PvP PvP Noob Etiquette...?

[Hellfire85]

Maybe it has been said but just in case,
The unwritten PvP rules, such as no crime report, no premium ammo also include, in case of a wing fight, no low waking and coming back and no coming back after death. If your wing has to deal with another wing that keeps calling in other CMDRs I think it's safe to come back and spit on the rules above.
In the end, it's all about fun tho.
Fly how you like and decide for yourself.
Once you are getting better, you will turn off crimes anyways, that's how it went for me

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Has no one mentioned no healies yet?

The drama in ps4 community over whether they are valid or not is a major reason I haven't yet become involved in extensive wing combat. By drama, I mean maybe 1 or 2 wings persist on using them and everyone else pretty much looks down on those guys in terms of playstyle (although I like some of them, personally).

I'm firmly of the opinion, healies are stupidly overpowered and should be removed or heavily nerfed.

Anyway, just be aware many (most?) groups consider them OP and might avoid fight or otherwise make your experience unpleasant if they consider you a healies 4 feelies type.

I have told my PS4 friends afflicted with this strange disease of using healies, that if I'm ever in a wing with them and they heal me, I will self destruct just to throw the match to the other team.

That said, there are PvP'ers who have the mindset - if the tool is there, use it. So it is what it is. My stance is for my own peace of mind, and puts me at a clear disadvantage if I face a group with healies.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I'm just annoyed at the hypocrisy by some players.

<Player loses to packhound ship> packhounds are bad
<Player wins against hulltank with packhounds> haha git gud scrub
<Player loses against crimes on CMDR> turn crimes off you scrub KOS KOS
<Player attacks CMDR together with another CMDR> haha git gud scrub

So therefore in regards to OP: etiquette is worth nothing if you lose, and worth all if you win, or in other words: play as you like. There will always be people who complain or be sore losers.

Not always true. For example I got killed by a dual seeker user who targeted my drives. Seekers are OP and only the borderline PvP noobs use it (and some even synth to use them as main damage source).
However, I don't use seekers. It's disgusting to use them and it certainly doesn't feel rewarding to kill someone with them. It's so easy, I could very well use an autoclicker and just look into the general direction of my opponent. Easy win.

Also seekers contribute to the shield stack plague. The only reliable defense for seekers is not an ECM, nor a PDT and even TLB has been nerfed so we are only and yes, limited to a shield generator. A shield is the only reliable defense despite it not being anti-seeker specialized like ECMs and PDTs.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

even TLB has been nerfed

Is this 100% confirmed yet? I read a thread where it was nerfed in one video. But saw another test where against a wingmate, seemed to still work the old way.

No excuse for FDev not mentioning this in release notes so we're certain.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Is this 100% confirmed yet? I read a thread where it was nerfed in one video. But saw another test where against a wingmate, seemed to still work the old way.

No excuse for FDev not mentioning this in release notes so we're certain.

I tested it and there now is a 5-6 second cooldown.

 

[Treptower Park]

Not always true. For example I got killed by a dual seeker user who targeted my drives. Seekers are OP and only the borderline PvP noobs use it (and some even synth to use them as main damage source).
However, I don't use seekers. It's disgusting to use them and it certainly doesn't feel rewarding to kill someone with them. It's so easy, I could very well use an autoclicker and just look into the general direction of my opponent. Easy win.

Also seekers contribute to the shield stack plague. The only reliable defense for seekers is not an ECM, nor a PDT and even TLB has been nerfed so we are only and yes, limited to a shield generator. A shield is the only reliable defense despite it not being anti-seeker specialized like ECMs and PDTs.

And there´s Silent Running, Heat Sinks, Screening Shell Frags or building a fast ship to evade. I´m a noob and will happily use any tactical advantage available to me in the wild Open. For pre-arranged duels esp in small ships I agree with you though.

 

[Bortas]

That said, there are PvP'ers who have the mindset - if the tool is there, use it. So it is what it is. My stance is for my own peace of mind, and puts me at a clear disadvantage if I face a group with healies.

That's the way to go... there's always people who don't like one weapon or special effect or whatever, especially if it hard-counters their favorite playstyle... like hull tankers hate seekers, SCB-tankers hate feedback cascade and so on. Personally I always hated TLB because I found it so incredibly annoying... but they were there and everyone was using it, so I had to accept it and deal with it. Of course I am very happy about the new cooldown, but understand why other's don't like the change. Things are always changing and rebalanced and we have do adapt. It's not the first time and certainly not the last time, a meta was squished. I doubt that seekers become the new meta, because they are only useful in certain constellations, i.e. useless against shields, which most players have. But if against all odds everybody starts using seekers, they will probably get their balance pass, too.

Until then we have to accept that everything what's in the game is completely acceptable to use. Calling players who are using them names is bad style and won't help. You either have to find a way to counter it or disengage and wake out. Everything can be countered and nobody is forcing anyone to pick up a fight. If you are not equipped to fight ageinst a certain loadout, don't engage.

 

[StiTch]

1-v-1mebros will frequently refuse to engage in anything but a single opponent they probably already know they can beat, unless the wing is...on their side. Then they're usually quite happy to team gank someone or employ other unfair advantage. As long as it's them with it.

Do what makes you happy, Cosmic. If you are white-knighting then you are playing the exact kinda emergent content the game should deliver-you're here to take down griffors, not engage in rock-paper-scissors PvP. Hell, take it a step further and organise your group to gank the criminals. Learn to have them drop in on your signal and have a chance of besting a single gankmobile that actually knows how to fight.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

1-v-1mebros will frequently refuse to engage in anything but a single opponent they probably already know they can beat, unless the wing is...on their side. Then they're usually quite happy to team gank someone or employ other unfair advantage. As long as it's them with it.

Do what makes you happy, Cosmic. If you are white-knighting then you are playing the exact kinda emergent content the game should deliver-you're here to take down griffors, not engage in rock-paper-scissors PvP. Hell, take it a step further and organise your group to gank the criminals. Learn to have them drop in on your signal and have a chance of besting a single gankmobile that actually knows how to fight.

Nope, not true. I'm one of the "1v1mebros".

Read the signature to the post.

Most people who look for 1v1's don't actualy enjoy the ganking as much as it's made out, because there is very little challenge in melting a single ship, however well its setup, with four overpowered murdermobiles. Theres no skill improement for anyone in those fights.

And don't do the white knight thing, just look for fights, some will be worse than you , some better, you often don't know until you engage and limiting yourself on potential targets is just going to gimp your abilities in the long term.

Dont hit obvious noobs at all, thats pretty scummy, but if someone is flying a shieldless trader or explorer (Again not obvious noobs, people who should know better) then chew away. No point in limiting yourself when you are considering PvP as a playstyle.


Sure people get upset about it, but if you're not talking crap, or being genuinely unpleasent (Retargeting the same people over and over/Hurling abuse when it doesnt go your way) You're just playing the game like everyone else.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

And there´s Silent Running, Heat Sinks, Screening Shell Frags or building a fast ship to evade. I´m a noob and will happily use any tactical advantage available to me in the wild Open. For pre-arranged duels esp in small ships I agree with you though.

^This.

I also hated seekers for a long time (Run small hull tanks), but after a while of using the 1sec on 2 off SR trick you get a rythum for it. Also in the smaller ships you can quite often just outrun missiles, especially spackhounds.

Moreover when you are in something small you have the potential to have a TTK counter on your head equal to, if not higher than FDL's. It will take a lot of time and practice, but the small ships can be some of the most dangerous opponents if flown well.

But seekers are absolutley too op. Can be easily avoided yes, but as soon as you get hit by one with emissive, you're screwed unless you can run away. Honestly I think seekers are overpowered for nothing other than that effect. Emissive is absolutely 100% a crutch for people who can't target aquisition. Absolute cancer.

 

[StiTch]

Nope, not true. I'm one of the "1v1mebros".

Read the signature to the post.

Most people who look for 1v1's don't actualy enjoy the ganking as much as it's made out, because there is very little challenge in melting a single ship, however well its setup, with four overpowered murdermobiles. Theres no skill improement for anyone in those fights.

I said "frequently" my friend, I didn't say all players that enjoy one-on-one duels are macho gankers preying on the weak. Those that fly the smaller ships are more likely to enjoy the skill aspect.

Unfortunately, speaking as someone that was a 1-v-1mebro before I became a chef and lost all concept of spare time, "natural" 1-v-1s aren't a wonderful indicator of skill as the game is way too rock/paper/scissors heavy. Wing fights - as in co-ordinated wing against wing fights - are the main skill point in PvP here, but alas I never found the right group to really get involved in this.

And don't do the white knight thing, just look for fights, some will be worse than you , some better, you often don't know until you engage and limiting yourself on potential targets is just going to gimp your abilities in the long term.

Dont hit obvious noobs at all, thats pretty scummy, but if someone is flying a shieldless trader or explorer (Again not obvious noobs, people who should know better) then chew away. No point in limiting yourself when you are considering PvP as a playstyle.

OP can play how he wants and has no obligation to become a 1-v-1mebro.

 

[starman]

'A noob protector'

Feel safe already..

 

[Crimson Kaim]

And there´s Silent Running, Heat Sinks, Screening Shell Frags or building a fast ship to evade. I´m a noob and will happily use any tactical advantage available to me in the wild Open. For pre-arranged duels esp in small ships I agree with you though.

Silent running has zero effect on already tracking seekers.
Silent running has zero effect when hit by any emissive weapon once.
Silent running has 1000% increased heat build-up
Silent running has a stealth delay of 2 seconds and a heat cool-down (after you exit SR) of 5 seconds
Silent running disables your shields.

Heatsinks have limited ammo of a maximum of 4 whereas seekers can mount 100+ missiles.
Heatsinks take 10 times longer to synth.
Heatsinks are not a specialized anti-seeker module.

Screening shell is unreliable as latency can cause an instant damage source from up to relative velocity multiplied by latency in seconds [distance]. Meaning you have 0% chance to shoot them.
Screening shell is only available to frags.
Screening shell is not specialized against seekers and increase your DPS by 100%.
Screening shell has limited ammo just about 1.8 times more than a C3 seeker.

Fast ships go up to ~600 m/s (Mamba), the average speed, however, is a little over 500 m/s while seekers go 625 m/s.
Fast ships are unaffected by relative speed when it comes to seekers (and missiles as a whole) -> rewards reverski.
Fast ships can not boost backwards to avoid seekers and still be able to attack your opponent (turrets are an exception).
Fast ships can not dodge a seeker missile as they have a 100% hitrate unless outranged.

Sure, for a noob a seeker is the best decision as it allows for unskilled players to be effective and here is the point why seekers are OP. Unskilled players shouldn't be effective against skilled pilots and that is usually the case unless seekers are thrown into the game.
I wouldn't complain if there would be a reliable seeker counter. Let it be SR, PDTs, ECM, etc. but that is not happening as of now. Seekers hit, period. You don't even need to do anything for it.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Intersting info and run-down on silent running/seekers Kaim; I note you state that ECM is not a reliable seeker counter, could you expand on this a bit further. Is it due to latency or possible point blank firing or is there a bug with the ECM?

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Intersting info and run-down on silent running/seekers Kaim; I note you state that ECM is not a reliable seeker counter, could you expand on this a bit further. Is it due to latency or possible point blank firing or is there a bug with the ECM?

From what I understand (Kaim can probably improve my explanation), the only remotely viable approach is to carry dual ECM and perfectly stagger your alternating timing over the course of most of the fight. so a counter requiring skilled usage to offset one of the easiest weapons in the game to use.

Medium hybrids can't realistically carry dual ECM, so if their shields are down, hounds are grave danger. Pure hulltank can dual ecm, but still difficult to use.

Just one ECM, it will run out, and then the hounds come get you.

Same applies to seekers but hounds worse due to disabling weapons and drives so quickly if shields are down. Also because PDT is utterly useless against packhounds due to how many there are.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Silent running has zero effect on already tracking seekers.
Silent running has zero effect when hit by any emissive weapon once.
Silent running has 1000% increased heat build-up
Silent running has a stealth delay of 2 seconds and a heat cool-down (after you exit SR) of 5 seconds
Silent running disables your shields.

Heatsinks have limited ammo of a maximum of 4 whereas seekers can mount 100+ missiles.
Heatsinks take 10 times longer to synth.
Heatsinks are not a specialized anti-seeker module.

Screening shell is unreliable as latency can cause an instant damage source from up to relative velocity multiplied by latency in seconds [distance]. Meaning you have 0% chance to shoot them.
Screening shell is only available to frags.
Screening shell is not specialized against seekers and increase your DPS by 100%.
Screening shell has limited ammo just about 1.8 times more than a C3 seeker.

Fast ships go up to ~600 m/s (Mamba), the average speed, however, is a little over 500 m/s while seekers go 625 m/s.
Fast ships are unaffected by relative speed when it comes to seekers (and missiles as a whole) -> rewards reverski.
Fast ships can not boost backwards to avoid seekers and still be able to attack your opponent (turrets are an exception).
Fast ships can not dodge a seeker missile as they have a 100% hitrate unless outranged.

Sure, for a noob a seeker is the best decision as it allows for unskilled players to be effective and here is the point why seekers are OP. Unskilled players shouldn't be effective against skilled pilots and that is usually the case unless seekers are thrown into the game.
I wouldn't complain if there would be a reliable seeker counter. Let it be SR, PDTs, ECM, etc. but that is not happening as of now. Seekers hit, period. You don't even need to do anything for it.

Some of this is definatly true, but there are some things you have wrong.

The "Stealth delay" is merely the time that the opponent can retain targeting. Missile lock is removed instantly upon closing vents.

And fast ships can indeed dodge missiles. Granted they have to be very fast, so outranging tends to be more efficient, however both iCouriers and Viper IIIs have enough lateral acceleration to sidestep missiles, though they will often circle round and try to reconnect, the Viper at least goes from 0 to max every boost meaning you can juke missiles (With a bit of luck) The Courier, if it has enough current momentum, can also sidestep missiles, however it will not allow you to out pace the missile on it's return towards your thrusters (2 to 3 boosts to reach top end).

They are still ludicrously overpowered though. The high capacity modification should not be avalible on C2/C3 seekers due to the absured amount of avalible munitions, (Especially not Fing Spackhounds). The C1's could either keep the mod, or indeed just have a small increase to thier base ammo pool, otherwise they are too far the other way.

Emissive should straight up be removed. Since the nerf hammer smashed TLB into the dirt there is now no defence from emissive aside from being able to significantly outrange your opponent. This is where I feel seekers are especially broken.

The splash damage is not only enough to fully cake several modules at once within a very much smaller volume of hits than any other weapons (Including HYS which is effectively a huge HEAP tank round even). But throwing emissive in actually ruins any sense of fair play Elite might have left, not very much it must be said, but still.

It's 40+ seconds of emissive particles on your ship from a SINGLE ROCKET. Meaning if you have anything other than a Viper or iCourier, you're eating thirty more. Moreover, it is re-applied instantly and the timer is reset upon another missile connecting. But no, the thing to stop aimbot spam gets the nerf instead of the blatant crutch perk designed for people with absolutely a big fat ZERO on the skill tree.

I really don't understand FDev's logic when it comes to balance issues. In every other twitch based game, the hardest to use weapons are the most powerful. (Elites equivilents should be Rails and Plasmas) However FDev's idea of game balance is to give the people who blatantly won't put in the effort to become proficient, a free pass to victory. Thus undermining the entire skill based game idea.

No gaming community appriciates "Click Win" weaponry. In anything. Ever. Like at all.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

From what I understand (Kaim can probably improve my explanation), the only remotely viable approach is to carry dual ECM and perfectly stagger your alternating timing over the course of most of the fight. so a counter requiring skilled usage to offset one of the easiest weapons in the game to use.

Medium hybrids can't realistically carry dual ECM, so if their shields are down, hounds are grave danger. Pure hulltank can dual ecm, but still difficult to use.

Just one ECM, it will run out, and then the hounds come get you.

Same applies to seekers but hounds worse due to disabling weapons and drives so quickly if shields are down. Also because PDT is utterly useless against packhounds due to how many there are.

Speed and silent running are fine until Emissive is in play, that is the biggest issue. Seekers need a nerf yes, but emissive essentially removes all the countermeasures from play instantaeneously.

 

[Bortas]

Silent running has zero effect on already tracking seekers.

This applies to TLB, too, though.

Silent running has zero effect when hit by any emissive weapon once.

True. Maybe it's emissive which needs a balance pass... maybe limit the effect to a relatively short period followed by a cooldown.

Silent running disables your shields.

Which isn't a problem in this case, because if your shields are up, missiles won't hurt you anway.

Heatsinks are not a specialized anti-seeker module.

Personally I got good results with point defence when I put one on top and one on the bottom of my ship, unless the opponent is really stuffed with missile launchers. This would of course completely disable him to fight anything else but hull tanks, so probably not the best choice. Pack hounds are an exception of course, but they are also easier to outrun.

Fast ships go up to ~600 m/s (Mamba), the average speed, however, is a little over 500 m/s while seekers go 625 m/s.

True, but seekers are very short-lived. If the speed difference is not too big, they usually can't catch up in time.

Sure, for a noob a seeker is the best decision as it allows for unskilled players to be effective and here is the point why seekers are OP. Unskilled players shouldn't be effective against skilled pilots and that is usually the case unless seekers are thrown into the game.

I don't think it has anything to do with skill... it's a typical rock/paper/scissor thing... Seekers are useless against anything but hull tanks, which are only used by a minority of PvPers. And if you are in a hull tank, don't attack a ship with seekers... just as you wouldn't attack a ship with reverberating mines, when flying a slow shield tank There's a lot of annoying stuff in the game, but we have to live with it.

Personally I'm using seekers on some of my more cumbersome builds (i.e Python/Dropship) because I don't like fighting agile hull tanks in them, so I bring seekers... if they attack me anyway, well... their choice. If that qualifies me as a noob then so be it.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

This applies to TLB, too, though.



True. Maybe it's emissive which needs a balance pass... maybe limit the effect to a relatively short period followed by a cooldown.



Which isn't a problem in this case, because if your shields are up, missiles won't hurt you anway.



Personally I got good results with point defence when I put one on top and one on the bottom of my ship, unless the opponent is really stuffed with missile launchers. This would of course completely disable him to fight anything else but hull tanks, so probably not the best choice. Pack hounds are an exception of course, but they are also easier to outrun.



True, but seekers are very short-lived. If the speed difference is not too big, they usually can't catch up in time.



I don't think it has anything to do with skill... it's a typical rock/paper/scissor thing... Seekers are useless against anything but hull tanks, which are only used by a minority of PvPers. And if you are in a hull tank, don't attack a ship with seekers... just as you wouldn't attack a ship with reverberating mines, when flying a slow shield tank There's a lot of annoying stuff in the game, but we have to live with it.

Personally I'm using seekers on some of my more cumbersome builds (i.e Python/Dropship) because I don't like fighting agile hull tanks in them, so I bring seekers... if they attack me anyway, well... their choice. If that qualifies me as a noob then so be it.

I agree with this sentiment, they should have thier place. But coupled with the effects avalible, an the enourmous ammo pool, they are straight up broken.

I'd be very happy to see emissive removed, or changed to be only applied when striking the target, otherwise no effect, certainly not this 40+ seconds bull we have currently. But seekers would still need a serious ammo reduction to be remotely in line with other weapony.

A serious balance pass is needed on multiple fronts to make missiles both have a palce and not be a free pass to trolling hull tanks.

Shields down combat is broken already due to hitpoint overinflation. Thats not likely to change at all, so the next direct culprit is missiles. and they are an absolute pox.

 

[Treptower Park]

Silent running has zero effect on already tracking seekers.
Silent running has zero effect when hit by any emissive weapon once.
Silent running has 1000% increased heat build-up
Silent running has a stealth delay of 2 seconds and a heat cool-down (after you exit SR) of 5 seconds
Silent running disables your shields.

Heatsinks have limited ammo of a maximum of 4 whereas seekers can mount 100+ missiles.
Heatsinks take 10 times longer to synth.
Heatsinks are not a specialized anti-seeker module.

Screening shell is unreliable as latency can cause an instant damage source from up to relative velocity multiplied by latency in seconds [distance]. Meaning you have 0% chance to shoot them.
Screening shell is only available to frags.
Screening shell is not specialized against seekers and increase your DPS by 100%.
Screening shell has limited ammo just about 1.8 times more than a C3 seeker.

Fast ships go up to ~600 m/s (Mamba), the average speed, however, is a little over 500 m/s while seekers go 625 m/s.
Fast ships are unaffected by relative speed when it comes to seekers (and missiles as a whole) -> rewards reverski.
Fast ships can not boost backwards to avoid seekers and still be able to attack your opponent (turrets are an exception).
Fast ships can not dodge a seeker missile as they have a 100% hitrate unless outranged.

Sure, for a noob a seeker is the best decision as it allows for unskilled players to be effective and here is the point why seekers are OP. Unskilled players shouldn't be effective against skilled pilots and that is usually the case unless seekers are thrown into the game.
I wouldn't complain if there would be a reliable seeker counter. Let it be SR, PDTs, ECM, etc. but that is not happening as of now. Seekers hit, period. You don't even need to do anything for it.

I agree that each of your point has a point! Thanks for the rundown.
In practice it does look a bit different in my books:

A shield tank needs to worry less about seekers since they´re rather ineffective vs shields unless overloaded. And when you get a shield tanks shields down its time for him to run anyways in most cases.

A hybrid is more vulnerable, sure. But once your shields are down, you can immediately play the SR on/off game. Toggle every 4 secs or so and the seekers wont get a lock ever. You can check if your opponent has missiles before the fight, so you know its going to happen and can act accordingly.
And with fast charge on a bi-weaves your shields should be back up after a minute or so.

Since I´m using seekers myself, I know that point defense is indeed a proper counter. More often than not I see them splode ahead of time. Mount it on your back to protect the thrusters and I believe there´s a 50/50 chance of them coming trough.

Full hulltanks will often run up to 16 heatsinks or 12 plus point defense. Combined with low emmisisons PP, clean drives, proper boost use and low heat weapons, a well built SR runner can stay silent for ages. (Just met one at the CG. Absolutely no chance to dance for my sorry equipped w/ Phasing Bursts & Seekers)

You might have a point with emissive. Never used it myself before and I dont know how it works and if its that bad. But since silent ships are kinda out of fashion (I believe even because of emissive?) emissive is rarely used these days, is it?

I think it boils down to a combination of all available counters vs seekers.
See it like that: You Pro´s have your devestating PAs that we beginners need to learn to dodge. Let us have our one-button-no skill-toys so we stand even the smallest chance of being a bit inconvenient. Sure, it takes more skill to know when and how to use which countermeasure. But that defines what you actually are: A skilled pro pilot, that smokes wannabes even if they´re using OP weaponry