NPC ships are too OP!

[NorthernDevo]

NPCs aren't OP, but they do cheat when it comes to the "Jump out with 1% hull and interdict you 30 seconds later with 100% hull".

Yup.
I don't mind hanging around in Realspace restoring my shields while my limpet collects all the available bits of Anaconda that's just tried to boil me up; the ones which REALLY annoy me are the ones who charge in, lost their shields, get stripped down to 20% Hull, turn and surge away while I keep pounding by simply outrunning me - I'm doing 350 boosting like mad after him and he just walks away like I'm standing still. I learned quickly to STAY in Realspace and restore rather than chasing after these goofs because going back to SC you have about 3 seconds before WHAMMO! The same character in a pristine ship attacks again...from a completely empty scanner. Now THAT is one of the immersion-breakers that really drives me nuts.

 

[AgentGB]

Yup.
I don't mind hanging around in Realspace restoring my shields while my limpet collects all the available bits of Anaconda that's just tried to boil me up; the ones which REALLY annoy me are the ones who charge in, lost their shields, get stripped down to 20% Hull, turn and surge away while I keep pounding. I learned quickly to STAY in Realspace and restore rather than chasing after these goofs because going back to SC you have about 3 seconds before WHAMMO! The same character in a pristine ship attacks again...from a completely empty scanner. Now THAT is one of the immersion-breakers that really drives me nuts.

Raise a good & fair point there & totally get that, but purely from a technical point of view & gameplay view i can see why those types of stats wouldn't remain persistent. By the looks of it, you have the open world (super-cruise) instance & the real world (battle) instance. Keeping data persistent & related in outcomes between the two for all NPCs would perhaps mean some heavy load or data crunching for servers & probably more that could go wrong, as opposed to say Total War games, where the outcome from a battle (e.g troops lost for you & the ai) is carried on to the campaign map, but then data is crunched a lot more slower there via turns or actions. In regards to gameplay, if it did become that persistent, folks would most likely find they're finding traders with empty hulls or the hulls half already shot out which may aggravate people.

 

[MintyBiscuits]

Well... just for kicks today on a Mission I tried to get into the six of a Python NPC. In a G5 modded Krait II, which we all know is heaps & bounds more agile than a post-nerf Python throughout the flight envelope (whereas the Python even tends to enter a "high-speed stall" anytime it boosts to speed).

Hehe, thanks to their inertia-free Grade 8 Thrusters, that was virtually impossible. That Python NPC was able to turret me without any problems - it was easily able to turret my ELITE ranked Crew flying the Imp. SLF as well.

If I myself had a Python flying like that and flying circles around and perma-turret G5-modded Player Chieftains, Vultures and Krait II's, I'd find myself being accused of shameless cheating like a madman xD

In the end I finished the cheater (NPC) by just boosting into it head-on multiple times.

Of all their cheats, their inertia-free deceleration and acceleration & rotation throughout their entire flight envelope is probably amongst the worst - at least for me.
Seeing a Python or even Anaconda NPCs easily turret virtually anything (even my Chieftain or FAS on 4 Pips ENG) or perform impossible full-stop - back-to-speed - full-stop within 2 sec maneuvers really puts me off.

My Ships all take some time decelerating or accelerating (non-boost) even G5-modded.
Many NPCs though, especially in their fake/impossible-to-engineer-0% Power Plant-builds that somehow run Grade 10 Overcharged PowerPlants? Not so much.
It can be >very< annoying.

This. Nearly rage-quit inducing.

 

[NorthernDevo]

Raise a good & fair point there & totally get that, but purely from a technical point of view & gameplay view i can see why those types of stats wouldn't remain persistent. By the looks of it, you have the open world (super-cruise) instance & the real world (battle) instance. Keeping data persistent & related in outcomes between the two for all NPCs would perhaps mean some heavy load or data crunching for servers & probably more that could go wrong, as opposed to say Total War games, where the outcome from a battle (e.g troops lost for you & the ai) is carried on to the campaign map, but then data is crunched a lot more slower there via turns or actions. In regards to gameplay, if it did become that persistent, folks would most likely find they're finding traders with empty hulls or the hulls half already shot out which may aggravate people.

Oh; I agree - the problem is of course that it becomes reasonably ridiculous taking YET another Deadly + Connie down to nearly dead, only to have him race away and boost - then hammer me immediately after re-entry into SC. I think the problem could be solved by forcing the retreating NPC to have to go repair somewhere - IOW have a time limit until he comes back.

On the plus side, when I've got three of these annoying idiots chasing after me they all try to interdict me at the same time - interfere with each other. I drop into Realspace, wait for a second to see if anyone's visiting, then boost away unmolested further. (shrug) It's a pain, and incredibly annoying but there are ways to get around it.

 

[rekurzion]

you are right OP, if you pirate enough ships you will see some very strange behavior. the other day i shot out a targets FSD. i still had the module targeted when it jumped at 0%. i followed the target to its jump location, targeted its FSD in supercruise to where it said 9%. dropped in on its wake to only see its FSD read 0% and it did not jump again after that.

my favorite strangeness of late is the moving wake signal. sometimes, the high wake will move away at high speeds from 5km out upwards to 100km in about 20 seconds and stay at the distance regardless of flying towards it.

before a recent update target ships would charge their FSD immediately after failing an interdiction. in rare occasions shots to modules will cause no damage.

a part of me wants to believe these are just random connection or programming bugs, but i've been pirating a long time and with each 'balance pass' i see increasingly strange behavior, specifically to transports ships that carry LTDs meant to make pirating as annoying challenging as possible.

 

[Bionic Bytes]

I would recommend a bit of googling as regards 'cheating' NPCs.

You’re too funny

 

[galahad2069]

I'm doing 350 boosting like mad after him and he just walks away like I'm standing still.

350 m/s boost? Geez, are you sure you doublechecked your keybinds?

 

[Morbad]

NPCs won't even reboot/repair anymore. Kill their drives and they are done.

About the only area they 'cheat'--execepting the instance-to-instance persistence they still often lack--is that they can jump when they shouldn't be able to, but they still can't jump without thrusters.

Also they tend to cheat with thier power priorities.. No shields but operational weapons, FSD countermeasures and drives after a zeroed powerplant... Ships with a G5 OC plant can't bloody run that.

Most of my armored PP ships can do this...I just have my CMDR prioritize his defenses above weapons, because he's generally trying not to be someone's fodder and would rather retreat than keep firing, if practical to do so.

In general, most of the NPC vessels I see do appear to adhere to power limits. Seen a few oddities, but if I knock out the plant, then check their module pane, several modules that are undamaged will show as disabled.

we all know is heaps & bounds more agile than a post-nerf Python

The Krait and Python have very similar flight models, the Krait is simply a bit lighter, a bit faster, and a lot more boosty. All in al, the Kraits are not a particularly agile ships.

That Python NPC was able to turret me without any problems - it was easily able to turret my ELITE ranked Crew flying the Imp. SLF as well.

Nothing a half way decent CMDR couldn't have done.

Of all their cheats, their inertia-free deceleration and acceleration & rotation throughout their entire flight envelope is probably amongst the worst - at least for me.

This is not a property NPCs have. They follow even more restrictive rules than you do with regards to their flight models.

 

[WR3ND]

NPC ships might not be OP, but I have reason to believe OP is an NPC

But are they in the top 1%?

Sorry, I'm only a character.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

The Krait and Python have very similar flight models, the Krait is simply a bit lighter, a bit faster, and a lot more boosty. All in al, the Kraits are not a particularly agile ships.

Nothing a half way decent CMDR couldn't have done.

The Krait can perma-boost and will never enter a Python's High-Speed stall that temporarily restricts it to the deg/sec turn rate to that of a T9
It's not the most agile vessel - but quite agile.

And no... no Player could >ever< pull off these maneuvers. It's physically impossible. Player Ships have to fight inertia. NPCs run by their own rules.

PS.
The most dangerous NPC Cheat - the increasingly invincible Anaconda NPC that'll still rebuild Shields, fire potent SCBs and fire multiple Plasma Accelerators and all Weapons & Utilities operational.... with a 0.0% Power Plant - I didn't even mention. Simply because it's too rare.

But no later than delivering 6000+ points worth of Damage to a 10% Hull Anaconda NPC that flies around w/ 0% Power Plant for Minutes and seeing it merely go from 10% Hull to 2% over the entire time and while under fire from 5 Ships... you know something is messed up with that NPC. Fun times , ugly surprise xD

 

[Cervantes01]

Kill faster and target modules.


If your opponent is leaving before you kill them, work harder, and work faster.

Module sniping don't seem to work like it used to. Just hitting the hull kills them quicker.

 

[SpeakerToAliens]

The problem with NPCs apparently magical/cheating abilities is that they can toggle between FA-on/FA-Off/throttle to x%/thrust up/down/left/right/climb/dive/roll-left/roll-right/power to shields/eng/weaps/target-module/select-system and all without once having to switch screens, focus on the selection they want to scroll to, move the cursor to select it and switch back to the main screen and all in a microsecond, just by "thinking" about it.

To cure this FD could put a simulated delay in, one that simulates the time it take to press a key or make a side-screen selection. I doubt MoM will do that though.

 

[Morbad]

The Krait can perma-boost and will never enter a Python's High-Speed stall that temporarily restricts it to the deg/sec turn rate to that of a T9
It's not the most agile vessel - but quite agile.

A Python that just tries to stay in the blue zone is never going to stall either, and it's one of those ships that is heavily penalized out-side that zone.

Trying to get an NPC, or a CMDR that cares more about following a script than not getting shot down, to stall a Python is not easy. NPCs, especiall higher-rank ones make very few overt mistakes like stalling their ships, but they are also phenomenally formulaic and rarely push the boundaries of what their ships can do.

And no... no Player could >ever< pull off these maneuvers. It's physically impossible. Player Ships have to fight inertia. NPCs run by their own rules.

SJA has repeatedly mentioned how NPCs follow the same rules as FA On CMDRs with regard to how their ships maneuver, and even if I thought she was mistaken, I have never seen an NPC move in a manner I could not duplicate, or improve upon, and my CMDR has shot down more than forty-thousand of them.

If you have video of a flight maneuver an NPC is performing, that isn't an obvious instancing fluke (such as when they rubberband after switching from one client to another) or bug, I would love to see it.

The problem with NPCs apparently magical/cheating abilities is that they can toggle between FA-on/FA-Off/throttle to x%/thrust up/down/left/right/climb/dive/roll-left/roll-right/power to shields/eng/weaps/target-module/select-system and all without once having to switch screens, focus on the selection they want to scroll to, move the cursor to select it and switch back to the main screen and all in a microsecond, just by "thinking" about it.

To cure this FD could put a simulated delay in, one that simulates the time it take to press a key or make a side-screen selection. I doubt MoM will do that though.

NPCs do not use FA Off and they already have such delays and inaccuracies built-in.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

SJA has repeatedly mentioned how NPCs follow the same rules as FA On CMDRs with regard to how their ships maneuver, and even if I thought she was mistaken, I have never seen an NPC move in a manner I could not duplicate, or improve upon, and my CMDR has shot down more than forty-thousand of them.

If you have video of a flight maneuver an NPC is performing, that isn't an obvious instancing fluke (such as when they rubberband after switching from one client to another) or bug, I would love to see it.

SJA can't talk but she knows all about those "little helpers"
She wrote what she had to write.

I've seen plenty of NPCs that move in ways that defy the Player flight envelope and many others have as well. It's common knowledge by now, especially after Players specifically checked for it.
Valid btw. for Normal Space just as for SuperCruise (never seen one of those >0.5c disengages to the same Station you've been flying to? You haven't been paying attention - but thanks to the SCA - which uses NPC code - we as Players can now too ).
Heck, in the past even the Docking Computer was able to cheat in several ways lol (try boosting with the Cargo Hatch open, the DC had no issues - or wobbling the Ship left & right at great frequency... there was your demonstration of "no inertia-restricted flight model" since again it used NPC code to move the Ship right there as well)

Things are what they are and there's no point in discussing it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone with sufficient experience and has been previously discussed in great detail.
(I don't remember but I think Players had assembled more than 25 points were NPCs were proven to do things impossible for the Player - difficult to draw the line between bug, oversight or feature)

 

[Morbad]

I've seen plenty of NPCs that move in ways that defy the Player flight envelope and many others have as well. It's common knowledge by now, especially after Players specifically checked for it.

It's a common bit of misinformation that is passed off as knowledge, even by those who should know better.

It's blatantly obvious to anyone with sufficient experience and has been previously discussed in great detail.

I'd say the exact same thing about the obviousness of NPCs adhering to the same, or stricter, limitations as CMDRs, when it comes to combat maneuvering.

The more experience I acrue, the more convinced I am that most people complaining about how AI flies are incompetent pilots who need a scapegoat for their own inadequacies.

(I don't remember but I think Players had assembled more than 25 points were NPCs were proven to do things impossible for the Player - difficult to draw the line between bug, oversight or feature)

I can probably name more than twenty-five, but how they manuver woud not be on this list.

 

[rekurzion]

Module sniping don't seem to work like it used to. Just hitting the hull kills them quicker.

still works extremely well. for pirating, strip shields without causing much hull damage then target FSD. as long as you keep their hull above 50-60% they will not jump. i've found burst lasers or cannons as good choices. though if don't land a module hit with a cannon you risk doing extreme hull damage particularly for lower ranked targets.

the challenge becomes getting into and staying in position. ships like the python and krait and anaconda are better suited to pirate transports like the t-7 and t-9 as their FSD's are rear mounted and can be shot while trailing. can't do that for the t-6's and keelbacks whose FSD is mounted almost right behind the cockpit and towards the front of the ship. medium transports have good boosts and follow a standard flight pattern of up thrust and slightly to the right meaning you have to not only be faster but also have exceptional pitch rate at high speeds and quick change of direction which the krait does not. the python is a bit better but slower and a no go in a conda

both asps are exceptional at harpooning medium transports, however. and in my opinion the asp scout is the best hunter for small and medium transport ships.

 

[AgentGB]

NPCs won't even reboot/repair anymore. Kill their drives and they are done.

About the only area they 'cheat'--execepting the instance-to-instance persistence they still often lack--is that they can jump when they shouldn't be able to, but they still can't jump without thrusters.

When you're playing on you're own, that is pretty much what happens most of the time, to the point after disabling their drives, i just sit on their tail until the NPC trader wasted it mines, then casually slow it down to below 100 m/s then hatch break it, for about 30 - 35 seconds (if 10 seconds travel time is roughly 1km if travelling 100 m/s?) so the loot is only spread out over a 6km run, that also gives a bit of of margin of error for canister momentum once they are initially dropped. But when you're playing with another person, as @Melanthes mentions, i've fount this too & as @rekurzion mention of different ai behavior if doing it enough is quite true. As the OP mentions, I've certainly noticed it with type 9's, even with their drives disabled, they will jump away, while type 7's can also do the same, although it feels more 50/50 with them varying on the system. Some systems i have no trouble with type 7's, some they defy all logic in other systems & jump despite their drives being disabled, moving at about 80 m/s & without rebooting or a maintenance kit, they just kick back into action on their own which is quite nasty when you're trying to rob NPCs with a player & realize you'd have a easier time doing it on your own because the NPC entire behavior starts to override it predicament with what feels like a cheat if not indeed a network issue of sort as suggested by @Melanthes

Also i seem to have it somewhat wrong about the instance-to-instance persistence, since @rekurzion as given a scenario that in some situations (his example of tracking the NPC down through wakes with NPC modules still being damaged), there is a degree of persistence to persistence, but perhaps not when being interdicted by a NPC as mentioned by @NorthernDevo

 

[Deleted member 38366]

It's a common bit of misinformation that is passed off as knowledge, even by those who should know better.

I'd say the exact same thing about the obviousness of NPCs adhering to the same, or stricter, limitations as CMDRs, when it comes to combat maneuvering.

The more experience I acrue, the more convinced I am that most people complaining about how AI flies are incompetent pilots who need a scapegoat for their own inadequacies.

I can probably name more than twenty-five, but how they manuver woud not be on this list.

It's a common bit of knowledge passed on as verified and confirmed information by those who do indeed know better.

The rest of your ramblings I don't even comment, at this point you've demonstrated you either have no clue what you're talking about or are plain trolling.
o7

 

[Morbad]

But when you're playing with another person, as @Melanthes mentions, i've fount this too & as @rekurzion mention of different ai behavior if doing it enough is quite true. As the OP mentions, I've certainly noticed it with type 9's, even with their drives disabled, they will jump away, while type 7's can also do the same, although it feels more 50/50 with them varying on the system. Some systems i have no trouble with type 7's, some they defy all logic in other systems & jump despite their drives being disabled, moving at about 80 m/s & without rebooting or a maintenance kit, they just kick back into action on their own which is quite nasty when you're trying to rob NPCs with a player & realize you'd have a easier time doing it on your own because the NPC entire behavior starts to override it predicament with what feels like a cheat if not indeed a network issue of sort as suggested by @Melanthes

There does seem to be some sort of desynchronization that can occur when NPCs switch hosts that can have very unpredictable effects.

I've seen NPCs reset, have their modules become frozen in a certain state and be unable to be damaged further, or have them just become complete unresponsive and sit there until destroyed.

Also i seem to have it somewhat wrong about the instance-to-instance persistence, since @rekurzion as given a scenario that in some situations (his example of tracking the NPC down through wakes), their is a degree of persistence to persistence, but perhaps not when being interdicted by a NPC as mentioned by @NorthernDevo

I've had NPCs that I low-waked from show up in SC still damaged the way I left them, but have also had fresh ones pop up. I can't say I've noticed any particular pattern to it, though I haven't made much effort to.

It's a common bit of knowledge passed on as verified and confirmed information by those who do indeed know better.

The rest of your ramblings I don't even comment, at this point you've demonstrated you either have no clue what you're talking about or are plain trolling.
o7

Why don't you post an example of an NPC clearly moving a ship in a way I could not?

I could even build a Python, as much as I despise the ship, and we could see if your Krait or your NPC controlled GU-97 could stay out of my arc of fire.

 

[rekurzion]

I've had NPCs that I low-waked from show up in SC still damaged the way I left them, but have also had fresh ones pop up. I can't say I've noticed any particular pattern to it, though I haven't made much effort to.

if you follow an NPC's wake their state is persistent, always. you can follow an NPC for hours if you want across the galaxy slowly picking it apart piece by piece. for this reason i always carry a wake scanner. if an npc scoots away just in time to save itself i follow its wake and catch it while its shields are still recharging.

one of my favorite bounty hunting tactics is to ambush an anaconda or corvette in a high sec system. it will jump when its gets to low hull successfully almost all of the time. then i follow it and finish it off one on one while is has no shields, busted modules and hull down to 20%.