My Main Concern with ED

[Clifford]

This is actually the biggest concern I have. In order for this game to thrive, it must deliver on the MMO aspect.

If you want people to play online, you can't do it by forcing them, or asking them to walk into a trap. Make the online All group a good place to meet friends and play, and people will want to join-in. (#1). You can encourage people to play online-ALL group by making it a good community to play with where people will chose to play in ALL group. Have player communities, have organized battles, have escort missions, etc.

But, If you allow it to be a cesspool of "shoot everything that moves" and "smash ships for LoLz!", with spawn-camping and dirty-language, then yeah people will leave.

This is what emerges when players have the option to chose All or Private or Solo: You have to interact with other players by mutual agreement; you can't force them to "eat dirt and like it" they'll leave.

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#1: It happened in Evochron Mercenary. because people in EM have the choice to play online or not, the online community is very welcoming. Punk players, bad attitudes, and spawn-campers are quickly eliminated. And yes there is still PvP, plenty of people want to duel.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

You understand how this can't happen in ED, right? Because there are no persistent system-wide "spaces"? And if you understand that, then what's the point of trying to bring that play style to a game that doesn't even remotely support it?

Whether it's the station, the group who frequents the station, or the player, money is being exchanged between individuals, individuals and NPC's or both. As long as the transfer of resources can be influenced there is no reason not to attempt to influence it, if the act of doing so interests you.

Persistence means exactly diddly. What matters is what is in front of me and the goal I have set for myself either for this session of play or the next several sessions of play. Mechanics such as instancing don't mean that some goals are unattainable, but that the scope of their achievement must be adjusted accordingly.

It's called creating your own content, and that is exactly why a developer builds a sandbox game. To allow the players to play within it, and build their own experience.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The only thing I can think of that may work in such a system is increased income for playing in the more dangerous open world. That's an easy enough thing to do with bounties and mining, but trading is a bit more problematic.

There has already been quite a lengthy thread about that very topic.

 

[Adept]

But, If you allow it to be a cesspool of "shoot everything that moves" and "smash ships for LoLz!", with spawn-camping and dirty-language, then yeah people will leave.

This is what emerges when players have the option to chose All or Private or Solo: You have to interact with other players by mutual agreement; you can't force them to "eat dirt and like it" they'll leave.

This is indeed it. QFT, and I'd rep if I could.

EVE players are used to the Libertarian hellhole where everybody has to take the good with the bad if they want to play at all. Many of them apparently can't imagine any other way.

If the plans of Frontier and David pan out, the Open group will be a nice and interesting place with occasional flares of violence. If the people used to the cuthroat EVE style think the only way to play sensibly is to trade in solo, it's just they who miss out.

Remember too that trading isn't supposed to end up as a faster way to make credits than bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination or exploration.

I feel many of our current problem children just can't imagine gamma / release being fundamentally different than Beta 1.0x

 

[Zarquon Beeblebrox]

Remember too that trading isn't supposed to end up as a faster way to make credits than bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination or exploration.

Here is the fundamental difference between a PVP interested player and those who argue against it.

When you say that line its in the context that bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination is something you do to AI bots. Thats called PVE... You don't have so specify mining cobalt and mining iron as two different play styles. Its both mining and its both PVE.

When you say something like "bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination" to a PVP interested person like my self. I can only see that in context where i bounty hunt player bounty's (PVP), I'm a mercenary hiring my self and my skills to a real person (PVP). I "assassinate" real people in game.

PVE is player versus environment. Environment describe everything and every profession in game that is not vs player.


edit::

isn't supposed to end up as a faster way to make credits than bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination or exploration.

Then I expect to be able to make the same amount of credits interacting with players in my chosen profession then PVE players.... did you mean that ?

 

[Mephane]

Then I expect to be able to make the same amount of credits interacting with players in my chosen profession then PVE players.... did you mean that ?

It meant that between trading and the various combat-oriented career choices, they should all be made roughly equally effective at generating money (as in credits per time spent). This is regardless of PvE/PvP considerations.

 

[Adept]

When you say something like "bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination" to a PVP interested person like my self. I can only see that in context where i bounty hunt player bounty's (PVP), I'm a mercenary hiring my self and my skills to a real person (PVP). I "assassinate" real people in game.

I'm afraid that's where your pre-conceptions trip you.

What I was saying is that the idea that people looking for the fastest path to powerful ships will be trading in solo mode until they have the ship they want, I think they are mistaken. Sure you can do that, but it sounds like you and others expect that people with no interest in trading will have to do that as a necessary grind before getting "to the good bits".

I play in Open all the time. (I will continue to do so unless it turns into such an unpleasant cesspit that my group of friends will prefer to swap to a private group and leave the problem cases behind a barrier.)

I trade, I bounty hunt both NPCs and PCs (though I don't go for newbies in sideys with low bounties, that's just not sporting), I do missions and investigate signals.

In the finished game, I'm not sure how much trading I will do. Unless it's made a whole lot more volatile and unpredictable, making money from missions and merc / bonty hunter work sounds more interesting. Exploration and mining too, actually.

None of that is exclusively PvE or PvP. That is the problem you have. You seem to have been conditioned to thinking that there is this complete separation in play styles, where PvE is playground stuff, and PvP is for real men (tm). Problem with that is, that in Elite if you want to be a merc, a pirate or a bounty hunter you have to take all comers. PvP will be a part of it, but trying to focus on it exclusively is bound to fail.

If the actual in universe professions and progress in Elite are of no interest to you, and you just want to death-match and dominate other pilots, I'm afraid this game may turn out very frustrating for you. It's being designed to train you out of that mindset, and eventually push you to separate matchmaking if you insist on attacking every human you meet without any in-game justification... or being the sort of pirate that blows ships up, instead of robbing them for profit.

I dunno... it kind of feels like you can't have what you want without the vast majority of backers and Braben himself losing what they want from the game.

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

You understand how this can't happen in ED, right? Because there are no persistent system-wide "spaces"? And if you understand that, then what's the point of trying to bring that play style to a game that doesn't even remotely support it?...

No, based on the content of his posts in this thread it would be reasonable to deduce that he still does not understand that, and still has an Eve mindset of thinking he will be able to control areas of space or own trade routes, or otherwise exert some sort of significant dominance in ED. Or he is just desperately hoping the design of ED will change to accommodate that at release. It won't. Period. It's all in the DDA.

 

[Zarquon Beeblebrox]

None of that is exclusively PvE or PvP. That is the problem you have. You seem to have been conditioned to thinking that there is this complete separation in play styles, where PvE is playground stuff, and PvP is for real men (tm). Problem with that is, that in Elite if you want to be a merc, a pirate or a bounty hunter you have to take all comers. PvP will be a part of it, but trying to focus on it exclusively is bound to fail.

There is no misconception, when i talk about separation I'm talking about my view of it. And for _me_ there are no such thing as a bounty hunter vs bots. or a assassination vs bots, or merc vs bots., as long as the context is MMO with PVP flag set ON.

And I ame aware that in your view and many with you, that this is quite wrong of me.

If the game was a off line game, that was considered a single player game, or PVP flag was set off. THEN. I can role-play a merc or an assassin or a pirate vs bots. But in my world, only then.

I think im not alone PVP player thinking this. And certainly not alone planning a pirate profession thinking this. But i could be wrong..

If the actual in universe professions and progress in Elite are of no interest to you, and you just want to death-match and dominate other pilots, I'm afraid this game may turn out very frustrating for you. It's being designed to train you out of that mindset, and eventually push you to separate matchmaking if you insist on attacking every human you meet without any in-game justification... or being the sort of pirate that blows ships up, instead of robbing them for profit.

The professions from MY perspective in this MMO PVP flag set ON game, is definitively of interest to me. But from my perspective it would only be such a profession if they follow my perception on how it should be. If it don't, I don't consider this a MMO PVP flag set on game and the game introduction is deceptive.. (my view)

I dunno... it kind of feels like you can't have what you want without the vast majority of backers and Braben himself losing what they want from the game.

Thats normal in a world where people have different views. If Braben is meaning what you consider him to mean, when he describe his game. I think he is wrong in describing the game the way he do. It would not be a MMO with PVP flag set on. It would be a space counter-strike with a single player match buildup (in my humble view)

 

[Adept]

It would not be a MMO with PVP flag set on. It would be a space counter-strike with a single player match buildup (in my humble view)

No, that is exactly what it is. It is massive, it is multiplayer, and there is PvP.

The emphasis is different from what you would prefer it to be, but it doesn't make th desciption untrue. Playing as a pirate and ignoring the NPCs is a very silly approach in elite. The powers that run the universe and populate it _are_ the NPCs. Elite is a world simulation, not a guild war battleground.

Most of us think that is great, but I realise some will have expected different things. One day I will command a Frigate or a Destroyer in Elite, and I suspect I will have a ton of fun with my friends. The idea that it would be used in warfare and area domination against other players doesn't hold any interest to me.

 

[Joe Spivey]

There is no misconception, when i talk about separation I'm talking about my view of it. And for _me_ there are no such thing as a bounty hunter vs bots. or a assassination vs bots, or merc vs bots., as long as the context is MMO with PVP flag set ON.

And I ame aware that in your view and many with you, that this is quite wrong of me.

If the game was a off line game, that was considered a single player game, or PVP flag was set off. THEN. I can role-play a merc or an assassin or a pirate vs bots. But in my world, only then.

I think im not alone PVP player thinking this. And certainly not alone planning a pirate profession thinking this. But i could be wrong..

The professions from MY perspective in this MMO PVP flag set ON game, is definitively of interest to me. But from my perspective it would only be such a profession if they follow my perception on how it should be. If it don't, I don't consider this a MMO PVP flag set on game and the game introduction is deceptive.. (my view)

Thats normal in a world where people have different views. If Braben is meaning what you consider him to mean, when he describe his game. I think he is wrong in describing the game the way he do. It would not be a MMO with PVP flag set on. It would be a space counter-strike with a single player match buildup (in my humble view)

What I take from this post of yours is that you think just because there is PvP in the game then PvP is the focus. This is untrue and if you read this in the blurb then you were reading it with Eve coloured spectacles i'm afraid. Please, take off the spectacles and see Elite Dangerous for what it is. A different gaming experience from what you expected and are used to, but a valid experience with depth and content and a vast playground.

 

[Adept]

Well said Joe.

 

[OVMorat]

What I take from this post of yours is that you think just because there is PvP in the game then PvP is the focus. This is untrue and if you read this in the blurb then you were reading it with Eve coloured spectacles i'm afraid. Please, take off the spectacles and see Elite Dangerous for what it is. A different gaming experience from what you expected and are used to, but a valid experience with depth and content and a vast playground.

Whereas you are convinced the ED is something else. Who is right? Well - no one. ED will be what players make of it. The challenge for the developers is to create a game which can keep lots of different players happy without cramping any particular play style. There _should_ be enough space for everyone.

 

[Adept]

Whereas you are convinced the ED is something else. Who is right? Well - no one. ED will be what players make of it. The challenge for the developers is to create a game which can keep lots of different players happy without cramping any particular play style. There _should_ be enough space for everyone.

Actually, that is not the challenge. That is one approach, the one taken by Chris Roberst.

David has repeatedly said that they are making the game for themselves. That means the design challenge is to put in rewards and sanctions that result in the sort of gameplay they want to see.

 

[Joe Spivey]

Whereas you are convinced the ED is something else. Who is right? Well - no one. ED will be what players make of it. The challenge for the developers is to create a game which can keep lots of different players happy without cramping any particular play style. There _should_ be enough space for everyone.

It is not a matter of me being convinced that ED is something different. It is David Braben. It is his game. His vision. he is not making the game to please the players. He is not making the game to please a publisher. He is making the game to please himself and his supporters and we are invited to play his game the way he conceived it.

 

[Adept]

It is not a matter of me being convinced that ED is something different. It is David Braben. It is his game. His vision. he is not making the game to please the players. He is not making the game to please a publisher. He is making the game to please himself and his supporters and we are invited to play his game the way he conceived it.

And that is precisely the reason Elite has so much character and spirit, and if they pull it off completely like they've planned, I feel it will change not only space games but MMOs... and good thing too. The genre is in a horrible rut. It's like the Hollywood movies, just repeating the same tired clichés over and over.

 

[King Hrothgar]

The real question at the heart of all this is what is your average player going to do when I and 3-4 friends shoot down or ransom haulers, miners, and ratters (pve bounty collecting) all day. You say that won't be allowed, half the DDA's say otherwise as do most interviews that mention pvp. We are getting the tools to do precisely this type of thing. We might have huge bounties on us, police chasing us everywhere and it might not be very profitable (sidewinder for life ) but it will be possible.

Players like me are here and will arrive in far greater numbers once proper tools for this type of play are added. What will be the result? If there is no compelling reason to play online for any reason other than killing player ships, then this game instantly becomes primarily a single player game. In effect, it's Skyrim in space.

Now I like Skyrim and Skyrim in space does actually sound pretty cool. But that isn't what this game is marketed as. It's advertised as an MMO. My concern isn't eve style territory control, it isn't even player piracy. What happens when a sizable chunk of the community plays as I just described? Will people continue to play in all mode or fracture off into solo/private groups leaving all mode as little more than a pvp arena around preset war zones?

If the latter happens, why have it as an MMO at all? Why not advertise it as a SP game and then focus the MP aspect around little arena's (much like CoD)? Many here keep wishing away these concerns saying "it doesn't work that way" and yet it does and will continue to do so judging by official statements. Wishful thinking won't make these types of issues go away.

If the MMO aspect is to be kept viable, then there must be a way to encourage players to play in the intrinsically more dangerous open universe instead of hopping off onto solo mode or private groups. There are a variety of methods for doing this. I think a compromise method could be developed that would be acceptable to most players.

 

[Hootmon]

Remember too that trading isn't supposed to end up as a faster way to make credits than bounty hunting, mercenary work, assassination or exploration.

Worth repeating...

 

[OVMorat]

Actually, that is not the challenge. That is one approach, the one taken by Chris Roberst.

David has repeatedly said that they are making the game for themselves. That means the design challenge is to put in rewards and sanctions that result in the sort of gameplay they want to see.

Wow, OK - in that case he's more ambitious than I thought!

 

[OVMorat]

And that is precisely the reason Elite has so much character and spirit, and if they pull it off completely like they've planned, I feel it will change not only space games but MMOs... and good thing too. The genre is in a horrible rut. It's like the Hollywood movies, just repeating the same tired clichés over and over.

How many Space MMOs have there been this century? This is a genuine question because I may have missed a few that I'd like to catch up with.