Pushing the bounderies: Elite/StarCitizen

[CaptainKremmen]

Having downloaded SC during their brief "free play" offer the other week, I'm now qualified to make a few, very basic comments about SC and ED.

Not much, mind you... I've put a heap of hours of flying into ED, and only a smidge in SC. Consequently, I'm not going to rehash or cover any graphics or gameplay comparisons whatsoever.


I'm just going to mention one gameplay moment in ED that serves to describe my gaming experience. Here goes...


The other day, I flew past Aulin Enterprise station. You know, the one with the massive habitat ring. As of Standard Beta 1.00, FD fleshed it out with some decent detail in the ring itself - buildings, trees, parks, etc. They also improved the lighting in that area of space, with some lovely moody presentation.

It's an awe-inspiring sight. Breathtaking.

However, I realised afterwards... I'd just flown right on by. I'd done the "wow!" thing before. Hovered over the spinning primary habitat ring. Seen the sun rise from behind the planet, lighting that huge station up in stark relief against the blackness of space.

Was it still beautiful? Sure.

But... pretty stuff doesn't provide content. It's lovely to see, particularly when it's brand new to you.


I flew right on by because I had something to do, somewhere to be, and because I'd seen that Aulin awesomeness before.


For me, if Aulin Enterprise still looked "a little more basic" (as per Premium Beta version), my game that night would have been exactly the same. It didn't need to be that pretty in order for me to enjoy the game. It made no difference to me at all, in gameplay terms.


Lovely to have, those beautiful views. Keep making it pretty, Frontier. I love pretty stuff.

But non-essential. Keep prioritising gameplay, Frontier. I love gameplay more.

 

[CMDR DeadPorkins]

I guess what I was ultimately curious about was just how much potential does FD's Cobra engine have, how much are they showing us, and how much are they keeping under wraps? None of us really know for sure, but it's a question worth posing. Only purpose being that maybe if enough people raise their concerns on any given topic, perhaps devs will take things into consideration and aspects of the game will evolve.

I do believe that FD are doing an incredible job at bringing us David Braben's vision. Still, if everyone just pats them on the back 24/7 throughout development and doesn't give constructive criticism, nothing will evolve.

When Braben says that he is making a game "for us", I don't believe he means he's making it only for himself and his team to enjoy. I would rather believe that he is including fans of the series, fans of pc gaming, and fans of the fictional lore surrounding it.

Everything remains to be seen. But everybody here knows one thing: It's crunch time!

 

[psykokow]

[Mod Hat Off]
Maybe because I am part of the DDF, maybe because I have put hours and hours and many pounds into this project I am completely unable to remain unbiased. But I love it, I feel that I have had input, I feel I have had to accept I am not getting some things I wanted, I am also having to learn to do things in game I didn't think I'd enjoy..

I am confident the game being made is for all of us, and if we highlight bits that don't work, in a concise and respectful way through the correct channel, they would be remiss to ignore it.

They want it to be EPIC and it is on course.. but as I say.. I can no longer consider myself unbiased...

[mod hat back on]

 

[Vasious]

What's up with the sloppy paint on that Eagle?

If my car came back from the paint shop with an orange peel texture like that, it'd be a free paint job.

David better send that thing back and tell them to strip it and start over.

Didn't that texture of paint used to be an in thing at some point.
Textured Matte paint

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Didn't that texture of paint used to be an in thing at some point.
Textured Matte paint

Interior house paint yes, and other things like outdoor furniture and such. It's never been an in-thing for vehicles to my understanding.

 

[Hellhawk666]

I really like EDs visual aesthetic. I'm not at all bothered if it does not look as hyper-real as SC, in fact to me it actually looks better. SC has an odd cartoonish/arcady edge to its visuals which is not a bad thing in itself, but I just prefer EDs style.

It's kind of like the difference in look between different media - to me ED looks like film, SC looks like digital recording. I've spent a great deal of time testing ED, but I've also backed SC and I've played around with the dogfighting modules we currently have. To be honest I think ED is currently streets ahead of SC in every department. SC will probably gain ground as it matures and more content is pushed out, but franky by that time I expect ED to have evolved even further ahead.

I don't think the graphical style is really the big issue for ED - the critical factor will be the sophistication of the mechanisms that provide the framework for emergent gameplay. Keeping players passionate and engaged in the long term with a wealth of self-directed activity whilst maintaining the game as an open sandbox experience is its challenge.

 

[EAGLE 5]

Strictly speaking graphics SC looks like those ultra clean digital graphics that attempt to recreate real life but ultimately look too pretty to be real. ED has that cinematic grittiness which ultimately looks more realistic. Think of it as the age old debate between digital media (like CD) and analog media (like vinyl).

 

[danjo]

i backed both, and SC has better visuals.. but is now uninstalled for being just TRIPE!!!! Myself and a few others who also bought SC are regretting it everyday, and laughing at those who keep spending money on it- i got out of it cheap, as I dont get sucked into "used car salesman techniques" the salepeople (err devs) at SC use.

elite - worth every cent.

 

[TimYersidies]

I backed and followed both since kick starter played SC first due to my sub level with ED. I can remember the first time i logged onto arena commander (after taking 15 mins to work out I needed to put the stupid helmet on AND walk into and sit down at the ship). The flight model felt like I was a puppeteer trying to control a blind drunk around space, the feeling of disappointment was palpable.

You see SC is hell bent on "photo realism" over fun it looks good but it plays so so badly (in my opinion). The money is being spent on poly counts, working toilets and an FPS.

ED on the other hand has been squarely focused on a space game and boy does it show when you play it. Given that both of them started from the same point (SC even had a working demo at KS and was considered to have a head start at that time) it is a testament to Foundations team how far ahead they have gotten in terms of a delivery.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate SC, I just have little hope left they can generate a fun game from the millions they have received. A technological show case certainly but not something compelling to play.

 

[cmdr awesome]

To use DB's house building analogy, SC have been picking out accessories and knick knacks for the mantelpiece before the foundations are ready.

ED has good gameplay now so I'm in and playing.
SC won't be ready for a couple of years and isn't really ready to compare with anything yet. It may be better than elite when it eventually gets released, but it is far too early to call it one way or the other.

 

[Armand]

I backed and played both games.

SC looks and feels like an endless commercial. It seems to be designed solely to sell ships. Lots of commercials, lots of sleek and flashy stuff, but actually very little to do.

The graphics in SC are great but as others have mentioned they are carefully designed tiny stages. You'll never have total freedom there.

The ships are incredibly detailed, which is the only selling point currently. You're buying a digital toy.

I do NOT like SC's cockpit and HUD. I actually much prefer E : D gold/blue aesthetic.

About the only gameplay thing I like better in SC is the fact that's actually playable with a mouse.

To be perfectly honest I kinda regret backing SC. I may play 'Squadron 42' if/when it comes out, but overall I feel tricked, not based on the current game, but on the feeling they are simply not interested in delivering a real game but just attract more money.

 

[GraXXoR]

A bit long, sorry...

I have backed and play both games. Elite more; time wise over 400 hrs so far and SC about 100 or so.

Elite is by far the more complete of the two, but then it has been in active development longer and has a more "traditional" feel of a pseudo random procedurally generated space sim which by definition lends itself to efficient creation of the gamespace.

Star Citizen, on the other hand, is the more outrageously ambitious of the two, encompassing a cenematic game in the form of Squadron 42 as the springboard into the sandbox - The part which will be compared with Elite.

The issue people have is whether they can pull off this unlikely game or not considering that SC is currently just a pew-pew battleground.

SC uses a modular design approach with different facets of the game being developed independently. Moreover, they are taking a far more curated aproach, which in the end, may or may not be successful, due to the sheer necessity of hand crafting such detailed assets.

Anyway...

Although SC is still limited in what can be done, i.e. just dog figting, racing and pootling around the track, the progress they have made since April is very satisfying. It's a bit like ED was back when there were "zones." i.e. not very gripping. Play a few hours of killing wave after wave of Bad-Guys and rocket around the track a few times and you're pretty much done, although the multiplayer modes, when you can find a server that is, are more compelling.

Once they get some persistence in there and trading, things will be much more interesting, much more like the ED B1 is now. Until then, I am enjoying the gradual refinement of SC in small doses and enjoy the in depth behind the scenes development information.

In the meantime, Elite has gone from strength to strength and has progressed smoothely from Alpha to Premium Beta to Beta 1 and gained a proto economy and 55 semi persistent systems and many placeholder assets which can and will be updated seamlessly as the beta progresses.

There have been an unfathomably small number of serious bugs, too: Less bugs than in ANY Beta I have ever participated. ANY!

Frontier has done a sterling job and Elite is a marvel of modern games development which should be showcased thus: HOW DEVELOPEMENT SHOULD BE DONE (TM).

It is clear that both games are pushing (very different) boundaries. ED in its unmatched galatic scale and SC in its almost ridiculous insistance on details.

As it is, I know that between SC and ED, I am going to have the most gaming fun I have had since Descent was released when I was just a wee graduate student. Either of these game would satisfy me, but TWO of them... Oh to live in interesting times!

It is their intrinsic philosophical differences in their approaches more than anything else that make them both so individually compelling for me:

SC is an obsessive-compulsive's wet dream while ED is a closeted introvert's ultimate escape...

Long Live Star Citizen. Long Live Elite Dangerous.

 

[cpbtrading]

I have supported/backed a few;
SC/Star Citizen
ED/Elite Dangerous
LT/Limit Theory
SE/Space Engineers
& will back ‘NMS/No Mans Sky’, given the chance.

SC looks the best graphically, no comparison really (when all the games are played on the highest settings), its also going to have limited mod making capability, which is o.k..
ED gives reliable, familiar game-play, with good graphics, but has very limited mod capability, not good.
Limit Theory will, I think, be great when its released, also will have more mod making ability, good.
Space Engineers is simply the best (true) sandbox available for this genre at present, imo. It has mod making (huge amount of mods available already) and the game is huge in size now. Although its quirky graphics, but I don’t mind, as long as the game-play is good.
NMS is going straight to console, but I’ll play the pc version when released soon after (hopefully).
ED will do the same next year and go to console, I firmly believe that.
SE is also confirmed as going to console, which is a shame really.

The only really true PC games out of all of those will be SC & LT, I think. That’s a real shame, as you can only push a game so far when your eye’s are set on console release.

For me SE is the better game of all released so far, but that’s just because I like a true sandbox game. Where anything is possible, well almost.

I will play all, just that I will play one more than the rest. Not sure what that will be yet. At the moment its SE, hands down the better game-play (for a true sandbox game-play player).

However none of these are finished, they’re all in early access/alpha/beta etc. that's if they're available at all yet.. So can’t judge much at all at this stage.

I’m playing the hell out of SE at the moment and if MP catches on, it will probably be the game I play the most, even though it will be pc/console, which I don’t usually play anything console related, simply because it restricts the possibilities. I always stick to PC only games, or have done for many years now.
But as said, I will play all of the ones mentioned on PC, even those that will/are going to console.

But there will be plenty of others coming along in this genre, no doubt, so we will have lots of choice.

Its all personal preference really.

 

[Weathers]

I fired up SC yesterday after not playing it for ages and the main thing that stood out to me was how much more impressive the planets are over ED. ED's planets looks really dull in comparison.
The planet on Broken Moon, I'm sure, has improved since the last time I saw it and I've little doubt they will keep on improving it/them.
Was also more impressed with the SFX, they're getting a bit closer to ED's standard now.

The main Criticism I have of SC is that the detail of the ships, whilst incredible, doesn't seem anywhere close to being economical. The damage model is one thing but the number of polys seems like overkill to me. I would have thought they could have added such high LOD0 models in after initial release for people to stare at when grounded. They'd probably have double the ships by now.
There's also the crazy amount of yaw involved in flying. I think they need to tone that down.

 

[dumbo]

The only really true PC games out of all of those will be SC & LT, I think. That’s a real shame, as you can only push a game so far when your eye’s are set on console release.

There's a difference between 'building a game FOR console' and 'keeping in mind a port TO console'.

- the PS4/XB1 have basically every technical feature of a modern PC. DX11+, 64-bit, ~4GB RAM, 4+ cores, HDD, networking etc.
- most modern PC games are playable on a game controller. I believe both SC and ED support (and are tested with) game controllers.

Console support isn't something that will hold back any of the titles listed.

 

[GraXXoR]

I fired up SC yesterday after not playing it for ages and the main thing that stood out to me was how much more impressive the planets are over ED. ED's planets looks really dull in comparison.
The planet on Broken Moon, I'm sure, has improved since the last time I saw it and I've little doubt they will keep on improving it/them.
Was also more impressed with the SFX, they're getting a bit closer to ED's standard now.

The main Criticism I have of SC is that the detail of the ships, whilst incredible, doesn't seem anywhere close to being economical. The damage model is one thing but the number of polys seems like overkill to me. I would have thought they could have added such high LOD0 models in after initial release for people to stare at when grounded. They'd probably have double the ships by now.

Judging by their funding, I'd say that the ships is one thing they are unequivocably doing right... LOL

Remember when Crysis came out? "Yah, but can it run Crysis?" was the standard gag for new hardware touting high graphics capability.

Chris Roberts fully intends SC to be the game that makes, for better or worse, regular PCs in two year's time fall to their knees in submission.

He envisages a game that will require a top pier PC *OF THE DAY* to play SC at full GQ.

That's why they can make the ships as complicated as they are and kind of justify it.

Actually, the M50 model was totally complete down to the wiring and internal panels, but it put such a strain on even Chris Robert's personal rig that they have had to shave it down to a mere 100k polygons. LOL.

Bear in mind that SC is targetted 18 months to two years from now at current PC GFX improvement rates.

 

[Herne]

I heard about about star citizen first, backed it immediately because, I loved the old wing commander games.

I lapped up all the info CIG were chucking out, I couldn't get enough, I became a subscriber, and for many moons I thought SC would be the game I'd be playing for decades to come.

At some point I heard about Elite Dangerous, It would have been before Alpha 1. I didn't back straight away because I'd heard about an Elite Online a long time ago, and nothing ever came of it. TBH I expected ED may well be a failed project.

I did begin to watch the Dev Diaries and read the news letters. watched the alpha videos and I really liked what I saw.

There came a point where I was pretty sure that ED was low risk. This game was not only going to be made but I was sure I was going to love it. I bought in for the premium beta, and I was blown away by the alpha 1.1 build it looked, sounded and handled great. I already loved it.

SC arena commander comes along, buggy as hell, and it felt at least to me like an arcade shooter more than a space sim. Gameplay, the way the ship handles, the way we do combat, is absolutely the core of the game. If you don't get this right, then nothing else matters. It could be the best looking game in the universe, but unless it feels and plays right, then the novelty will very quickly wear off.

I know that SC is at an early stage of development, but so was ED alpha 1. The difference in the quality of the two games at that stage really is night and day.

It seems to me like ED just came out of nowhere, with little to no fanfare, or hype, and a truly great space sim is unfolding before my eyes. With each new release of SC I become more and more disenchanted. The releases are bug ridden trash that quite frankly, makes me embarrassed for CR that he's willing to release them, when his good name is associated with them.

I'm looking forward to the cinematic experience of SQ42, But ED will be the Persistent Universe I choose to live in. Didn't expect to hear myself say that, as I am quite heavily invested in SC.

Really looking forward to Beta 2. Great Job so far FDEV. Really looking forward to ED and all it's expansions.

 

[cpbtrading]

There's a difference between 'building a game FOR console' and 'keeping in mind a port TO console'.

- the PS4/XB1 have basically every technical feature of a modern PC. DX11+, 64-bit, ~4GB RAM, 4+ cores, HDD, networking etc.
- most modern PC games are playable on a game controller. I believe both SC and ED support (and are tested with) game controllers.

Console support isn't something that will hold back any of the titles listed.

That is not really correct, they can build a game to fit the console, which will easily run on a pc. However, a game built to fit the pc first, will not run on a console in the same fashion.

Your right any game can go to console, just they will need two lines of dev to keep pc gamers happy, well me for one..

 

[cpbtrading]

I heard about about star citizen first, backed it immediately because, I loved the old wing commander games.

I lapped up all the info CIG were chucking out, I couldn't get enough, I became a subscriber, and for many moons I thought SC would be the game I'd be playing for decades to come.

At some point I heard about Elite Dangerous, It would have been before Alpha 1. I didn't back straight away because I'd heard about an Elite Online a long time ago, and nothing ever came of it. TBH I expected ED may well be a failed project.

I did begin to watch the Dev Diaries and read the news letters. watched the alpha videos and I really liked what I saw.

There came a point where I was pretty sure that ED was low risk. This game was not only going to be made but I was sure I was going to love it. I bought in for the premium beta, and I was blown away by the alpha 1.1 build it looked, sounded and handled great. I already loved it.

SC arena commander comes along, buggy as hell, and it felt at least to me like an arcade shooter more than a space sim. Gameplay, the way the ship handles, the way we do combat, is absolutely the core of the game. If you don't get this right, then nothing else matters. It could be the best looking game in the universe, but unless it feels and plays right, then the novelty will very quickly wear off.

I know that SC is at an early stage of development, but so was ED alpha 1. The difference in the quality of the two games at that stage really is night and day.

It seems to me like ED just came out of nowhere, with little to no fanfare, or hype, and a truly great space sim is unfolding before my eyes. With each new release of SC I become more and more disenchanted. The releases are bug ridden trash that quite frankly, makes me embarrassed for CR that he's willing to release them, when his good name is associated with them.

I'm looking forward to the cinematic experience of SQ42, But ED will be the Persistent Universe I choose to live in. Didn't expect to hear myself say that, as I am quite heavily invested in SC.

Really looking forward to Beta 2. Great Job so far FDEV. Really looking forward to ED and all it's expansions.

Yes, but like most here, me included, Arena Com is terrible, yes, but its just something to get players going, you can't base the game on that particular part.
It will be far better I'm sure, as will ED here. But to disregard a game this early, I've done it myself, is not good, I learnt that.

 

[Toumal]

Elite is by far the more complete of the two, but then it has been in active development longer

*sigh*

I have a bottle of champaign here for the day when we can put this misinformation to rest at last...