Small ship combat sucks

[sinisalo]

But nearly 15 minutes sustained fire at point blank range to kill another already disabled small ship like a Cobra MkIII still seems broken.

I understand your frustration. Pardon me if it was mentioned but what weapons configuration are you using? As you can see from my build I have little firepower but it kills ships. They're tougher in a CZ as was detailed in this thread. But maybe just a little tweak of your weapons would unlock this for you.

And something's wrong with the build I posted. I have two 1D HRPS that aren't showing. It has far better integrity (and less speed) than what I just posted. I'll look in to it and replace the link.

I think it's because I am using a version of EDMC that's not up to date, and doesn't show the new slots? Not sure, but I replaced the link.

 

[Maymo]

Absolutely. And a lot of what you write is perfectly true, especially in a RTS. Two players, each being the commander, fielding a fleet. One goes for quality Protos) the other for quantity (Zerg). In an RTS it's a good and proven concept, great fun. But the moment one player pilots the Protos carrier while the ther one plays a single Zergling, the second player very likely doesn't have much fun or success any more.

In the end, for everybody to have fun, every player should matter. Giving some players reduced value works against that. Especially when looking at EDs design. There's 1 vs 1. Which you could still say that it's your own decission to fly alone. But then there are wings. Limited to four players. It doesn't matter if it's four Haulers or four Corvettes. There is no balancing based on mass, ship price, combat value or anything.

The limit is "players". Four of them.

And that's a bit the shizophrenia of this games design. On one hand, they limit by player number. So every player counts. But only if the player also has a sufficiently big ship. Else he is basiclly worthless. I personally would really appreciate it, if FD would fix that. It would reduce (while probably not eliminating) a number of problems the game has. Balance, accessibility, new player retention, gameplay options, design of new content, etc. There's a number of things which could profit a lot from this. But as long as a sufficient number of people (among them apparently people at FD) believe that merely time invested (nicer word for "grind credits and engineers) should be the determining factor for power, this can not be resolved.




Depends. Before engineers came around, there were a number of people around who flew small ships. They still often were seen as at a small disadvantage, but not utterly outclassed. So such balance at some time was possible. The drawback of "at a disadvantage, but still viable" was overcome by "more fun to fly". Just getting back to this status would already reduce the problem a lot. Unfortunately with engineers around, i see no way to get there any more, without turning small ships into big ships in disguise.

I am totally onboard with that mentality, that is exactly what I've been getting my fun doing and that's why I'm in the CZ chipping away at more powerful enemies instead of making millions in a high REZ with zero risk.

But nearly 15 minutes sustained fire at point blank range to kill another already disabled small ship like a Cobra MkIII still seems broken.

We get that the ships are tough, but a stock class 2 multicannon is incapable of firing for 15 minutes. It runs out of its entire ammo reserve after around 6 mins of constant fire...

Did you try targeting the Cobras PP?

The ships are strong sure, but I think you’re blowing the situation out of proportion a little.

 

[Drelthar]

We get that the ships are tough, but a stock class 2 multicannon is incapable of firing for 15 minutes. It runs out of its entire ammo reserve after around 6 mins of constant fire...

Did you try targeting the Cobras PP?

The ships are strong sure, but I think you’re blowing the situation out of proportion a little.

Well they did say they ran out of multi ammo, and had to use their beams for the rest of the time.

 

[Maymo]

Well they did say they ran out of multi ammo, and had to use their beams for the rest of the time.

For sure...

But I Viper3’d in a CZ recently without engineering, it was tough going but i didn’t feel like I was redundant. Same setup, beams and multi’s. Was enough to get through a couple of matches in a low.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

The durability of a Cobra III in conflict zones has increased quite a bit since I first started playing. Same with Viper variants it seems. If you haven’t been to a CZ for awhile, drop in and see for yourself.

Small beams are going to take forever to actually kill anything hull-wise. Even then, you’re not going to get piles of kills with just those and a multicannon like you used to be able to.

I tend to run a PA and two rails on my iEagle when I do take it out for hunting NPCs. Plasmas hit pretty hard, and feedback cascade rails are invaluable against bigger ships. Ammo is a concern, but it’s much easier to snag kills at a faster rate with those weapons than it is to tickle them with lasers.

I still recommend getting a wing of engineered smalls and shooting things together.

 

[Non Grata]

Any chance it could have been a Cobra MKIV? They seem to be especially tough when found in CZs.

 

[Vedmo]

Hit up some CZ's last night in my MKIV, and found something I do like about small ship CZ action.

FDL, Chieftain, Vette, I never have any concern about winning. Low/med CZ in the MKIV it was down to the wire almost every time, which made it more fun. If I was farming kills for a mission, small ship would not be the way to go, but for entertainment value it wins for me.

Ended up dropping a bunch of HRP to up shields with Guardian SRP, as I was losing weapons to module damage too fast, but after that tweak it was just a matter of a few synthesis reloads, running when ganged up on, and taking out PPs.

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

As somebody said on page one:
Buy an iCourier!
With the right engineering you'll be using that ship to take down npc Pythons, Kraits and Annacondas.

 

[Maymo]

Any chance it could have been a Cobra MKIV? They seem to be especially tough when found in CZs.

Don’t think I’ve seen a 4 in CZ, imagine they would run about the same strength as an Asp Scout...

I love popping AspS in CZ

As somebody said on page one:
Buy an iCourier!
With the right engineering you'll be using that ship to take down npc Pythons, Kraits and Annacondas.

-nods enthusiastically-

Tough little critters...

OP should also maybe try a shields down/all kinetic setup. Ships like this invincible Cobra may be able to hull tank, but it’s still limited by its tripe shields...

...wait until one of your buddies knocks out its shields and then pounce on its PP with 3 mc’s.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

"Coop and PvP dont mix well "

Tell that to CSGO, or Dota, or LOL.

These are all PvP games.

 

[WR3ND]

The iCourier is a wonderful little ship. Makes a freakishly decent shield tank.

I don't have access to it in the game, playing as an independent Commander, but what I've seen of it and with messing around with ship builds, it make for quite a fine small ship indeed. So yeah, that or Vulture, of course.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

I love My iCourrier, can go anywhere with it even when things get hairy.

 

[Non Grata]

Don’t think I’ve seen a 4 in CZ, imagine they would run about the same strength as an Asp Scout...

Yes you would think so, but actually they're the polar opposite. It's quicker to kill a Corvette.

 

[Vardaugas]

Tried out a low CZ in my Pacifier Vulture. Managed to kill all of three ships before the zone was won. CZ NPC sure have a whole lot more hull hitpoints. Took me quite a while to munch through a Python even with corrosive effect. I guess it's necessary to allow the CZ scripts to unfold properly instead of some highly engineered deathboat flipping the CZ before it really began.

 

[GraXXoR]

There are only two categories of ship in this game.

Dog fighers
Small Dog Fighters like the Vulture,
Medium Dog Fighters like the FdL
Large Dog Fighters like the Clipper.

and freighters.

The misnamed Corvette is basically just a huge dog fighter that can turn 90 degrees in a second or so and can be entirely handled by a single player without any extra crew or NPCs. When fully engineered its even more broken.

Also, I believe someone calculated that a pilot in the utterly preposterous and laughable nose cockpit of a fully engineered Cutter would face around 20G of combined acceleration and centripital forces if boosting and turning at the same time.

Just forget about the size/scale/mass/stats of all the ships. It's all nonsense (except jump range which is calculated via a what seems to be a working formula) since they all handle within a factor of 5 of each other despite there being an almost two order of magnitude difference between the smallest and most massive ships.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Their durability, slim profile, and low payout makes me avoid them personally.

Edit: (cobra variants)

It’s easier to clobber an chunky AspX, or as the post above, Corvette sometimes.

Alliance variants seem to be plenty durable too, but that’s to be expected. You can hit the drives from any angle, so even they aren’t as annoying as Cobras most of the time.

 

[Schmack]

I did like the process of unlocking the engineers. It was nice to have a goal in the game and "doing quests" for the engineers. But opinions on that may differ.

What I felt as a grind was the actual material gathering for the blueprints. It was really bad in the first year, when Engineers were released. Now I wouldn't call it a grind anymore. It's fairly easy to acquire most materials and you can trade them at the material traders. I think material gathering for engineers is at a good spot as it is now.
Also it's nice to have more variety in ship builds. It's not always just about getting an advantage for everyone. However in my personla opinion, I would like to have the possibility to buy or rent pre-engineered ships. I don't like the tinkering and it would open up the access to engineered ships for everyone.

About military ships and engineers: since we have remote workshops, I think engineering is pretty much standard affaire for everyone. It would be stupid from the military to not take advantage of it.

So finally I am here to make my point that I think it's perfectly ok that NPC's have the same possiblities in ship builds like players. What needs adressing is (engineered) defensive stacking.

If you read the descriptions of the engineers, considering they'd work with governments is pretty far fetched. Having remote engineering, imo, means you have a contact at the station that will hook you up, that tech on the tarmac who acts as a liaison and only does work for those who the "boss" has cleared. I don't consider the station command has knowledge of it, like black markets.

 

[Schmack]

There are only two categories of ship in this game.

Dog fighers
Small Dog Fighters like the Vulture,
Medium Dog Fighters like the FdL
Large Dog Fighters like the Clipper.

and freighters.

The misnamed Corvette is basically just a huge dog fighter that can turn 90 degrees in a second or so and can be entirely handled by a single player without any extra crew or NPCs. When fully engineered its even more broken.

Also, I believe someone calculated that a pilot in the utterly preposterous and laughable nose cockpit of a fully engineered Cutter would face around 20G of combined acceleration and centripital forces if boosting and turning at the same time.

Just forget about the size/scale/mass/stats of all the ships. It's all nonsense (except jump range which is calculated via a what seems to be a working formula) since they all handle within a factor of 5 of each other despite there being an almost two order of magnitude difference between the smallest and most massive ships.

We have remlock suits that can handle zero to multiple FTL travel in 4..3..2...1.. engage time. 20G seems like a walk in the park.

 

[Vasious]

The game has various levels of enemies.

Using a low power vessel against the high power stuff -should- be a bad plan, otherwise, what's the point in having more powerful things?

But should a Cobra in a CZ be a high level opponent?

 

[Drelthar]

But should a Cobra in a CZ be a high level opponent?

Higher than a random one you might pull over using an interdicter - maybe, higher than a cobra at a nav beacon, sure.

It's also not the highest level opponent, just one higher than the OP's ship was reasonably able to take on - wether the exact balance of which ships in which locations under which conditions is perfectly balanced is another question entirely - and I'm not sure in this case it was what you would generally expect.