Does the Vulture...

[Bob Lighthouse]

Pacs are tough to match with other weapons.
Since the FAS is pretty fast and nimble, I'd consider 2 rails and alternating them with the Pacs at different phases.
That's a pretty standard way to use PAs/rails; feed them the PAs as you pas, hit them with the rails at the apex.

The build I have from a very successful PVP pilot is all efficient PAs.
3x PA, 1 x rail seems fairly common too.

Don't forget to ram.

 

[Aashenfox]

Voila, FAS...

https://s.orbis.zone/1zx6

 

[pzykozomatik]

Voila, FAS...

https://s.orbis.zone/1zx6

That's pretty much the build I had planned, though I

- tend to favour fast charge bi-weaves and put the force block on the res aug boosters instead
- usually engineer the reactive bulkheads therm resist and make all the HRPs heavy

So only minor differences.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

That's pretty much the build I had planned, though I

- tend to favour fast charge bi-weaves and put the force block on the res aug boosters instead
- usually engineer the reactive bulkheads therm resist and make all the HRPs heavy

So only minor differences.

If you go Lo-draw the shield can recover with one pip, leaving you more to use in ENG/WEP while shields are down.

 

[Aashenfox]

That's pretty much the build I had planned, though I

- tend to favour fast charge bi-weaves and put the force block on the res aug boosters instead
- usually engineer the reactive bulkheads therm resist and make all the HRPs heavy

So only minor differences.

If you can combine that to get the resists and recharge you want, awesome. The thing about shield specials is that because of the size of the module (I assume) you get more kinetic resist from force block on the shield than two force block boosters. Using fast charge and NOT using super caps on the boosters, I feel will reduce the mj to an unacceptable level (because accidental contact happens and so do PAs).

The alternatives, as you said yourself are fast charge, which on a 45 sec shield I find of negligible benefit, and hi cap, which is nice, but increases recharge at teh same percentage so really doesn't change anything except give you a tad more protection against PAs and rams. Just explaining why I chose to balance that way, not saying my way is necessarily better. This is what makes the Lakon ships such amazing hybrids, good hull AND shield.

One thing I will outright disagree with, is thermal on reactive bulks. You get a MASSIVE armor buff from heavy duty, which can never be made up on the HRPs, however, the thermal resist can, with just one size 2 HRP. It is definitely more optimal to go HD on the bulks and one small thermal HRP, and that goes for if you use heavy duty deep or lightweight deep (which is also very viable, the slightly better resistances almost make up for the loss of raw armor).

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Seems to me you way overthink the resistances, frankly:

Going with lo-draw and HD/SC boosters:

More absolute: + 22.3%
a little less kinetic: - 7.3%
slightly more thermal, but only + 5MJ or <+1%

You also get the lo draw benefit to broken regen.

https://s.orbis.zone/1zxu

 

[pzykozomatik]

One thing I will outright disagree with, is thermal on reactive bulks. You get a MASSIVE armor buff from heavy duty, which can never be made up on the HRPs, however, the thermal resist can, with just one size 2 HRP. It is definitely more optimal to go HD on the bulks and one small thermal HRP, and that goes for if you use heavy duty deep or lightweight deep (which is also very viable, the slightly better resistances almost make up for the loss of raw armor).

I think you're right. I guess I mostly do it my way because I like to have the option to put a totally different loadout into the optional slots without screwing up the overall resistances. So thermal resist reactive bulkheads always give me a fairly balanced result even if I forget to put a thermal resist HRP.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I think you're right. I guess I mostly do it my way because I like to have the option to put a totally different loadout into the optional slots without screwing up the overall resistances. So thermal resist reactive bulkheads always give me a fairly balanced result even if I forget to put a thermal resist HRP.

That sacrifices about 200 Mj absolute and nearly 400Mj explosive for about 100 MJ thermal, which imo is the least of your worries when shields are down.
NPCs use missiles, players do that and ram.

 

[Heater]

May I ask why you only use shield strenght modding instead of resistances? Your survivability against thermal weapons is worse and you effectively lower the already low recharge rate of the standard shields as well as the overall benefit the SCBs provide.

My Fighting style is to get in very close, and tend to stick to the underside of the ship... with the FAS i find it quite easy to stay close, and have not really had an issue with the thermal side of it.
I use the LR PA's for the speed and taking out the modules.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Thermal weapons also have some of the lowest damage output and worst falloff.

DPS on an OC Pacifier is more than 10x that of an efficient beam; 32:367.
Even the sustained is almost 50% higher(32:45), but doesn't require the TOT.

 

[Vedmo]

If you can combine that to get the resists and recharge you want, awesome. The thing about shield specials is that because of the size of the module (I assume) you get more kinetic resist from force block on the shield than two force block boosters. Using fast charge and NOT using super caps on the boosters, I feel will reduce the mj to an unacceptable level (because accidental contact happens and so do PAs).

The alternatives, as you said yourself are fast charge, which on a 45 sec shield I find of negligible benefit, and hi cap, which is nice, but increases recharge at teh same percentage so really doesn't change anything except give you a tad more protection against PAs and rams. Just explaining why I chose to balance that way, not saying my way is necessarily better. This is what makes the Lakon ships such amazing hybrids, good hull AND shield.

One thing I will outright disagree with, is thermal on reactive bulks. You get a MASSIVE armor buff from heavy duty, which can never be made up on the HRPs, however, the thermal resist can, with just one size 2 HRP. It is definitely more optimal to go HD on the bulks and one small thermal HRP, and that goes for if you use heavy duty deep or lightweight deep (which is also very viable, the slightly better resistances almost make up for the loss of raw armor).

I've wondered before (in reference to HD on reactive armor with a 2 thermal HRP) if grade 3 or 4 might even be better than 5, balancing thermal gain against loss to other 2.

Ever look at that?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I've wondered before (in reference to HD on reactive armor with a 2 thermal HRP) if grade 3 or 4 might even be better than 5, balancing thermal gain against loss to other 2.

Ever look at that?

You lose out due to the absolute.
Just looking at the bulkheads:

768 abs 555 therm for g4 HD/deep
798 abs 583 therm for g5 HD/deep

 

[Aashenfox]

I've wondered before (in reference to HD on reactive armor with a 2 thermal HRP) if grade 3 or 4 might even be better than 5, balancing thermal gain against loss to other 2.

Ever look at that?

I haven't, but it is an interesting thought. Thanks for the out of the box idea, I may do some experimentation. I can think of 2 reasons right off the bat though...It's godly convenient that a single HRP of ANY size, even size 1, can have enough thermal resistance to cover the entire deficit at G5 HD (or lightweight) on the Reactive bulk, giving every single armor point to all resistances at teh same time. This is particularly valuable cos there are no diminishing returns on pure armor, every single point counts the same. Still, it is a thought, thanks

 

[XW_Ziggy]

Canopy loss in a Vulture is usually a sign that you're losing the fight badly and ought to run away regardless.

The vulture's high shielding and limited internals make it a bad hull tank and sub-optimal hybrid. It's also one of the most agile ships in the game. If you're taking a whole load of canopy damage it means you're either outmatched, or using the wrong tool for the job.

Yes, you can configure a Vulture as an immobile hull-tank but it's as poorly-suited to that role as the T-9 is to racing. What you should really be thinking is:

1. Why I am I taking hull/canopy damage at all? This ship has the potential to evade and get behind pretty much everything in the game that's a threat to it.
2. What happened to my giant shields? and why am I hull-tanking in this low-armour thing when it's so fast I could easily get out of weapons range in a hurry.
3. I'm a n00b and failed to fit MRPs to my quirky, "screw conventional wisdom" hull-tank. Help!
4. Rebuy is imminent, why haven't I high-waked yet?
5. Where's the nearest shipyard that'll sell me an Alliance Challenger that I can turn into a hull tank with 13K eHP? That's how I wanna play and this Vulture ain't cutting it.

 

[Vedmo]

You lose out due to the absolute.
Just looking at the bulkheads:

768 abs 555 therm for g4 HD/deep
798 abs 583 therm for g5 HD/deep

I'm sorry, didn't mean going lower grade on the bulkhead, but rather the hrp that's getting thermal.

For a size 2 G3 thermal HRP you gain ~27 thermal resist at the cost of about 5 exp/kinetic, g5 gains 40 thermal at the cost of 9 to the other two. I guess it becomes pretty subjective based on what your aiming for between individual resists.

I've played with it on my Chieftain, but to be honest when a few other HD HRPs are thrown in and diminishing returns play a factor, it is above my comprehension.

 

[Aashenfox]

I'm sorry, didn't mean going lower grade on the bulkhead, but rather the hrp that's getting thermal.

For a size 2 G3 thermal HRP you gain ~27 thermal resist at the cost of about 5 exp/kinetic, g5 gains 40 thermal at the cost of 9 to the other two. I guess it becomes pretty subjective based on what your aiming for between individual resists.

I've played with it on my Chieftain, but to be honest when a few other HD HRPs are thrown in and diminishing returns play a factor, it is above my comprehension.

I see what you mean, but we're talking about resistances that are already superbly balanced. If you want to ever so slightly push it toward kinetic and explosive, cos they are indeed more common in pvp, it might be worth mathing out. I'll have a play with it.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I'm sorry, didn't mean going lower grade on the bulkhead, but rather the hrp that's getting thermal.

For a size 2 G3 thermal HRP you gain ~27 thermal resist at the cost of about 5 exp/kinetic, g5 gains 40 thermal at the cost of 9 to the other two. I guess it becomes pretty subjective based on what your aiming for between individual resists.

I've played with it on my Chieftain, but to be honest when a few other HD HRPs are thrown in and diminishing returns play a factor, it is above my comprehension.

In a full build with several HRPs you'll hit diminishing returns anyhow.
That's why you want to use the smallest one, to minimize the hit to absolute.

 

[Vedmo]

In a full build with several HRPs you'll hit diminishing returns anyhow.
That's why you want to use the smallest one, to minimize the hit to absolute.

I think that's the obvious answer I was missing, thanks!

Sorry to go a bit off topic, OP, and thanks to the resident theory crafters, you are appreciated.

 

[Mohrgan]

With all of this talk about the FAS, an excellent and one time favorite, someone should really bring up the aChief. The aChief is as, or more nimble than an FAS. It has more hard points, offering excellent flexibility. Hard point placement on the aChief just plain embarrasses the FAS. I can only split my weapons top-bottom on the FAS, I find it hard to line all weapons up at the same time. The aChief top loads most of it's weapons, and front loads what isn't on top. Making it much easier to have all six weapons available at the same time. I think it's because the bottom (all?) weapons on the FAS are so far aft.

I use a laser heavy load out with Frag(s) as spike damage. I do this to extend my time in combat. Up close, a full three round blast from a large Frag or two can tear pieces off. So I keep the pressure up with the lasers, and knock off hull points with the Frag(s). A Cannon can be effective as well, especially back when PP sniping was good, but Frags just shred hull points and, give your Capacitor a break.

Otherwise an FAS is a great combat choice. The Vulture is a specialty thing. I take mine out for that experience, but a medium ship just gets more done, with a ton more flexibility. As an extension to that line of thought, the aChief does the same thing comparing it to the FAS.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You can also just look at the bulkheads +1 thermal HRP G4/G5 and see the difference is pretty negligible for kinetic/explosive.

That will get absorbed by the diminishing returns.