Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Post them - there are enough critics here to tell you EXACTLY (and frequently) what you have done wrong 
Exploration Question
- Thread starter Studders86
- Start date
Which is enough to find players, I promise you. Something I used to do in Eve was hunt solo players or specific players, and the map in Eve is updated randomly. If you're looking for a solo player you'll often be getting information that is close to an hour old, and you've got to assess their possible routes and their previous patterns to try and guess where they are going to be an hour in the future before you start moving on them.
It's hard, and it's nowhere near a 100% success rate process, but it is so much more satisfying when you catch them that it is entirely worth it.
Even if the map data is a day or two old it'll be possible to track players and even easier to track individuals, because there will be less noise in the signal. Players can't be logged in 24 hours a day constantly moving forward, so there will always be opportunities for hunters to catch up.
Moreover, you've got to consider that the hunter's goal may not be to attack you. If you open up an easy route to a tight cluster of systems but have to log off for the day before you can explore those systems, anyone watching your progress on the map can jump in and poach what was about to be an easy day's earnings before you log in again. That is also PvP activity, by the way. Denying your opponent resources and income is a vital part of player competition.
Yeah, that too. If someone wants to spend a few hours every night PvP'ing, the outer fringe is probably the last place they'll want to be. Hanging out in a distant star system for three hours and hoping someone comes by? Doesn't sound like fun to me, if there's more PvP action in the central systems.
Add to that, the fact that it's not a physical space anyway, just your own Island instance. Another player could actually be passing through that system and you'll never see it, if the P2P matchmaking network doesn't like the lag numbers.
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@ Ian
Are you kidding!
You know there are some serious vultures around and I don't want them picking over my mathematical carcass
Are you kidding!
You know there are some serious vultures around and I don't want them picking over my mathematical carcass
I could be wrong, but I don't think it will work that way. There is no hyperdrive link that shows up on your Galaxy map until after an explorer discovers it, surveys the system, and turns in the data. You literally can't go where he is. Hyperlinks have to be discovered (pointing at stars, or some such).
Once you can see the hyperdive link on the map, the explorer is already gone. Your chance to steal the data is on his way back to civilization, not when he's out exploring on the most distant edge.
Edit: Ninja'd by Ian.
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Static routes, static universe. The EVE paradigm again. You may be able to hunt that player, but not if your Island instances don't happen to coincide due to P2P matchmaking.
Edited to add: And you won't even know that player is out there anyway until after he's returned to civilization and turned in the data, because you won't be able to see the hyperdrive link exists until then. I think that's the main point you're missing here. The only PvP that can happen between explorers while they're exploring, is if they happen to have both discovered the same hyperdrive route, and stumble across each other in that unexplored system.
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https://zkillboard.com/ship/650/kills/
And here we have a great example of how players in a game where PvP is possible will kill each other with literally anything that can cause damage.
The Nereus is a ship designed for and almost exclusively capable of hauling large amounts of resources around, but Eve players still use it to destroy each other to great effect. And it feels great.
The thrill is kind of like watching a toothless palsy granny in a wheelchair putting the smack on a mixed MMA champ when you see or fly one of these things while it's taking down a combat oriented ship. It's amazing.
Oh, and this happens in a game that can notoriously be played with 1 finger. Imagine what factors come into play when "skill" is actually taken into account.
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
@Windscreen Smudge
Actually I have zero knowledge of EVE gameplay, nor am I particularly interested.
What does interest me is how you think to you are going to be able to follow someone, when you have - at most - a vague idea of where they might have been n days ago, and a fighter ship that has limited range when compared to a fuly kitted out exploreer vessel?
Just how far does a viper jump at the moment? How far does a type 6 jump? Do you really think you will be able to catch up?
Actually I have zero knowledge of EVE gameplay, nor am I particularly interested.
What does interest me is how you think to you are going to be able to follow someone, when you have - at most - a vague idea of where they might have been n days ago, and a fighter ship that has limited range when compared to a fuly kitted out exploreer vessel?
Just how far does a viper jump at the moment? How far does a type 6 jump? Do you really think you will be able to catch up?
The less people there are in the area in open play, the more likely you are to be put in the same instance as your target, because there are less instances to choose from.
And note that I said that you've got to be able to predict their future behavior based upon their previous behavior. Eve online has wormholes. These are random travel connections that appear and random intervals, leading to other random systems which also have random connections leading to yet more random places which can eventually spit you out on the opposite side of the map after traveling through one connection or 3 systems away after traveling through 20.
And you can still track people down efficiently, even though the "static" map has a huge number of 100% random elements, and be waiting to ambush them before they ever arrive at their destination, because the people interacting with those elements act predictably.
Edit: And please folks, don't think this is all some great escapade of braggadocio on my part. That crap was a lot of work and I intend for Elite: Dangerous to be a pleasant vacation. You will never see me hunting you down in the game.
My point is that it's not only possible, but highly probable, and if you aren't taking that into consideration you may find yourself quite frustrated one day.
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Why should this be disabled? I'm sure there will be quite a few "Private Group" expeditions. Eventually there is going to be 400 Billion systems. Im sure everyone playing the beta right now will be able to claim one.. or 10 lol.
I eventually plan on getting lost on the other side of the galaxy. Even in open play I seriously doubt I will see many players there.
I still don't think you've quite grasped the mechanics of how exploring will work in the game. Say I'm in system A. There is only one hyperdrive link to this system on the Galaxy map, which is how I got here. Now as an explorer, I want to go further; discover and survey a system nobody has been to yet. I don't know what the exact mechanics are, but they've been hinted at. I'll have to study the starfield, pick some likely targets, eventually (and it won't be easy) discover a new jump link out of System A.
You can attack me in that system, easy, while I'm busy studying the starfield and trying to find a new route. But once I've discovered the previously-unknown link to the next system, I'm outta there. You'll never know where I went, unless you spend the same time I did trying to discover that jump link. It won't be on your map. Not until I return, make it back to a faction station and turn in the data. Then it magically appears on your Galaxy map, and I'm long gone.
To repeat: As far as I can tell, the only way PvP will happen between explorers while they're out exploring -- i.e. actively surveying a system, which takes time -- is if you happen to discover that same unknown link and jump there. You can't follow otherwise.
I suppose you could sit in the system I jumped from and wait for me to come back, but hey... guess what? I might go on discovering new systems before I decide to return, which could easily be by another route. Good luck finding me with all of your EVE-honed mad skillz.
I still don't think you've quite grasped the mechanics of how exploring will work in the game. Say I'm in system A. There is only one hyperdrive link to this system on the Galaxy map, which is how I got here. Now as an explorer, I want to go further; discover and survey a system nobody has been to yet. I don't know what the exact mechanics are, but they've been hinted at. I'll have to study the starfield, pick some likely targets, eventually (and it won't be easy) discover a new jump link out of System A.
You can attack me in that system, easy, while I'm busy studying the starfield and trying to find a new route. But once I've discovered the previously-unknown link to the next system, I'm outta there. You'll never know where I went, unless you spend the same time I did trying to discover that jump link. It won't be on your map. Not until I return, make it back to a faction station and turn in the data. Then it magically appears on your Galaxy map, and I'm long gone.
To repeat: As far as I can tell, the only way PvP will happen between explorers while they're out exploring -- i.e. actively surveying a system, which takes time -- is if you happen to discover that same unknown link and jump there. You can't follow otherwise.
I suppose you could sit in the system I jumped from and wait for me to come back, but hey... guess what? I might go on discovering new systems before I decide to return, which could easily be by another route. Good luck finding me with all of your EVE-honed mad skillz.
That all sounds very exciting! I can't wait
I still don't think you've quite grasped the mechanics of how exploring will work in the game. Say I'm in system A. There is only one hyperdrive link to this system on the Galaxy map, which is how I got here. Now as an explorer, I want to go further; discover and survey a system nobody has been to yet. I don't know what the exact mechanics are, but they've been hinted at. I'll have to study the starfield, pick some likely targets, eventually (and it won't be easy) discover a new jump link out of System A.
You can attack me in that system, easy, while I'm busy studying the starfield and trying to find a new route. But once I've discovered the previously-unknown link to the next system, I'm outta there. You'll never know where I went, unless you spend the same time I did trying to discover that jump link. It won't be on your map. Not until I return, make it back to a faction station and turn in the data. Then it magically appears on your Galaxy map, and I'm long gone.
To repeat: As far as I can tell, the only way PvP will happen between explorers while they're out exploring -- i.e. actively surveying a system, which takes time -- is if you happen to discover that same unknown link and jump there. You can't follow otherwise.
I suppose you could sit in the system I jumped from and wait for me to come back, but hey... guess what? I might go on discovering new systems before I decide to return, which could easily be by another route. Good luck finding me with all of your EVE-honed mad skillz.
And you are still narrowed down by the laws of probability.
Will you be jumping all the way across the known galaxy in 30 seconds like targets in Eve could? Likely not, you probably won't be going any further than the jump range of your ship allows in any one leap.
If you are exploring as you go and returning with the data as evidenced by watching the breadcrumbs you leave on the map over a period of time you will probably continue to make the same consistent amount of progress you have told me you are making over the past several days.
If you have been skirting the outside edges of other peoples areas that they are exploring you will probably continue to do the same if the map shows evidence of allowing you to physically do so by jump range.
If you have been staying as far away from other explorers as possible and carving your own path into deep space, you will probably continue to do so as long as the map allows you to.
If you have been taking the longest jumps possible and pushing out as far as you can, you will probably continue to do so.
If you have been pushing towards clusters so that once you arrive at the cluster you have a large selection of easily explored areas to gobble up, you will probably continue to do so.
Ad infinitum, including the dozens of small intricacies that will apply exclusively to tracking in Elite: dangerous due to it's interface, the exploration system, and the way the mechanics encourage players to behave.
If a hunter adds up enough probabilities, they have a pattern. If they have a pattern, they can follow it to find their prey. It doesn't have to work the first time, the second time, or even the fifth time. Failure is encouragement to a good hunter and learning about the prey is it's own reward, and each failure comes with a lesson if the hunter is willing to learn it.
I, however, will probably be poking about doing something else that interests me in Elite, because tracking you or any other explorer down does not interest me. Hunting lambs was not interesting in Eve, and it will not be interesting in Elite.
I think I got one thing wrong in that last post. After I turn in the data for a newly discovered system, I don't think it magically appears on everyone else's Galaxy map. You'll have to buy the maps, I think, to know what's out there. Not sure how that process will work, and it's somehow going to be linked to the factions who don't want to share information with each other.
Lambs eh?
So basically a long explanation about how the great and crafty hunter will be able to hunt down their explorer prey. Second guessing FDs final intentions on this.
And then the get out clause that will permit you to never to have to demonstrate your skillz.
Failure is encouragement to a good hunter. Yes, 100%. I have actual experience of that so I can agree, but I suspect there will be very, very few individuals patient enough for that, even if the mechanics fit your assumptions.
I genuinely hope there is a gauntlet to be run (pretty boring otherwise), but I suspect that will be an NPC human or if we are really lucky an NPC alien encounter.
The clause was only necessary because of unnecessary assumptions that I was describing my intent. If you're really that disappointed though I can accommodate.
I'm not second guessing FD's intentions any more than the next person who assumes they're going to have 100% anonymity in how the mechanics in exploration work. Just as I've explained that no one should assume that all PvP, including system poaching, is impossible until they see it's impossible people should take note that it's not wise to assume that complete anonymity during exploration is possible, until it is proven possible.
I've never seen a group of people so easy to rile up over nothing, and it all boils down to absolutes. Somehow the belief of absolutes has permeated everything about Elite: Dangerous and people have taken faith in the idea that these absolutes, which they have yet to even observe, will never change or be proven false. It's just a habit of mine to attack absolutes, because I see people's unfailing belief in them as an unhealthy aberration.
It's eerily like a religion around here.
Its all very interesting and i would love to reply to some of your posts but there is too little known about this element of the game. Im hoping there is some way of tracking down ships rather than just guess work so it encourages players to find each other.
I would love to be mapping out a system and run into another explorer, not just for pvp purposes but it would be cool if they could share their data somehow and split the reward.
Some really interesting ideas but again, too little is known to speculate to the degree some people have. I just hope it encourages all types of player and the career path they have chosen.
On another note, its going to be interesting to watch a system develop to the point it has a space station. When traffic starts building and materials need shipping to that system in order for the station to be built. This then encourages traders to make their way there, provides pirates with lucrative opportunities to target these traders, which has the knock on of traders hiring escorts and other players to protect their shipments. Bounties will then be created based on the events that transpire between them. Basically exploring these systems is the first step. Theres so much choice for the player its going to be immense.
The exciting part is that i have no idea which of these career paths i would like to take, they all sound awesome!
I would love to be mapping out a system and run into another explorer, not just for pvp purposes but it would be cool if they could share their data somehow and split the reward.
Some really interesting ideas but again, too little is known to speculate to the degree some people have. I just hope it encourages all types of player and the career path they have chosen.
On another note, its going to be interesting to watch a system develop to the point it has a space station. When traffic starts building and materials need shipping to that system in order for the station to be built. This then encourages traders to make their way there, provides pirates with lucrative opportunities to target these traders, which has the knock on of traders hiring escorts and other players to protect their shipments. Bounties will then be created based on the events that transpire between them. Basically exploring these systems is the first step. Theres so much choice for the player its going to be immense.
The exciting part is that i have no idea which of these career paths i would like to take, they all sound awesome!
And there you have it. I can't wait to see what is going to do it for me.
If I was not on my stupid tablet I would +rep this.
Oh, a rough calculation on frontier system density, on an admittedly entirely guessed start game size sphere and average density, gave me a number of frontier systems on the perimiter skin of around 140000 systems. Going to have a look at the system map to try see whether that is even vaguely correct, but I think its conservative based on what I have seen so far.
Police/hunt that
brilliantThis is how I see it, combat between explorers will be very rare and purely opportunistic. Let's say I'm scanning planets in a newly discovered system and you are too. We just happen to be in the same newly discovered system by blind luck. I see you scanning and decide that I'm up for a quick kill and go for it.
That's not a scenario I see coming up very often in game. It will happen from time to time of course, but it will be exceptionally rare.
The real threat to an explorer is the unknown itself and the return trip through commonly known space. If you must sell your data to an established faction, you might find yourself traveling through a war zone or a pirate infested border system along the way. That's where issues with other players may arise.
The gauntlet, yes, and also issues with NPC pirates depending on player skill level. I think it's brilliant that the game won't just give you an "I Win" after surveying a system, you have to get the data back to civilization.
One thing the newsletter wasn't clear on, was exactly how a pirate might steal your data. Will that be some new interaction, or just something like a special cargo canister you might jettison (or negotiate for)?
Another unknown is how a pirate would even know you were carrying special data, instead of a normal trade run. Cargo scan, I guess? Might be an incentive there not to just fire first, especially if the data is fragile and goes up with the ship.