Hardware & Technical Just found this new HOTAS manufacturer, Oh my.
- Thread starter CMDR NightsLong
- Start date
Exactly, especially since a more than adequate for the vast majority of us Thrustmaster HOTAS-X system costs £35 or so. Seems to me that a huge gap exists in the approx £100 per set market?.
I started by Elite Dangerous play with a TM HOTAS Warthog rig, with TM rudder pedals. And I liked it a lot ...mostly because I didn't know any better (no offense to those TM fans out there). But I could NOT, for the life of me, use ANY fixed weapons. The TM "hard center" made fine adjustments around the stick's center just a bridge too far, even with Joystick curves configured to dampen that.
Then I heard about Virpil and the "eastern" soft-center those sticks had (a design feature I understand VKB sticks also share). And, even better, the Virpil WarBRD base can be ordered independently of the grip and allows you to use your TM Warthog grip! So I tried that. And I *LOVE* this combination. I can use some fixed weapons now, although I'm far from excellent with them (write that off more to my age and reflexes than the stick I'm using). But overall, my control is MUCH finer with the Virpil base, without any input smoother or curving, than it ever was with TM.
That made my Franken-setup is a Virpil WarBRD base with TM Warthog grip, a TM Warthog throttle (which I love), and the TM pedals. Still not great for fine yaw corrections due to the hard center of the TM pedals.
Now realizing the benefit of that soft center, I swapped out my TM pedals for the VKB pedals. And WOW! Now my yaw correction is much finer, too. Instead of the TM pedals, which have you moving your entire legs in and out, the VKB pedals allow you to just flex your foot a little (or even just curl your toes a tad), so finer corrections are easier to make -- again without having to use Joystick curves, or Gremlin or any other 3rd party software.
I liked the Virpil stick with the TM grip so much, I sprang for a Virpil left-hand grip and a second base thinking I might give HOSAS a try -- and have ordered a RH grip for my existing base (perhaps it's time to sunset the TM grip, because the Virpil grip has even more functionality (read: buttons).
And, now -- because I've become such a huge fan of those eastern manufacturers, I have a VKB joystick en route (Christmas present, yay!). So I'll be able to compare Virpil and VKB. (I have a couple machines and a gaming laptop, so I'm hunting for the best setup for the second box and something i can take on the road when I travel, without losing (too much) lethality.
And, yes, I realize in reading this that I've developed a bit of a joystick problem....
Then I heard about Virpil and the "eastern" soft-center those sticks had (a design feature I understand VKB sticks also share). And, even better, the Virpil WarBRD base can be ordered independently of the grip and allows you to use your TM Warthog grip! So I tried that. And I *LOVE* this combination. I can use some fixed weapons now, although I'm far from excellent with them (write that off more to my age and reflexes than the stick I'm using). But overall, my control is MUCH finer with the Virpil base, without any input smoother or curving, than it ever was with TM.
That made my Franken-setup is a Virpil WarBRD base with TM Warthog grip, a TM Warthog throttle (which I love), and the TM pedals. Still not great for fine yaw corrections due to the hard center of the TM pedals.
Now realizing the benefit of that soft center, I swapped out my TM pedals for the VKB pedals. And WOW! Now my yaw correction is much finer, too. Instead of the TM pedals, which have you moving your entire legs in and out, the VKB pedals allow you to just flex your foot a little (or even just curl your toes a tad), so finer corrections are easier to make -- again without having to use Joystick curves, or Gremlin or any other 3rd party software.
I liked the Virpil stick with the TM grip so much, I sprang for a Virpil left-hand grip and a second base thinking I might give HOSAS a try -- and have ordered a RH grip for my existing base (perhaps it's time to sunset the TM grip, because the Virpil grip has even more functionality (read: buttons).
And, now -- because I've become such a huge fan of those eastern manufacturers, I have a VKB joystick en route (Christmas present, yay!). So I'll be able to compare Virpil and VKB. (I have a couple machines and a gaming laptop, so I'm hunting for the best setup for the second box and something i can take on the road when I travel, without losing (too much) lethality.
And, yes, I realize in reading this that I've developed a bit of a joystick problem....
Bind the Fighterstick pinky-button to "Yaw-to Roll" - make it press-to-hold - that way you don't need a twist axis to have yaw on the stick when you want it. I love it.
That is entirely up to you. Only time I touch my keyboard is to press esc when quitting, no mouse touched.
While there's an inarguable accuracy (and combat maneuverability) advantage to those using KBM + FAoff, there ARE some very good PvP pilots using HOTAS and fixed weapons, so it CAN be done (although, tbh, I'm not sure how many HOTAS users out there are flying PvP with full-time FAoff -- most that I know of toggle between the two states).
That said, if fixed weapons (or PvP competency) is your goal, then the right peripherals make ALL the difference in the world* (alas, sounds a bit like pay to play, doesn't it?). If all you want is PvE competency, then just about any HOTAS setup can be made to work, although lots of buttons are really handy for VR!
* admittedly, the "right" hand-eye coordination and reflexes is a big contributing factor to using fixed weapons, too.
Inarguable unless you've used a high end stick. The accuracy and super-fine gradation on my Virpil is stupendous. Combined with it's wide deflection angle, you would need a really large mouse mat combined with low sensitivity to match it, and it would be a PITA to use.
Now if we are talking about the typical sticks, agreed.
i have those sticks and they are impressive, but on a normal person their fingers will always be a lot more precise than their arm. a lot. of course it's a matter of practice and how you fly, and then there are always the outliers who can rock with a wooden plank and a hand tied behind their backs ...
Agree completely. Though I would point out that anyone who is seeking out the performance of high end sticks likely isn't a "normal" person, so I don't feel that distinction really matters.
IMHO the only difference between high end sticks and quality K+M for a good pilot is the immersion. Personally I find flight games with K+M just . . . a letdown. I just love being fooled into feeling like I'm flying a ship. Couldn't care less about stacking bytes.
Nah,
Whether it's speed of movement or precision of movement, a mouse beats a joystick.
That's why computers are controlled by mice rather than joysticks.
Only reason to choose a joystick is for immersion, and that's fine by me. [up]
Can't say I agree. Flying my Krait MkII with Railguns, it's uncommon for me to miss anything less nimble than Viper MkIII or Couriers, and only then because my ship can't keep up. K+M couldn't possibly help me at that point. Perhaps if I was flying Courier vs Courier, but then we're getting pretty niche and I'd also be missing a lot of direct control to boot.
K+M certainly has a clear advantage in FPS where there are no practical limits on turning/aiming speed, but not so in flight games. A good stick can easily keep up with a solid pilot.
Like I said, there's a reason people don't use joysticks to control their computers.
One of my Xmas gifts, I can recommend the VKB gladiator, loads of binds (pinky shift & mode 1/2 switch) plug and play and works well with my left T16000 stick.
https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/vkb-sim-gladiator-mk-ii-joystick/
https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/vkb-sim-gladiator-mk-ii-joystick/
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Just curious, because you focused on my comment about the inherent advantage of KBM+FAoff by talking exclusively about your precision fixed weapons aiming. And that's no small feat with HOTAS setup. Do you fly full time FAoff? Because my comment was about *both* the accuracy and maneuverability advantage of KBM. If so, you might be the only person I've come across that claims to fly full time FAoff with HOTAS (as opposed to toggling it on and off). And a big part of the KBM advantage is in the maneuverability granted by using FAoff (and its impact on lateral thruster acceleration) + Relative Mode, which is not available to stick users.
At any rate, it wasn't my intention to instigate (yet another) which is better and who's most advantaged, etc, debate. I'm just hoping to one-day find and see videos from a HOTAS user flying full-time FAoff and using fixed weapons in PvP combat (and being competitive against a skilled opponent). It'd be a huge inspiration to me to see that done, even if I have little hope of ever getting there myself!
Now THAT'S a pretty slick idea! Where/how did you find/craft that panel? It's genius!
I got the Constellation and very happy with it. It works great for the new exploration stuff with the FSS for instance. Using the mini-joystick for the tuner.
Yeah. There are two things I was challenged by: 1) the actual assembly. Didn't know you could pull the connector/cord out to connect it to the base before attaching the handle to it. 2) the driver/software is a bit confusing. Had to do a firmware upgrade before things worked properly, and the tool kept on telling me "no sync" (or something similar).
I'm considering buying the throttle as well, but it has to wait until after new years.
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Ok this game. works with m+k but a high precision and high quality stick is miles beyond.
Yes Virpil is overkill for elite, but elite is not a sim it's an arcade console game after all.
And besides Overkill is the really really good kind.
I have this year been replacing my CH hotas and pedals for exactly virpil gear.
And I was very surprised how much of a difference they made compared the CH that I thought was like being handed a "cheat" interface.
My current set up now consist of:
A t50 gimbal with a mongoose grip.
The mongoost-50 throttle (all 80 buttons worth, although you can only use 32 per device, in ed)
And just for Christmas I got myself the warbrd gimbal and I got a delta grip along with the throttle.
And a pair of MFG crosswinds for rudder control and toe brakes.
I have made adjustments since that photo, but can't be to take new ones (my phone's camera is pretty busted)
And here is some gimbal .
For some reason that pic got turned upside down.
That's the internal mechanisms of the WarBRD gimbal.
But that is a big jump from CH.
Now CH is based on sound mechanics and a principal.
of the seperated axes.
Unlike everything from Thrustmaster, Saitek/Logitech.
Meaning you can perfectly control input between 0-100% on any axis independent from the other.
Even the warthog cannot do this and most tweak this in software by adding output curves in firmware.
Ch does have these mechanical benefits, but ch does cut corners but slightly less than the others brands.
For instance they use quality buttons.
Especially in the wiring and the super old design.
And the now positively anachronistic pots they use.
I can finish this by saying I mostly fly either my corvette or vulture in ED.
On the corvette and with this set up I snipe out power plants on viper's and eagles routinely using fixed c4 beams.
Yes I have probably spent almost $1500 on this stuff.
But no regrets...
It does feel super insane everytime I think about the price but I forget that as soon as I strap in.
And yes I can attest to some initial setup.
These are not plug in and go.
Expect to disassemble a few times to switch cams and springs.
Especially the t-50 gimbal. Then again they no longer sell that.
The warBRD was much easier to switch cams on.
And the software still remains tricky.
But very potent.
All calibration and configuration gets stored on the device itself.
And these have no drift whatsoever.
You honestly won't need to even start the software until you decide to change major parts like the internal cams or the grip.
I used my stick for months without needing to calibrate.
Yes Virpil is overkill for elite, but elite is not a sim it's an arcade console game after all.
And besides Overkill is the really really good kind.
I have this year been replacing my CH hotas and pedals for exactly virpil gear.
And I was very surprised how much of a difference they made compared the CH that I thought was like being handed a "cheat" interface.
My current set up now consist of:
A t50 gimbal with a mongoose grip.
The mongoost-50 throttle (all 80 buttons worth, although you can only use 32 per device, in ed)
And just for Christmas I got myself the warbrd gimbal and I got a delta grip along with the throttle.
And a pair of MFG crosswinds for rudder control and toe brakes.
I have made adjustments since that photo, but can't be to take new ones (my phone's camera is pretty busted)
And here is some gimbal .
For some reason that pic got turned upside down.
That's the internal mechanisms of the WarBRD gimbal.
But that is a big jump from CH.
Now CH is based on sound mechanics and a principal.
of the seperated axes.
Unlike everything from Thrustmaster, Saitek/Logitech.
Meaning you can perfectly control input between 0-100% on any axis independent from the other.
Even the warthog cannot do this and most tweak this in software by adding output curves in firmware.
Ch does have these mechanical benefits, but ch does cut corners but slightly less than the others brands.
For instance they use quality buttons.
Especially in the wiring and the super old design.
And the now positively anachronistic pots they use.
I can finish this by saying I mostly fly either my corvette or vulture in ED.
On the corvette and with this set up I snipe out power plants on viper's and eagles routinely using fixed c4 beams.
Yes I have probably spent almost $1500 on this stuff.
But no regrets...
It does feel super insane everytime I think about the price but I forget that as soon as I strap in.
And yes I can attest to some initial setup.
These are not plug in and go.
Expect to disassemble a few times to switch cams and springs.
Especially the t-50 gimbal. Then again they no longer sell that.
The warBRD was much easier to switch cams on.
And the software still remains tricky.
But very potent.
All calibration and configuration gets stored on the device itself.
And these have no drift whatsoever.
You honestly won't need to even start the software until you decide to change major parts like the internal cams or the grip.
I used my stick for months without needing to calibrate.
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