That is the crux of the whole thing, no one knows except the developers.
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Management Matters
- Thread starter Bo Marit
- Start date
That is the crux of the whole thing, no one knows except the developers.
Oh completely understand all of this. I am really impressed with a lot of it. I am just really struggling with staff and their "training"
I am really impressed by all the design & creative side. We haven't discussed the park opening times and how this will work with management because we don't know the details. We have discussed a little about the loans, ride sequence and marketing and as a base line these all appear really good. Yeah some tweaking just like the paths have had to get this amazing is all we are trying to discuss with what we have seen. Sorry if it has come across otherwise but it appears for every discussion and idea on what we have seen someone comes along with a "does it matter point of view" and I am just thinking back to everything we have discussed so openly and fairly throughout Alpha.
There clearly are things we cannot talk about because we don't know enough or even anything about them. However I would at least like to try and discuss the views of what we have seen rationally a little on the forum somewhere and this seemed to be the place to do it.
And that makes sense on "cost" but that certainly isn't how it came across unfortunately. However on the view of compute resources. I would suggest what I am asking for would not add any major update in regards to the features being discussed. Yes they would have to add some more pathing abilities for staff but they have been claiming this takes almost if not zero resources to add another point numerous times.
It would require another building to be rendered but let's be fair we are on about a 4m x 4m box similar to the others and so I cannot see a single item like this adding. The rest of it realistically is updated UI and some programming to adjust how things get unlocked or what calculation is needed to increase efficiency by say 5% or whatever. I am not asking for full dynamic water here [big grin]
And yes I even like how deep it feels that our "design" makes such an impact on finances and this is certainly "Park Design Management". I think using Management overall is hard as there are different areas of management and it is purely the "Staff Management" & "behind the scenes management" I feel lacking rather than anything else in game that we have been shown.
Aye I also get this, I just feel that where I am coming from with regards to training, stats, specific job training and attributes to match won't be retrofitted because it would mean such a big change to the base game that they would end up with another Elite Dangerous where they get a 1.0 game and a 2.0 game where people have had to buy a season pass to get this overhaul and fragment the player base while having to support two versions almost.
I believe the others can be added with added game play without breaking the current scenarios. Not sure if that will be possible yet without knowing more on scenarios but it would certainly change everything that we design. Maybe I am being short sighted with how they can advance the game in the future but this is the only "oversight" I have seen in the game so far with what has been shown.
With all the ideas Curly I had an epiphany. I'm thinking maybe a Management wish list thread after the beta is released. Sifting through this thread there have been some really good ideas. Thoughts?
You are talking about the staff AI here, and this is an area that has to be done very carefully as a mistake could mess up a lot more than it would add. I am not a programmer, I will admit that, but I can imagine the complexity that goes into creating an AI.
I can hope though that if what you want is not in the final release Frontier might be able to add it later when they have more time since the release date of November 17th is only 15 days away.
That is absolutely fine. Just while it was on my mind wanted to get things down in a relevant thread which has been a little derailed at times but I am just trying to talk about ideas here and move on pretty quick otherwise when things are not contributing to it.
Alright sounds good. Like I said I'll wait till beta is released since at this point we don't know what's in and what's not.
Of course what you want may not make it by release, but for all you hard core management types maybe they could be added later.
What I am saying is that the AI to get a staff member to go "I am going for training now and need to make my way to the training centre" is meant to be an almost zero load on the system. This was coming from one of the dev diaries where someone stated this. (sorry rubbish with names) and they said that suddenly that meant they could get the guest brain to recognise thousands of points with little to no overhead.
The resources that the staff AI use to train and it affect the game appears to be there already and I am really just asking for how to get to those affects to be adjusted and maybe some of the affects also adjusted slightly so that it feels deeper.
The requirement for behind the scenes and how to manage that shouldn't take any physical resources from the PC itself as that is the player managing this. What it could add is that if you stick your admin building in the middle of main street all the guests are going to be like "what is this doing here, this is ugly and intrusive" or "what does this do, oh it's not for us, that seems stupid" etc and so it affects how the guests see the park.
But yeah I don't mind if it can come later, just worried that won't be possible because of the changes.
The idea that staff are all slightly different and cost slightly different amounts, whilst meaning we get slightly randomised quality of work from the staff would be interesting that we need to decide if we are desperate for a ride attendant that isn't very good at programming sequences but is super friendly so it may break down more if you use custom ride sequence but guests are super happy when they see the attendant. So to manage this we know we need to improve their sequence programming attribute.
That to me is a relevant training system that feels part of the game rather than going yay level 2, level 2 what?
It also then would lead where you could have your attendants to get so good at say ride sequence, customer service & health and safety that they can then do team leader training to become a senior ride attendant and move onto working on the coasters.
With that, the other option is in the employment tab there could already be senior ride attendants to hire so you can choose if you want to train your staff or just pay for them. That is the depth and change I was really hoping for and to me at least seems to make it much more interesting in how you manage your staff and what they can do.
It could be that you then tie in the ride sequence further as the other thread so rather than them having to be a part of a coaster now to get best they remain on the flat ride, however they can now have two different ride sequences set, when the queue is under the 30 mins then ride sequence 1 can run, when its over 30 mins then ride sequence 2 would run so you can manage happiness of guests against guest turn over and profit made per hour on this bases.
There is a lot you could do I believe by adding some depth to the staff management portion of the game that works so well with the current systems they have shown off.
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Also thank you all for helping to bring this thread to be more constructive again [happy] it is appreciated. I am sure there are some downsides to my suggestions in game but I am trying to thing of solutions like offering the path to just hire staff direct at higher levels at the higher cost compared to working your way up.
i Really believe.... just... let me write ;
Until now, What we know about Mechanics and Animators is they are MUCH, much more evolved than was before! We can select routes to them and specific locations to stay or move arround. Donk know all about their level training but, yep, like an RPG, high level, high abilities. Mechanics can do Refurbishments, Inspections and solve Breakdowns right now and we can choose wich ones they have to do and are able for.
All this details were not able on any last RC Game before. We can know statistics about its workload, how many peeps animators entertained... Theres a lot of good info about our workers and by the way we dont know whats new with Janitors. Maybe sweeper will have more options and thinks to do into our parks.
Anyway is more evolved than it was and i'm sure than if Security Guards make a stunning performance after release, they will be able than not just warlk arround the park. As we early saw Frontier wanted to add them a specific sense and relevance.
By the way we have Janitors and Mechanics, but also all our workers arround the park at rides and Stalls. They need also a care and a supervision to check if it's all ok. So sometimes i feel like we are not apreciating all general improvements this game is taking to the film .
Also, and agree with you, we all know than more can be added. On forums since it all started a year and a half ago (aprox) appeared a loooot of great ideas, soome of them bad/non-ethic implemented by competition (Atar-eheerm) as Buildings / Workers zones to take their rest piece-by-piece.... ANYWAY, take a look. This is a real RCT3 improved pushing the limits and is really fun, exciting and a little honnor give our ideas and feedback to make this game better on every update. Never imagined to see peeople walking arround my park like happends in Planet Coaster.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeelll.... Hypped a lot as you and couting days, hours, and every second to play it! Let's see whats next today
Until now, What we know about Mechanics and Animators is they are MUCH, much more evolved than was before! We can select routes to them and specific locations to stay or move arround. Donk know all about their level training but, yep, like an RPG, high level, high abilities. Mechanics can do Refurbishments, Inspections and solve Breakdowns right now and we can choose wich ones they have to do and are able for.
All this details were not able on any last RC Game before. We can know statistics about its workload, how many peeps animators entertained... Theres a lot of good info about our workers and by the way we dont know whats new with Janitors. Maybe sweeper will have more options and thinks to do into our parks.
Anyway is more evolved than it was and i'm sure than if Security Guards make a stunning performance after release, they will be able than not just warlk arround the park. As we early saw Frontier wanted to add them a specific sense and relevance.
By the way we have Janitors and Mechanics, but also all our workers arround the park at rides and Stalls. They need also a care and a supervision to check if it's all ok. So sometimes i feel like we are not apreciating all general improvements this game is taking to the film .
Also, and agree with you, we all know than more can be added. On forums since it all started a year and a half ago (aprox) appeared a loooot of great ideas, soome of them bad/non-ethic implemented by competition (Atar-eheerm) as Buildings / Workers zones to take their rest piece-by-piece.... ANYWAY, take a look. This is a real RCT3 improved pushing the limits and is really fun, exciting and a little honnor give our ideas and feedback to make this game better on every update. Never imagined to see peeople walking arround my park like happends in Planet Coaster.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeelll.... Hypped a lot as you and couting days, hours, and every second to play it! Let's see whats next today
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i Really believe.... just... let me write ;
Until now, What we know about Mechanics and Animators is they are MUCH, much more evolved than was before! We can select routes to them and specific locations to stay or move arround. Donk know all about their level training but, yep, like an RPG, high level, high abilities. Mechanics can do Refurbishments, Inspections and solve Breakdowns right now and we can choose wich ones they have to do and are able for.
All this details were not able on any last RC Game before. We can know statistics about its workload, how many peeps animators entertained... Theres a lot of good info about our workers and by the way we dont know whats new with Janitors. Maybe sweeper will have more options and thinks to do into our parks.
Anyway is more evolved than it was and i'm sure than if Security Guards make a stunning performance after release, they will be able than not just warlk arround the park. As we early saw Frontier wanted to add them a specific sense and relevance.
By the way we have Janitors and Mechanics, but also all our workers arround the park at rides and Stalls. They need also a care and a supervision to check if it's all ok. So sometimes i feel like we are not apreciating all general improvements this game is taking to the film .
Also, and agree with you, we all know than more can be added. On forums since it all started a year and a half ago (aprox) appeared a loooot of great ideas, soome of them bad/non-ethic implemented by competition (Atar-eheerm) as Buildings / Workers zones to take their rest piece-by-piece.... ANYWAY, take a look. This is a real RCT3 improved pushing the limits and is really fun, exciting and a little honnor give our ideas and feedback to make this game better on every update. Never imagined to see peeople walking arround my park like happends in Planet Coaster.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeelll.... Hypped a lot as you and couting days, hours, and every second to play it! Let's see whats next today
All this stuff was in RCT 3 at least.
But now we are just chatting about all the management ideas and all that at least it gives time for us to sit back and take stock [happy]
I wonder if a lot of the management concerns stem from no real backstage - the dreams of a Disney World style jail (yep they really do have holding cells for naughty guests) are all but gone. We have marketing and research teams, but I'd like to have to build their office and hire them as part of the challenge; although I'm sure that sort of thing is probably very low on the list of things frontier see as important.
Well I dont know what to say to that. In the end if the slogan says that to you then you have fallen for marketing rule no1. Make a catchy slogan. And thats all it is in the end.
Also if you think that RCT3 management was too simplistic to you then why did you think PC was going to be any different? Its made by the same people.
In the end the reason why RCT3 (for me) is one of the best PC games ever made is because the management gets it just about right. Not too in depth, not too shallow, a good mixture. Thats the way it should be, Frontier are not a company that makes games like that. And the game has to appeal to as many as possible.
So where you see an 'evolution' (or not as the case may be) I see PC as more of a revolution, as in we are coming full circle back to RCT3. I have no issues with that personally. There are far greater things to worry about at the moment than the management aspects of the game.
If you want a game with uber management gameplay then you have come to the wrong place, and that was always going to be the case with PC.
While I like some of the ideas of games like the theme series (price of hiring depending of traits and how good they work, and even a resting "building" you could decorate so it doesnt look like it)) having to add researchers in your park in Theme Park World was one of the bad ideas the game had because:
-Research and management teams are NEVER inside parks, they are always offsite, most of the time miles away from the park on the real offices (and no, in places like Disneyworld, they are NOT in the utilidors).
-At the end, people just plopped a 2x2 tile path in the corner of the park with a resting building, and just added a bunch of researchers in that path. It was not fun, nor challenging.
While guards, that im sure could come in the future, could bring fun gameplay elements to the table (even adding jails you have to hide with scenery or terraforming), the researches and management team will never do becuase they never will do anything helpful inside the park.
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Good points Nemmie
I mean that btw, you got me fair and square
A few pages back I was getting frustrated and defensive as I felt our desire for management was being dismissed a lot, especially since so much creative desires are entertained on the forum.
I appreciate that we don't know as much as some of you but to be fair, all we have to go on is similar to everyone else, the alpha. Fair to say the management is bare bones in that. Then, the livestream that was supposed to expose the management was a real disappointment to many of us. I'm not having a go at Frontier here, just walking you through our journey on thinking of management.
If there is heaps more to management I'm just really surprised it wasn't even mentioned in the stream. Anyway, you make good points and I'll try to chill more before next week and go back to what we were originally discussing, ideas and requests for management.
Thanks Nemmie
Why are you dismissing because you don't like management as something not to worry about but all the creative side has to be the biggest issue. You are very frustrating to be honest with your constant dismissal of management when you are talking in the Management Matters thread!!!!
It has always been suggested by Frontier that they want good management to be key to this creative game. It is one part of a 3 piece puzzle with Management, Creativity & AI being all the pieces. They work in tandem together.
And yeah I believed in Frontier because they stated that they will be going further than anything before with Management & Creativity with the series. Sorry that you seem to dismiss or just missed this view from the Devs. We are here discussing it because it's part of the game.
If you are not interested then why just keep coming here to add that we shouldn't care? What are you worrying about? So no I don't believe I shouldn't care or not worry about management when it is what will make the game for me what it could be.
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Oh on that note about having a research team (I was happy with the UI on that front). It looked clean, it works and as you say you don't require a back stage area for such as you would imagine a team works beyond the parks boundary to do so.
On the note of training facility and why I wanted this one was for gameplay and because you do get training on site in parks. I know this as my misses used to work for Merlin Entertainment.
Thank you for your input on the hiring depending on traits and how they work etc along with a staff room. I am not looking to add anything that bogs the game down and always happy to work around things and to make sure there are shortcuts while adding depth (such as either training junior staff over time or jumping in and hiring senior staff).
The marketing team depends on the park. Some have local teams and some don't so not end of the world. But what I would like for them is maybe something where we can hire them and they are shown as "off-site" and we as the manager/CEO etc work out what we want them to do. So where I would suggest that they would research the impact of advertising on Social media and what influence it would be to bring in a VIP to open a new ride. Press release information that has more influence as your Marketing Manger improves in their attribute.
There are ways of doing things I feel that give a balance to add a little more immersion without making people have to bog down in the game too much if they don't want too. It could be that you could even set these people on auto manage for sandbox (or everything is auto unlocked on that front) or certain scenarios and you then have to deal with how they do things and react to their abilities.
What we haven't seen yet is park size either so I am assuming for stuff were some back stage buildings are required the parks are expandable and we can purchase more park land. On that front I still want to see it be more abstract shapes rather than a square because most parks are not built on perfect plots of land. I would like to see us have to manage the shape of the park, how we choose to expand and in which direction.
What happens if there is a 300m canyon that we have to get across that we are unable to just fill as it is part of a world heritage site? Can we purchase a permit though to build a roller coaster through it. Would it mean negative press because we are building there but guests want to really ride it because it has more draw.
There are so many things that could be added that don't have to ever affect sandbox and would make for some interesting management and scenario play. Of course the last point on park size/shape we don't know how anything there has changed.