Beyond convoluted.

I was flying around in my AspX, getting to grips with nu-mining, when I had a bit of an epiphany.

Unless I'm mistaken, Beyond brought us 4 specific changes to gameplay:-
- C&P.
- Engineering.
- Exploration.
- Mining.

In all these cases, it seems like they've taken a specific thing that was pretty simple and made it more complicated without actually expanding the scope of it very much.

C&P.
Used to be that you paid fines and ran away from bounties until they expired.
Now, lordy, I just don't have the strength.
Suffice to say, there are still fines and bounties but now there are IFs, prisons, hot ships, hot modules and all manner of nonsense.
Ultimately, we now get to pay off fines and bounties.

Engineering.
Used to be random. Boo!
Now you have to collect (or trade) a vast amount more mat's and then power-click your way through a bunch of mod's to get to the one you want.
Ultimately, we now get (usually) better mod's and we get to pick XFX's. Yay!

Exploration.
Used to be honk and then fly out to anything interesting so you can scan it.
Now you have to park in SC, switch modes, enter the FSS, twiddle a bunch of things in a UI that looks like something out of a 1990's RTS and then you fly out to anything interesting and shoot "energy bombs" at it to scan it.
Ultimately, we have to do the same stuff to complete all the possible tasks but we're now forced to look at a UI out of "C&C Space-Wars" to do it.

Mining.
We used to use prospectors to find the good stuff and then shoot at it to obtain it.
Now we have to fire "energy bombs" at rings to find the good stuff, then we have to go to it and scan it with some other doodad to find the good stuff (again) and then we have to use a heap of different gizmos to get the different types of good stuff out of the 'roids.

Now, to be clear, I'm happy to admit that I think these different things have achieved various levels of success.
The changes to engineering are pretty useful and collecting the extra mat's is a non-issue.
The changes to mining are very nicely implemented and make mining much more engaging.
The changes to exploration are useful but the procedures and tools are utter garbage.
C&P is a complete dumpster fire.

Thing is, in all these cases, what they've done is take a specific activity (mining, engineering, discovering bodies in a system etc) and make that activity more convoluted.
What they haven't done is expand the range of activities very much, if at all.
Which is, I think, what's disappointed me about Beyond. [sad]

In almost all cases, I find myself thinking that if they'd stuck with the original system and just changed it in some superficial ways then they probably could have achieved results similar to what we now have - without the effort of devoting a year of updates to it.

I guess the actual changes (with the exception of C&P) are improvements over what we had before but, overall, I find myself disappointed by Beyond and I think it's because I was hoping there'd be more stuff to do, rather than just making the stuff we already do more complex.


To finish on a high note, I have to reitterate that I am really impressed with what mining now is.
It's a really slick and immersive activity.
I just hope it doesn't become the way to earn credits in the game, to the exclusion of almost everything else.
 
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i don't think they devoted whole year to do all that, more like a month ore so.... at least it looks that way!
FD secrecy and dropping out biggest features from beyond and creating cheap looking popup screen minigame from 90's was buying time, for what... we'll see!
One would think they are capable of implementing new tools in ship UI.
 
Well there's the surface "mining" of found geological formations. And also the scenarios involving added new megastructures and megaships. Along with the analysis mode, I think it's a decent and possibly planned foundation for expanding the game in the future of ED. I also think Beyond greatly addressed issues the many demands from the player base wanted. Engineering was "fixed" (and I like it). Also C&P was improved from where it was. Material traders and tech brokers introduced a secondary currency to help stem the overinflation of credits and at the same time improved the playability of collecting mats for engineers not to mention the greatly expanded material ship storage. FSD booster effectively ended long complaints and inconvenience about certain ships not having enough FSD range. I'm pleased a lot was addressed and being on the leading edge of an enormously scoped spacesim game, ED could be "struggling" to push higher past technical and resource limitations and I believe they will continue to improve in the years to come for the next five years of ED's ten year progression and hopefully beyond.
 
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Sorry, I don't think mining is convoluted, the new engineering is scads better than before, mat traders are a bit borked, but it has saved time. C&P... I can't argue with your thoughts on that. I stopped doing surface scan missions because of it. I can't stand the extra layer of go to the interstellar fellars and pay a fine.

Exploration? At least you can find things now. Not a big fan of the FSS/DSS but at least you've now got tools.

The trade data is a very good, it would be nice to know the quantities of items at said port... But still very handy
 
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One man's "convoluted" is another man's "Fleshed out"...

Indeed.

The specific activities certainly have been "fleshed out" (with varying degrees of success) but they've had very little actually added to them.

To use exploration as an example, to me a "fleshed out" version of exploration should involve there being a bunch of new things to do, see, accomplish and interact with.
Simply pressing more buttons to achieve the same things isn't "fleshed out".
It's "padded".
 
Sorry, I don't think mining is convoluted, the new engineering is scads better than before, mat traders are a bit borked, but it has saved time. C&P... I can't argue with your thoughts on that. I stopped doing surface scan missions because of it. I can't stand the extra layer of go to the interstellar fellars and pay a fine.
Exploration? At least you can find things now. Not a big fan of the FSS/DSS but at least you've now got tools.

You know you pretty-much echoed my own sentiments about each of those things, right? :p
 
I think mining is great.

The codex is an enormous step in the right direction.

Squadrons - set one up, still haven't figured out if there is a voice channel, looks like it's only chat - tools appear to be consistent with about 2005.

I like the new exploration system. Finally I can find stuff on the surface with 1900s lat lon caca. I like reviewing the USSs available.

Leveling a mod from 1-5 is foolish on its face (build a wood bridge first, then replace it with steel?) C'mon that's bad design. Preserving legacy mods???? Ensures there can never be pvp balance.

Material traders are truly a band aid to the bad leveling design.

Crime and Punishment is tragically awful. It's like FDEV never played another MMO to see how PVE/PVP/Crime worked.

Single mission server serves up limited numbers of useful missions. The focus is still the BGS and not careers.

There are things that have potential but are currently broken -- CZs, half the time they don't populate with ships. Scenarios, attacking a target opponent (you're defending the station against pirates for example), will earn you a bounty.

Mamba is usable now. Haven't picked up a phantom yet, still enjoying my three Krait IIs.

Still not annoyed enough to bail and go X4 yet. If X4 was multiplayer, you'd see my colored exhaust trails...
 
Could be some are a bit more resistant to change.
I found the update quite workable including the controls changes. Just matter of working through it one part at a time.
 
One thing I remember you mentioning a while ago Stealthie was the annoyance of having to collect Mats from destroyed ships instead of "Zipping about like a WW1 fighter shooting everything in sight" or something like that, which I found myself to be in total agreement with. You were talking about the adding-on of things then too.
I'd even be up for a kind of tractor beam type module which quickly pulled them onboard to keep the action pumping.

Many of the new systems I like but I feel you with this.

Bruce Lee once said that a martial artist should be like a sculptor that chips away at the superfluous stone to create the desired result, he/she doesn't add to the chunk that's already there.
Perhaps FDev should be thinking about this sort of approach.
 
Indeed.

The specific activities certainly have been "fleshed out" (with varying degrees of success) but they've had very little actually added to them.

To use exploration as an example, to me a "fleshed out" version of exploration should involve there being a bunch of new things to do, see, accomplish and interact with.
Simply pressing more buttons to achieve the same things isn't "fleshed out".
It's "padded".
But there *are* a bunch of new things to see, accomplish, and interact with. Plus all the previously existing stuff is actually findable now, which makes it new to me at least.
 
I think people forget that crime and punishment work better now from a solo/single experience just as much as they were changed for PvP and player murder.

It's nice now that warrants, fines and being wanted are more in line with factions rather than everything everywhere wanting to kill you. You can now take an unlawful mission for your chosen factions go rinse some kills and not worry about the whole of the Federation or Empire coming after you or a random station deciding they fancy playing laser disco with your hull.

I personally rate the interstellar factors thing.
 

sollisb

Banned
I was flying around in my AspX, getting to grips with nu-mining, when I had a bit of an epiphany.

Unless I'm mistaken, Beyond brought us 4 specific changes to gameplay:-
- C&P.
- Engineering.
- Exploration.
- Mining.

In all these cases, it seems like they've taken a specific thing that was pretty simple and made it more complicated without actually expanding the scope of it very much.

C&P.
Used to be that you paid fines and ran away from bounties until they expired.
Now, lordy, I just don't have the strength.
Suffice to say, there are still fines and bounties but now there are IFs, prisons, hot ships, hot modules and all manner of nonsense.
Ultimately, we now get to pay off fines and bounties.

Engineering.
Used to be random. Boo!
Now you have to collect (or trade) a vast amount more mat's and then power-click your way through a bunch of mod's to get to the one you want.
Ultimately, we now get (usually) better mod's and we get to pick XFX's. Yay!

Exploration.
Used to be honk and then fly out to anything interesting so you can scan it.
Now you have to park in SC, switch modes, enter the FSS, twiddle a bunch of things in a UI that looks like something out of a 1990's RTS and then you fly out to anything interesting and shoot "energy bombs" at it to scan it.
Ultimately, we have to do the same stuff to complete all the possible tasks but we're now forced to look at a UI out of "C&C Space-Wars" to do it.

Mining.
We used to use prospectors to find the good stuff and then shoot at it to obtain it.
Now we have to fire "energy bombs" at rings to find the good stuff, then we have to go to it and scan it with some other doodad to find the good stuff (again) and then we have to use a heap of different gizmos to get the different types of good stuff out of the 'roids.

Now, to be clear, I'm happy to admit that I think these different things have achieved various levels of success.
The changes to engineering are pretty useful and collecting the extra mat's is a non-issue.
The changes to mining are very nicely implemented and make mining much more engaging.
The changes to exploration are useful but the procedures and tools are utter garbage.
C&P is a complete dumpster fire.

Thing is, in all these cases, what they've done is take a specific activity (mining, engineering, discovering bodies in a system etc) and make that activity more convoluted.
What they haven't done is expand the range of activities very much, if at all.
Which is, I think, what's disappointed me about Beyond. [sad]

In almost all cases, I find myself thinking that if they'd stuck with the original system and just changed it in some superficial ways then they probably could have achieved results similar to what we now have - without the effort of devoting a year of updates to it.

I guess the actual changes (with the exception of C&P) are improvements over what we had before but, overall, I find myself disappointed by Beyond and I think it's because I was hoping there'd be more stuff to do, rather than just making the stuff we already do more complex.


To finish on a high note, I have to reitterate that I am really impressed with what mining now is.
It's a really slick and immersive activity.
I just hope it doesn't become the way to earn credits in the game, to the exclusion of almost everything else.

In agreement with a lot of this, except the mining.

I actually feel like I'm mining. I get good rewards and for me, is as it should be. Before you. just scanned any old rock and then pointed lasers at it. Now you find the hotspot which narrows it down, from there narrow it down to a rock, and then set your charges which dictate (I'm sure mr random is in there) how much you get to collect. It's game and mining does it well. No water effort and good rewards for time spent.

The exploration thing is just bad. I wan't mad about going out into the black before, and the new exploration thing is just bad gimmickry badly done. We have amazing graphics then they dump a manure-fest screen like that on us.

C&P is just bad. When players are using a system as a badge of honour (to them at least) you know you've failed.

Engineers, meh.

I guess the success is in whatever each player perceives it to be; I never mined before, now I love it. I never explored before, and this new addition ensures I never will. C&P doesn't effect me so, whatever. And Engineers, is more a way of Frontier to trick out their NPCs to compensate for lack of AI. Ships that wake out before even being engaged is just a cheap mechanic, as is ships that ram themselves to death on the players ship. They really need an AI coder there, who knows what they're at.
 
Indeed.

The specific activities certainly have been "fleshed out" (with varying degrees of success) but they've had very little actually added to them.

To use exploration as an example, to me a "fleshed out" version of exploration should involve there being a bunch of new things to do, see, accomplish and interact with.
Simply pressing more buttons to achieve the same things isn't "fleshed out".
It's "padded".

But... there are a bunch of new things to do, see and interact with.
 
That seems to be FD's MO for ED.

Not adding anything new, just adding layers of tedium to the existing, scant activities.
 
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