Atmospherics and Instancing

[Ser Xav]

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere. Just a quick thought on atmospheric landings, assuming they’re being developed.

Am I right in thinking that planetary flight is an actual instance in its own right? Ie, when the ship drops out of orbital flight, at that point it’s an instance change?

The reason I ask is that presumably this transition will represent quite an abrupt break in the atmospheric approach procedure and experience.

Sure, I guess they could replicate exactly the same approach mechanic as the current planetary approach sequence.

But I feel this will break the possible beauty of a full atmospheric approach. Seeing the Star Citizen approach on YouTube, this appears to be very well realised, with a full, seamless approach from orbit to touchdown. Extremely compelling.

I don’t expect FDev would be able to change what I guess would amount to a significant and fundamental piece of programming to the engine and networking to remove the instancing switch.

But I wonder if this is one of the hurdles that is preventing the implementation of atmospherics. Perhaps this ‘break’ does not work well and FDev are simply reticent to release it as yet.

Personally having grown up on all the Elites since 1984 BBC micro version, and in particular the Elite Frontier games, with their full atmospherics, I would wager that FDev consider atmospheic landings not as an ‘if’, but definitely a ’when’. Atmospherics is a core part of the Elite DNA and history.

Thoughts?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I think they will still use the glide feature but add a different effect as you hit the atmosphere. It won't be the same as SC, but it could still be very good. Also the glide mechanic isn't a different instance, at that point you are in "real space". I think it will be fine.

I think the main hold up for atmospherics is that there are so many different types of planet, different erosion types, different volcanics, different atmosphere types, different pressures, cave system etc, to actually do atmospheric planets justice, it is going to be one hell of a job to get right.

 

[5AnaHalfHatsize]

Just a quick thought on atmospheric landings, assuming they’re being developed.

Don't worry yourself, they're not.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Don't worry yourself, they're not.

Whats your source?

 

[Jukelo]

The instance change happens right as you enter glide mod (glide mode happens in normal space).
Adding an atmosphere wont add any hurdles from the point of view of instancing and the transition between supercruise and normal space.

 

[5AnaHalfHatsize]

Whats your source?

The leak? Which has been right about everything else.

 

[Ser Xav]

Don't worry yourself, they're not.

No-one’s worrying. But how do we know this? Which bit of the leak says so? Not sure I’ve seen this leak,will have to look it up. Plus, as I said, IMHO I don’t believe FDev won’t do this, look at the history.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The leak? Which has been right about everything else.

It said atmospheric planets wasn't mentioned, it never mentioned that they were not being developed. As they have a whole team that works on planet surfaces, I wonder what they are up to. Maybe they are just twiddling there thumbs until they get given the go ahead to work on stuff. Remember that leak was correct on the most recent stuff, but what will come out in over a years time for ED was very barebones. They basically said space legs, combat with thargoids and base building. I will be very surprised if that is all it is.

 

[5AnaHalfHatsize]

It said atmospheric planets wasn't mentioned, it never mentioned that they were not being developed.

But it did mention about fighting with Thargoids? Wow, hold the front page on that one even though it's been in the game in some form for ages, but just don't bother to mention one of the two most eagerly awaited additions to the game?

I don't think so.

As they have had a whole team that works on planet surfaces, I wonder what they are up to.

Fixed that for ya. And I used to wonder that too, all the way through Horizons. Turned out they had better things to do after all and we have n.o.t.h.i.n.g. to indicate that that has changed in any way.

I will be very surprised if that is all it is.

Well, I guess if you like surprises then at least you have that to look forward to.

 

[Lightspeed]

We have seen nothing, leaked or otherwise, that hints at atmospheric planets in the next Big Update. This is curious.

The only clue that some planets are being reworked is the ice planets 'promise', but that does not appear to hint at planetary landing in atmospheres .... unless an atmosphere incorporating mist and fog (and snow?) is being worked on for some landable ice planets, and then by extension to existing landables.

Another straw to grasp at is the ability to generate gas clouds, as in Lagrange clouds, and alien life within them. Also lightning generation. That gives a nod towards Gas giants. Landing on them might not be possible ... their gravity would crush the ship? and not much point reaching the surface, but swooping through the atmosphere to seek out life and "capture" them might accompany the Update.

My guess is ... if Legs is the Big Thing ... misty landables would be a good start and would keep much of the player base happy, while they work on further atmospheric planets for future releases.

If so, Elite has a long road of further development. Which is no bad thing.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

But it did mention about fighting with Thargoids? Wow, hold the front page on that one even though it's been in the game in some form for ages, but just don't bother to mention one of the two most eagerly awaited additions to the game?

I don't think so.

You are assuming the leaker knows everything. Remember this update is coming over a year in the future. As the info was so vague regarding ED I would hazard a guess that the person doing the leaking wasn't working on ED and was more likely in the Planet Coaster/Zoo and Jurassic world team.

Fixed that for ya. And I used to wonder that too, all the way through Horizons. Turned out they had better things to do after all and we have n.o.t.h.i.n.g. to indicate that that has changed in any way.

No you haven't fixed anything. Doctor Anthony Ross now heads up that department and as far as I know, he hasn't left.

Well, I guess if you like surprises then at least you have that to look forward to.

I have nothing against surprises. But I suspect I won't be having one there.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

We have seen nothing, leaked or otherwise, that hints at atmospheric planets in the next Big Update. This is curious.

The only clue that some planets are being reworked is the ice planets 'promise', but that does not appear to hint at planetary landing in atmospheres .... unless an atmosphere incorporating mist and fog (and snow?) is being worked on for some landable ice planets, and then by extension to existing landables.

Another straw to grasp at is the ability to generate gas clouds, as in Lagrange clouds, and alien life within them. Also lightning generation. That gives a nod towards Gas giants. Landing on them might not be possible ... their gravity would crush the ship? and not much point reaching the surface, but swooping through the atmosphere to seek out life and "capture" them might accompany the Update.

My guess is ... if Legs is the Big Thing ... misty landables would be a good start and would keep much of the player base happy, while they work on further atmospheric planets for future releases.

If so, Elite has a long road of further development. Which is no bad thing.

I don't expect them in the next big update, but there is nothing to suggest that they are not working on/developing them.

 

[Riverside]

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere. Just a quick thought on atmospheric landings, assuming they’re being developed.

Am I right in thinking that planetary flight is an actual instance in its own right? Ie, when the ship drops out of orbital flight, at that point it’s an instance change?

The reason I ask is that presumably this transition will represent quite an abrupt break in the atmospheric approach procedure and experience.

Sure, I guess they could replicate exactly the same approach mechanic as the current planetary approach sequence.

But I feel this will break the possible beauty of a full atmospheric approach. Seeing the Star Citizen approach on YouTube, this appears to be very well realised, with a full, seamless approach from orbit to touchdown. Extremely compelling.

I don’t expect FDev would be able to change what I guess would amount to a significant and fundamental piece of programming to the engine and networking to remove the instancing switch.

But I wonder if this is one of the hurdles that is preventing the implementation of atmospherics. Perhaps this ‘break’ does not work well and FDev are simply reticent to release it as yet.

Personally having grown up on all the Elites since 1984 BBC micro version, and in particular the Elite Frontier games, with their full atmospherics, I would wager that FDev consider atmospheic landings not as an ‘if’, but definitely a ’when’. Atmospherics is a core part of the Elite DNA and history.

Thoughts?

Functionally I don't see why it wouldn't be handled in just the same way descending through orbital cruise and the glide phase is on a non-atmospheric planet.

There are instance transitions but there can be instance transitions in supercruise and realspace too if you travel far enough to drop your connection to one player (becoming separate islands) or to approach another active instance (islands merge). They are all seamless (no loading screen unlike jumping to another system) but when approaching a planet the transition is much more obvious because there is a banana planet for scale right in front of you - you don't notice it on the way back up

Atmospheric landings is a phrase that evokes earth-like worlds with lots of assets loading in but the transition to most planets with an atmosphere (eg present day Mars) wouldn't be much different to an airless one, only the terrain would look more complex because of erosion.

 

[5AnaHalfHatsize]

You are assuming the leaker knows everything. Remember this update is coming over a year in the future. As the info was so vague regarding ED I would hazard a guess that the person doing the leaking wasn't working on ED and was more likely in the Planet Coaster/Zoo and Jurassic world team.

No you haven't fixed anything. Doctor Anthony Ross now heads up that department and as far as I know, he hasn't left.

I have nothing against surprises. But I suspect I won't be having one there.

I don't expect them in the next big update, but there is nothing to suggest that they are not working on/developing them.

Unfortunately I'm assuming their future behaviour will reflect their past behaviour.

I wish you were right, I really do, but what you have talked about is all pure fantasy crafting.

I've said this multiple times on this forum, but when Horizons dropped it came out of a clear blue sky, no one expected such a comprehensive update so soon after the initial release and while everyone was complaining about how long it was dragging on for I just assumed they were quietly working on the next big thing for Elite, but I was wrong.

Apart from the few relatively meagre updates during the Horizons season (compared to the initial release and Horizons part 1) they were doing nothing on Elite. Then as that was petering out they just woke up one morning and thought "Jeez, people are still playing this, maybe we can do something with it", and so came Beyond and now the brave new legs coming next Xmas.

I wan't to believe that the Leek (I feel it now deserves capitals) doesn't tell the whole story, I really do, but I'm done giving these guys the benefit of the doubt.

They've teased us for long enough about what this game could be (Braben gave TED talks on rendering gas giant cloud formations in a game f.f.s), now I want to see or at least hear something tangible from them about what exactly they're gonna do before I get hyped about anything in this game again.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Unfortunately I'm assuming their future behaviour will reflect their past behaviour.

What past behavouir is that?

I wish you were right, I really do, but what you have talked about is all pure fantasy crafting.

As is yours.

I've said this multiple times on this forum, but when Horizons dropped it came out of a clear blue sky, no one expected such a comprehensive update so soon after the initial release and while everyone was complaining about how long it was dragging on for I just assumed they were quietly working on the next big thing for Elite, but I was wrong.

We don't know what they have been quietly working on.

Apart from the few relatively meagre updates during the Horizons season (compared to the initial release and Horizons part 1) they were doing nothing on Elite.

Those updates were pretty big. Unforuntatley they were mostly lot of small things instead of one big thing.

Then as that was petering out they just woke up one morning and thought "Jeez, people are still playing this, maybe we can do something with it", and so came Beyond and now the brave new legs coming next Xmas.

Beyond was great (IMHO), as to legs, we shall see.

I wan't to believe that the Leek (I feel it now deserves capitals) doesn't tell the whole story, I really do, but I'm done giving these guys the benefit of the doubt.

The leak may well be 100% correct. It may well be 100% wrong when it comes to ED. We won't know until about a years time. But stating they are not doing something as a fact with no facts to back it up is not the right way to go.

They may not be working on atmospherics, they may never work on them. They also may be working on them. We don't know. The leak is still just an unconfirmed leak until it is proven to be correct. The other stuff has been corrent, we don't know about the rest. I try not to assume.

They've teased us for long enough about what this game could be (Braben gave TED talks on rendering gas giant cloud formations in a game f.f.s), now I want to see or at least hear something tangible from them about what exactly they're gonna do before I get hyped about anything in this game again.

I don't get hyped about anything when it comes to computer games and I don't need to know what they have planned either. I am very happy playing this already great game as it is. Even if they added nothing else, I would be playing this game for some time to come.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Star Citizen is nor very compelling at that.
When you drop from quantum drive you need another small jump to reach your destination if it's a POI. If it's not because sometimes mission markers can't be selected as target on the map, you have to fly there in normal flight and it's a huge time sink.
The small jump instead is very quick and automatic, so you have no control on your ship. When you can control it again you're already through the atmosphere so the job is already done.
The approach in ED is fully manual and you have full control of your ship so even if there is a small lag to load the instance it will be better than SC anyway, so don't worry about that!

 

[VR Golgot]

The leak? Which has been right about everything else.

Doesn't completely rule out parallel skunk work on Atmos. Going by stuff like this:

We have work going on on Season 3 and Season 4 already... I'm not going to say what that is or what they are. We do know what those Seasons are, we also know what's beyond that as well, in a rough outline. But we do listen to what people want, as people can see from the different updates that we've announced this year, we just look at the headlines, a lot of things can come in in terms of the mix and bolstering the different updates and the general theme of it. ~ Lave Radio Braben Interview - 1st March 2016 - [01:46:00]

Presuming he's referring to Legs + Atmos style DLCs there. Some excessive context here which suggests he probably is. (Although I don't really subscribe to the broader 'combo' DLC theory posited there any more, now that the leak suggests a heavy Legs effort).

But yeah, 'not soon' seems like the prognosis for Atmos at the mo.

 

[VR Golgot]

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere. Just a quick thought on atmospheric landings, assuming they’re being developed.

Am I right in thinking that planetary flight is an actual instance in its own right? Ie, when the ship drops out of orbital flight, at that point it’s an instance change?

The reason I ask is that presumably this transition will represent quite an abrupt break in the atmospheric approach procedure and experience.

Sure, I guess they could replicate exactly the same approach mechanic as the current planetary approach sequence.

But I feel this will break the possible beauty of a full atmospheric approach. Seeing the Star Citizen approach on YouTube, this appears to be very well realised, with a full, seamless approach from orbit to touchdown. Extremely compelling.

I don’t expect FDev would be able to change what I guess would amount to a significant and fundamental piece of programming to the engine and networking to remove the instancing switch.

But I wonder if this is one of the hurdles that is preventing the implementation of atmospherics. Perhaps this ‘break’ does not work well and FDev are simply reticent to release it as yet.

Personally having grown up on all the Elites since 1984 BBC micro version, and in particular the Elite Frontier games, with their full atmospherics, I would wager that FDev consider atmospheic landings not as an ‘if’, but definitely a ’when’. Atmospherics is a core part of the Elite DNA and history.

Thoughts?

Yeah I've wondered about this. Both in terms of the mobile storm / cloud formation generation in the first place (as with this old skunkworky experiment), and in terms of having synched regional effects as you descend into them.

On the former got this cool post on an old thread:

FD is already using synthetic textures for planetary surfaces. There's actually not that much difference between craters and swirls; you "just" need to model turbulent flow. There's been a lot of work on smoke swirls and this is similar. The trick will be to do it quickly enough for a game. The progressive details (as you get closer) will need to be added via texture layers. Here's the best reference I could find with a quick search: http://graphics.cs.ucdavis.edu/~lfeng/sig/tensor/papers/Visualization of Turbulent Flow by Spot Noise.pdf

Here's an example:

On SC, are their atmospheric effects actually that pronounced? What I've seen in vids looked more like haze, so didn't seem to cause a major issue with 'this is the arm of a storm location' etc, or whatever.

 

[5AnaHalfHatsize]

What past behavouir is that?

They let speculation run wild in the forums, allowing the fan base to get ourselves all Hyped up, only committing to something when it can be demoed.

And though what they demo/deliver is invariably good, it's always way less than what we'd all hoped for.

Then we think "well, maybe next time" and then the cycle starts again.

Then we come to the Leak, which has completely shattered that paradigm for them.

It's been completely prescient about the non-Elite games it talked about (I mean, Ghost Busters DLC, like come on, who saw that coming?), so there's no reason what-so-ever to think it's wrong about Elite.

So yes, the Elite part of the Leak is 17-18 months into the future, but the only way it would be wong now is if Frontier, having seen their junk put out on display for all to see, just decide "we'll show them, we're gonna develop a whole section of the game we didn't plan for just to show them, grrrr".

I just don't see that happening.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

They let speculation run wild in the forums, allowing the fan base to get ourselves all Hyped up, only committing to something when it can be demoed.

There is nothing FDev can do about that. That is a player/forum user issue. Can't blame FDev for that.

And though what they demo/deliver is invariably good, it's always way less than what we'd all hoped for.

Yep, I think we can all mostly agree with that.

Then we think "well, maybe next time" and then the cycle starts again.

I don't.

Then we come to the Leak, which has completely shattered that paradigm for them.

Has it?

It's been completely prescient about the non-Elite games it talked about (I mean, Ghost Busters DLC, like come on, who saw that coming?), so there's no reason what-so-ever to think it's wrong about Elite.

Yes, but as stated they were very close to release. The leak was also wrong about ED not getting any updates until the "new era". New updates are coming every 3-4 months according to FDev, they will be smaller, but they are still coming, supposedly.

So yes, the Elite part of the Leak is 17-18 months into the future, but the only way it would be wong now is if Frontier, having seen their junk put out on display for all to see, just decide "we'll show them, we're gonna develop a whole section of the game we didn't plan for just to show them, grrrr".

What junk? The only things I would call bad is Powerplay and Multicrew. The rest is either okay or excellent in my view. Sorry but no.

I just don't see that happening.

I never said it would happen. I said it is a possibility. It is also possible that the leak is wrong in regards to ED. We already know it's got something wrong in regards to ED, how do we know it hasn't got it all wrong.

I prefer to keep an open mind myself.