PvP Griefing is fundamentally unrelated to build/power imbalance; aka I just ganked a conda from an SRV

[Sup3rfluiD]

As all dedicated players know, to play Elite Dangerous well and with understanding does require access to 'third party' Apps Web sites, Communications

It's just Frontier says it doesn't support third party as that 'policy' is clearly the most cost effective, and cost effectiveness is what companies are all about as the p2p network mode showed, been very 'cost effective'.

I see a day ( all ready long reached most would say) when the reliance on third Party support be it Apps, Web sites, Communications or to know How, When, or Where, becomes an unfair advantage over other players who don't' access those "third party helpers"

Elite dangerous is becoming a game of the "The Haves and the Have Nots" and it has nothing to do with Skill but who is accessing those Third Party apps and the information and help they provide, coupled with the understanding, the machinations one needs to learn within those Third Party apps to gleam information, and get them to work as you want.


I have nothing but respect for most of the Third Party app associated with Frontier they enhance the playability of Elite Dangerous, as there's nothing in the game to provide those enhancements for everyone.

So an inherent unbalance is happening a clear division is emerging. For if your one of the "Have Nots" you're at the mercy of others, who do have and use "third party helpers"

Frontier within Elite Dangerous needs to re-think the concepts of fairness given the mantra of "Blaze your own Trail, can one really do that alone with others about ?

There will always be "third party helpers" there just needs to be the equivalent in game for all.

I dont think theres really a justification under these terms.
The most prevalent and most useful have mainly been created by commanders frustrated by the lack provided support. These have become fundamental and available to all.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Next time rack that premium ammo and smoke that sucker proper!

o7

 

[Speedcuffs]

Next time rack that premium ammo and smoke that sucker proper!

o7

NB: if available.

It's all good![yesnod]

 

[sutex]

(Edited slightly for clarification)

Apps. This is where the line should be drawn. Plugins should not be permitted under the Tos.

I'd love to see just how many can actually fly. Because with all the folk supposedly who are "ace" (YEAH RIGHT) PvPers seem to rely on what are essentially "Driver aides".

It's funny that people need to find apps to help them win as opposd to actually putting in effort. lol.

Don't think there's that type of 'Help' with Apps in the game and Frontier is very watchful of anything which gives more control to a player with an outside tool over others the Ship or environment

Having said that Sup3rfluiD quote below does sum up what is happening;

My concern is not that Players are using Third party helpers I'm using Third party helpers is that to use them you need to know they exist and how to use them and as we all know some Third party helpers are very complicated, which leaves some Commanders in the dark and not up with rest. Engineering is a case in point, without Third party helpers, you would be hard pressed to know what it is you're supposed to be doing.

I dont think theres really a justification under these terms.
The most prevalent and most useful have mainly been created by commanders frustrated by the lack provided support. These have become fundamental and available to all.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Don't think there's that type of 'Help' with Apps in the game and Frontier is very watchful of anything which gives more control to a player with an outside tool over others the Ship or environment

Having said that Sup3rfluiD quote below does sum up what is happening;

My concern is not that Players are using Third party helpers I'm using Third party helpers is that to use them you need to know they exist and how to use them and as we all know some Third party helpers are very complicated, which leaves some Commanders in the dark and not up with rest. Engineering is a case in point, without Third party helpers, you would be hard pressed to know what it is you're supposed to be doing.

Well there definatly is... Because people were discussing it's use on another post.

FDev don't care is more a reaistic answer. Personally I'll just sit patiently until they realise how rife it is, and hopefully pull the plug. Then we'll have the wheat separated from the chaff.

 

[sutex]

Well there definatly is... Because people were discussing it's use on another post.

FDev don't care is more a reaistic answer. Personally I'll just sit patiently until they realise how rife it is, and hopefully pull the plug. Then we'll have the wheat separated from the chaff.

Well I stand corrected... Yes balance and access to 'knowledge' is the issue, been out of whack for sometime. Frontier Tutorials and in-game cross platform tools which are superior or on par with what's available, used now, would help.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

NB: if available.

It's all good![yesnod]

As always GARD jumping in trying to gank me with knowledge - of course i'm down anytime [smile]

Speedcuffs with the sharp eye, I did lack mats for premium, however if I had started with standard not basic I think even that would have sufficed. moot point anyway due to the moral victory of a double log

almost better that way. almost

too much forum PvP for me over wkend i self griefed

Z0

EDIT re 3rd party stuff, debatable but beyond scope of what i was trying to get at in the OP

all this CMDR needed to know was "dismiss ship" and also the fact there are pilots (drivers, in this case) out there willing to try to shoot down a rando conda if it's in open for [no reason] / [reasons that might not be apparent to CMDR]

to me that's basic training stuff

 

[Nigel_Loring]

too much forum PvP for me over wkend i self griefed

Careful what you wish for, Feros


But really, I think you have started a very good thread.
And aside from the interesting technical discussions on how to defeat a conda with an SRV, your main point is very valid.

Lack of knowledge on how to properly defend yourself is a main cause for grief.
And it is hurting the game, the community and finally FDev.


I can tell from my own experience.
I had my eyes on the game for a long time but held off buying it after reading how "full of griefers" the community was. Eventually I got it during a Steam Sale for next to nothing. If I don't like it, I have not lost much money on it. I spent 20-50 h in Solo before going to Open.

When I was first shot down by a player, I felt totally gutted. There was no communication whatsoever. Pulled out from the blue and killed within seconds without any apparent reason or meaning. A totally pointless action, from my perspective. I amost gave up on the game at that point. My playing time is too short to waste it on dealing with annoying people.



Luckily I gave it another try. Several hours of undisturbed flying in Open. Then a proper roleplaying encounter with the Code. It was finally beginning to feel like we are actually playing a game here together. Then I discovered this forum and the posts in the PvP section and the guides on "griefer defence".

I have not practiced any of that yet and probably I am still a totally easy prey. But now I know that this is just my own fault and laziness. And with that, the feeling of beeing a totally helpless victim to griefers is gone from my game. I still play the fox, not the hunter - but I am enjoying that.


But the point is: I came sooo close to quitting and for sure many players actually do quit before they find the fourms.
There really should be something inside the game that teaches "griefer defence" or points to 3rd party knowledge for it.

 

[Bigmaec]

...
Luckily I gave it another try. Several hours of undisturbed flying in Open. Then a proper roleplaying encounter with the Code. It was finally beginning to feel like we are actually playing a game here together. Then I discovered this forum and the posts in the PvP section and the guides on "griefer defence".

I have not practiced any of that yet and probably I am still a totally easy prey. But now I know that this is just my own fault and laziness. And with that, the feeling of beeing a totally helpes victim to griefers is gone from my game. I still play the fox, not the hunter - but I am enjoying that.


But the point is: I came sooo close to quitting and for sure many players actually do quit before they find the fourms.
There really should be something inside the game that teaches "griefer defence" or points to 3rd party knowledge for it.

That's one of the biggest problems of the MMO aspect of the game imho (next to combat logging and seal clubbing in starter systems)
The game doesn't teach you the fundamental difference between PvE and PvP.
Players (me included) build an absolute murderboat bigthree, kill thousands of AI ships and then get totally and royally screwed by a FdL in open.
Or players win hundreds of NPC interdictions and lose the first against a skilled player and *bamm* get destroyed.
Or totally panic against CMDR experimental effects.

It's just such a big difference that players who don't play open regularly (or better, who don't PvP regularly) will be simply stunned by the stuff that happens.

 

[ethelred]

Panic is the key thing, plus CMDR interdictions being almost impossible to win*

You panic, you're dead - I'm firmly of the belief you can escape 9 times out of ten, but mess up at the beginning, be slow boosting the shields and you're looking at the rebuy screen.

It's not even panic - my first time, I got such an adrenaline rush I was shaking!

I always promote practice - as in doing a CG in an Adder or T6 so you can get over it and get your drill down, when the rebuy is still fairly small.









*YMMV

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

royally screwed by a FdL in open.
[...]
It's just such a big difference that players who don't play open regularly (or better, who don't PvP regularly) will be simply stunned by the stuff that happens.

Who needs an FdL. People are preoccupied with the "meta", but we can gank from anything, as evidenced by the SRV vs. Conda battle (DM if interested in the video).

I usually just fight the PvE Corvettes from my pirate chally and don't bother to take off the useless manifest and wake scanners. One I recall messaged "nice scramble" - by which he meant dispersal field, which I run on both a gimballed cannon and a fixed PA, because I know how badly it will "stun" the PvE CMDRs.

But really, I think you have started a very good thread.

Thank you. Really. It helps to have people "on the other side of the fence" notice and reply with thoughtfulness. Interesting and nice to hear you had a good experience with Code, I was briefly an applicant before I found my calling as a Zarek henchman. There are some good people and pilots there.

Lack of knowledge on how to properly defend yourself is a main cause for grief.
And it is hurting the game, the community and finally FDev.

I can tell from my own experience.
[...]
But the point is: I came sooo close to quitting and for sure many players actually do quit before they find the fourms.
There really should be something inside the game that teaches "griefer defence" or points to 3rd party knowledge for it.

I might quibble with you over the amount of quitting it causes, but only FDev has the numbers and no real reason to share them. I've bolded the statement that I feel sums it all up pretty neatly.

I have not practiced any of that yet and probably I am still a totally easy prey. But now I know that this is just my own fault and laziness. And with that, the feeling of beeing a totally helpes victim to griefers is gone from my game. I still play the fox, not the hunter - but I am enjoying that.

You have an extremely healthy attitude. I suspect you'll be a skilled white knight like Ziljan or Aash, a depraved ganker, or at least some sort of PvP pirate type in 6 months ;-) The first step is probably the most important in this arena

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Panic is the key thing, plus CMDR interdictions being almost impossible to win*

You panic, you're dead - I'm firmly of the belief you can escape 9 times out of ten, but mess up at the beginning, be slow boosting the shields and you're looking at the rebuy screen.

Yes on panic. That is why so many kills are so easy. It's not build (that makes it easier of course) but the deer in the headlights reaction.

CMDR interdiction minigame is a strange thing. I've lost (from the aggressive end) badly even when I lined up almost perfectly. There's some connection funkiness sometimes, and also I feel some hidden modifier for ship types that is not immediately apparent. It's an area I've looked for hard research on, and think is lacking.

 

[Bigmaec]

Panic is the key thing, plus CMDR interdictions being almost impossible to win*

You panic, you're dead - I'm firmly of the belief you can escape 9 times out of ten, but mess up at the beginning, be slow boosting the shields and you're looking at the rebuy screen.

It's not even panic - my first time, I got such an adrenaline rush I was shaking!

I always promote practice - as in doing a CG in an Adder or T6 so you can get over it and get your drill down, when the rebuy is still fairly small.

Yep, panic is definitely a thing. I remember the times I was shaking after an encounter, too. Nowadays I still get adrenaline, but way way less. And that results in way less errors. Training training training.

Who needs an FdL. People are preoccupied with the "meta", but we can gank from anything, as evidenced by the SRV vs. Conda battle (DM if interested in the video).

FdL is the bogeyman. Fly in open in a FdL and people drop out of supercruise like flies - even if you don't fit an interdictor

edit: I totally recommend the Hutton Orbital FdL song. Awesome. I always chuckle hearing it... "I like to kill in my Föör diie Länce" *sings*

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

I fear more such forced "tutorials" that are more annoying than helpfull than any missed knowledge.
Telling everything about how the game works via missions would be tedious and i am someone who does not like that. I wouldn't continue to play a game where the tutorials didn't end after 3 days of playing :| also, many things stay in memory only when i had to take consequences. Much better learning effect through that.

Beside this, there's still a manual telling about the most basics fresh cmdrs should know before lifting off into the void. Most cmdrs refuse to read it.
It remembers me, that i've experienced something similar a few days ago on amazon. People continued to ask, how they can program makro buttons for a keyboard. Dozens of them!!! Nobody of them has seen, that the keyboard came with a very small multi language manual where it is explained in 3 sentences

Learning by doing all the way! Fly safe o7

 

[tactical bacon]

[video=youtube_share;BFOTqi_VDEs]https://youtu.be/BFOTqi_VDEs[/video]

 

[Zoltah-Talion]

In the meantime, DG2 in PS4 galaxy is comically understaffed (1), and there are very few explorers on this platform left in open anyway (I cannot say I blame them).

I am on PS4. I always play in Open. I am a lone explorer about 2,000 Lyrs away from the bubble in the direction of Sag A. I am flying an unarmed Krait Phantom with everything stripped down for range. I have a nice 3D shield, low power enhanced. And it's so lonely out here, I dream of nice PvP men coming to teach me lessons about how to survive in this harsh universe. If they can make Shakespearean speeches while they're doing it, even better.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

I was not dissapointed tactical bacon.

10/10.xD

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Alos. I've sen Feros' video.

It's both very amusing and illustrates the issue very well.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

Even outfitting screen lacks stats like DPE or how bad is damage falloff range for some weapons, people who get killed in "pve builds" are actually killed in ships that are simply horrible builds, but can survive in pve cause of god mode vs npc in even lightly engineered big ship. Slight increase of game difficulty, adding some npc in engineered ships (proper build FDL, not those pulse laser abominations we see now) outside missions and CZ will level the playing field a lot.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Even outfitting screen lacks stats like DPE or how bad is damage falloff range for some weapons, people who get killed in "pve builds" are actually killed in ships that are simply horrible builds, but can survive in pve cause of god mode vs npc in even lightly engineered big ship. Slight increase of game difficulty, adding some npc in engineered ships (proper build FDL, not those pulse laser abominations we see now) outside missions and CZ will level the playing field a lot.

You know I think theres an element of truth to this in a way.

Why do you require different loadouts to kill NPCs anyways? (I know why before some smart alec pipes up)
They are the same ships. they should, as rank increases, obtain similar upgrades to that which players would have.

Then the whole myth of PVE or PvP builds get instantaneously put to bed. There will only be viable combat builds, and non viable combat builds.