, some rebuy screens in a 10-20 million rebuy ship can bring you close to this margin. The risk is that you won't enjoy the game anymore if you'll have to waste alot of time to earn you'r assests again. That's why easy income is important to me. And easy income is available in this game. So that's perfect for me.

Rewards? There are plenty. You gain ranks, you acquire ships, you unlock new weapons, you discover new things in space, you make new gameplay experiences, you discover new trade-routes, you find new ways to do old things, you master new challanges. This all is rewarding. To me.

edit:
maybe I was not clear. I think some kinds of gameplay can be risky, and only some of them include combat. For example stunt-flying, fighting Thargoid Iterceptors, willingly seeking a challange fighting with undersized or underpowerd ships, this kind of stuff. We can do this and risk our hard earnt ships, and have some fun, because we can earn enough credits with relative ease. The gold-rushes change. The actual gold-rush is deep core mining. There was a time when it was skimmer shooting, there was a time we could stack massacre missions, there has been quincy and sothis. And there is a lot of regular ways to earn money fast and easy. Maybe it's not PvE combat missions at this time. So what? This' all counting beans, is what I think.

 

[TrailBlazer 143]

Nope.

If I were a new player I'd be focusing on learning how to fly my ship and navigate the game universe. Discover it as I go. Who cares about credits and balanced pay when they crash into the station every time they try to land? [haha]

...in fact, that's exactly what I did when I first fired up the game. I would also advise any person starting the game to take it slow, enjoy the journey, and learn to play. The stuff will come in time.

Then with that being said, I don't think my post affects you in anyway. er.. effects... I'll learn that one day.
Anyway, just wanted to clear that up for myself.

 

[Sterling MH]

the risk is minimal,

No, it's zero.

Here's something you may know but not know how it relates.

Pay to win. Or for some more recent games, pay to not play. See Shadow of War for the early example. It's bad because you pay to bypass playing the game. And it leads to bad games because if the game is such that people will pay not to play it, then why pay for it in the first place, yes?

How does it fit here? Well if you face the rebuy screen without the funds to rebuy, then you still play the game. If the game is such that you don't want to play the game again, why buy it in the first place?

There's only "risk" in being kicked back to the beginning in a sandbox game like this if the game is not worth playing. there's no epilogue or denouement where you suddenly get the end of the game, the big bad beaten, the story finally told.

There is no risk.

Reward is all there is in ANY game (unless playing professionally for real world advantage/pay), and in a sandbox, the reward is playing the game, you don't get a reward of completing the game, it has no completion state.

 

[sollisb]

''Which imbecile stays away for years'' braking distance records or out there for filming

'' If you are trying to insinuate that every jump you make in Exploration is a risk, then I'll just laugh'' Not all jumps, but if your after the fast cash,in the danger zones... after flying out a long way, it can get very dicey

video


just clearing up on expo stuff. i don't know personally what the payout balance are like yet. I'm still finishing up a exploration run .. yet to really test combat and mining in 3.3

You're out exploring with no shields. I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

And let's keep the bold white text to a minimum ok? I'm fluent in English, I don't need you to bold what I typed, in some vague hope of drawing more attention to it.

 

[sollisb]

No, it's zero.

Here's something you may know but not know how it relates.

Pay to win. Or for some more recent games, pay to not play. See Shadow of War for the early example. It's bad because you pay to bypass playing the game. And it leads to bad games because if the game is such that people will pay not to play it, then why pay for it in the first place, yes?

How does it fit here? Well if you face the rebuy screen without the funds to rebuy, then you still play the game. If the game is such that you don't want to play the game again, why buy it in the first place?

There's only "risk" in being kicked back to the beginning in a sandbox game like this if the game is not worth playing. there's no epilogue or denouement where you suddenly get the end of the game, the big bad beaten, the story finally told.

There is no risk.

Reward is all there is in ANY game (unless playing professionally for real world advantage/pay), and in a sandbox, the reward is playing the game, you don't get a reward of completing the game, it has no completion state.

Nonsense. How many players do you actually know that will play Elite if they remove all rewards? You and who else?

 

[sollisb]

It's a game. Risk = 0. Unless you wire your computer to a literal kill switch.

So, no, risk is not a factor here. Reward is.

Huh? Run that by me again please?

What you're saying is there are rewards but no risks. So Frontier are giving us all credits for risking absolutely nothing. I know it's Christmas, but maybe wait few more days before hitting the bottle eh?

 

[Kaocraft]

I never said 3.3 didn't have a positive effect on combat rewards, you're putting words into my mouth. I'm saying that for the highest risk of an activity, Combat Players aren't seeing any results that stack up with the rest of the lower-risk activities in the game, this graph means nothing to what I've said.

Combat is low risk because you are always going to be outfitted to deal with that danger. Mining exploration and trading is high risk because your outfitting necessitates you are vulnerable to any attack, and you stand to lose much more if you are attacked with a load of cargo, minerals, or exploration materials. Combat players risk next to nothing by comparison. Combat is the most casual, do-it-at-your-convenience, low barrier to entry activity in the game. You can do it anywhere, for any amount of time, with little to no planning, systems knowledge, or preparation; and still do well at it. The pay is fine.

 

[Sterling MH]

Huh? Run that by me again please?

Sure.

It's a game. Risk = 0. Unless you wire your computer to a literal kill switch.

So, no, risk is not a factor here. Reward is.

There was more. Feel free to read it in the original posts, previous.

 

[sollisb]

No, you're not alone, you're probably a large if not vast majority. However when it comes to complaining, those who want change will have reason to speak up, whilst those without a problem won't see a need to speak. So you'll hear more gripes and they will be all from people who don't do like you so, if they're complaining about things like this thread's "OP" comment. Selection bias. Nothing else.

Problem is that this thread now has the OP not changing their mind and people telling him that he's not being sympathised with.

If combat is the least pay worthy profession (and I'd include bounty hunting and piracy in that), then it means that people will be "forced" to play other roles. Since piracy and other forms of PvP combat require someone to hit, this lack of payment can make the universe more target rich. Any PvPer who only trades in Solo to hide from that is merely part of the problem and their complaints about PvP can be ignored. If you do that, either stop and become part of the target environment or just realise that we too don't want to be someone else's content. We just don't bother complaining nobody will become part of ours...

More nonsense. If as you claim, the 'vast majority' were making billions by not using Gold Rushes, VolleyBoom, Robigo Slaves, Quince Scan Missions, then they wouldn't need to have been nerfed would they?

Why are so many players doing mining now? It's easy credits!! You basically can't fail, and it's safe. Billions being earned easily. Don't get me wrong, Mining is now fun, it's the best addition to the game ever, in my opinion. But the rewards are way over the top.

 

[Han Zulu]

You're out exploring with no shields. I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

Just FYI, For explorers, the only time a shield makes a difference is when he/she lands on a planet. Most explorers have a shield installed, but run with it turned off because it doesn't protect from heat or space-dust. The only other time would be if they're interdicted, but then, most explorers are too far away from home-bubble.

 

[sollisb]

Sure.

It's a game. Risk = 0. Unless you wire your computer to a literal kill switch.

So, no, risk is not a factor here. Reward is.

There was more. Feel free to read it in the original posts, previous.

It made zero sense then, and still makes no sense. You are trying, and failing, to equate real life risk to a game. People put time into a game. To some people that time is worthless, the kind of people that live in basements playing games and collecting welfare. For the players who have jobs, that time is valuable. They spend time doing something to gain something. So.. If it takes me 2 months playtime to make enough credits to buy and fit a Cutter, and the rebuy is 47m, then if I do lose it, I then have to spend time making back that 47m to be back in the black again.

 

[sollisb]

Just FYI, For explorers, the only time a shield makes a difference is when he/she lands on a planet. Most explorers have a shield installed, but run with it turned off because it doesn't protect from heat or space-dust. The only other time would be if they're interdicted, but then, most explorers are too far away from home-bubble.

Accepted. But how many out of all the stars you have jumped to, have been Neutron stars? Or stars that might kill you? I've been playing since day 1, and have never even come close to dying while exploring. Though I will accept I'm no 'explorer'.

 

[sollisb]

Combat is low risk because you are always going to be outfitted to deal with that danger. Mining exploration and trading is high risk because your outfitting necessitates you are vulnerable to any attack, and you stand to lose much more if you are attacked with a load of cargo, minerals, or exploration materials. Combat players risk next to nothing by comparison. Combat is the most casual, do-it-at-your-convenience, low barrier to entry activity in the game. You can do it anywhere, for any amount of time, with little to no planning, systems knowledge, or preparation; and still do well at it. The pay is fine.

Chap yesterday made 1.2bn mining over the course of 1.5hrs.

I challenge you to make 1bn in Combat in 90 mins. It's ok.. I'll wait..

 

[Han Zulu]

Accepted. But how many out of all the stars you have jumped to, have been Neutron stars? Or stars that might kill you? I've been playing since day 1, and have never even come close to dying while exploring. Though I will accept I'm no 'explorer'.

When it comes to the discussion of danger for explorers, I'm more on your side. There are barely any. I've done probably close to 3,000 neutron jumps (have 2,000 n-stars with my name on them, or around there), and with right technique (and right ship, not all of them do as well). The most dangerous is rather to live on the fringe of the galaxy and not double check fuel stars.

The most deaths I've had has been either interdicted as a trader or doing something stupid in a conflict zone.

 

[Sterling MH]

When it comes to the discussion of danger for explorers, I'm more on your side. There are barely any. I've done probably close to 3,000 neutron jumps.

Well you say that but I did not know that such jumps would automatically do a % or three damage to your FSD and that once you had more than 30% damage to it you would basically be unable to successfully jump more than the standard range after that, and frequently fail to jump at all, so I did not pack an AFMU on a 30,000LY outward trip (with detours I did about 80,000LY, all bar the first 10k via normal boosted jumps, the rest with failing FSD).

But if you risk 40 minutes of work 10% of the time as a combat pilot and an explorer risks 4000 minutes of work 1% of the time, the explorer is facing 10x the risk of the combat pilot.

When you add that the explorer will be set on their single only task for those 4000 minutes of play whilst the combat player can just hop in a different ship to have a bit of a change, the payment for exploring is really out of whack. There's a reason why many explorers have two accounts and go out into the black with one of them and leave the other one in the bubble.

If you were locked into doing nothing but combat for 4000 minutes of play and no way to bank your progress, THEN you'd be right complaining about "risk". But if you refuse to accept that anyone other than your brave self doing what you chose to do faces any risk, there's no point discussing with YOU, only debunking your points. Which is a less rewarding form of discussion. It's PvE discussion, rather than PvP, ironically enough.

 

[Sterling MH]

It made zero sense then, and still makes no sense.

Just as well I didn't put any more effort into explaining myself than you put into understanding then.

 

[Kaocraft]

Chap yesterday made 1.2bn mining over the course of 1.5hrs.

I challenge you to make 1bn in Combat in 90 mins. It's ok.. I'll wait..

How about YOU show me 1bn mining in 90 minutes yourself? I bet you can't do it.

Combat is a middle-of-the-road activity with middle-of-the-road results and I'm saying that's fine. So I don't need to show you results comparable to the most extreme outcome of the most optimized mining run with the best luck and an already perfectly identified set of circumstances and locations. If 1bn in 90 were the average amount that any random doofus automatically made just by showing up in any planetary ring, then yeah that's a problem. But you're pointing at a particularly successful haul in the midst of a gold rush, and then saying "hey look how much money people get JUST for digging a hole! The pay rate for combat should be raised because soldiers deserve more money than ditch diggers."

Mining at least in its new incarnation, is supposed to be a highly specialized high volatility activity. Show me 1bn exploration in 90 minutes, show me 1bn passenger payouts in 90min, show me 1bn exploration in 90min.

Or better yet start pirating miners.

 

[Han Zulu]

Well you say that but I did not know that such jumps would automatically do a % or three damage to your FSD and that once you had more than 30% damage to it you would basically be unable to successfully jump more than the standard range after that, and frequently fail to jump at all, so I did not pack an AFMU on a 30,000LY outward trip (with detours I did about 80,000LY, all bar the first 10k via normal boosted jumps, the rest with failing FSD).

You only make those mistakes once or twice.

But if you risk 40 minutes of work 10% of the time as a combat pilot and an explorer risks 4000 minutes of work 1% of the time, the explorer is facing 10x the risk of the combat pilot.

I disagree. I spent 12 months exploring. Doing 400 kly roundtrip of the galaxy in the DECE. A few times I could have been screwed, but it was mostly when I didn't plan refuel. Didn't die a single time.

However, I did get killed yesterday in a conflict zone. I didn't pay attention to how bad my damage was. It could've been avoided, but I most definitely a better explorer than combat pilot.

When you add that the explorer will be set on their single only task for those 4000 minutes of play whilst the combat player can just hop in a different ship to have a bit of a change, the payment for exploring is really out of whack. There's a reason why many explorers have two accounts and go out into the black with one of them and leave the other one in the bubble.

I do too. But not because exploration is dangerous, but because it's just too much work going back. It does take a couple of days usually. Even so, I've done some thousand hours exploring. Didn't die once.

If you were locked into doing nothing but combat for 4000 minutes of play and no way to bank your progress, THEN you'd be right complaining about "risk". But if you refuse to accept that anyone other than your brave self doing what you chose to do faces any risk, there's no point discussing with YOU, only debunking your points. Which is a less rewarding form of discussion. It's PvE discussion, rather than PvP, ironically enough.

Not sure what your point is. I think arguing risk/reward is useless, because traders and miners are the ones to risk losing the most without proper defense, unless they trade/mine using a combat ship. Exploration is one of the most risk free things you can do in Elite, at least that's my experience. Combat, trading, Thargoid hunting, and other things are most definitely more dangerous, but still, nothing in the game is extremely dangerous or risky. It's quite safe overall.

If the discussion would be about the game itself, I think it's more useful to talk about effort instead of risk.