Seamless

[-VR- Max Factor]

Don’t think that an issue, our ships are not really moving in real space, have no real mass or are in any way subject to real life relativity effects; they are just pixels, maths and code

But the math can't be calculated faster then the speed of light which is what it will need to do to achieve it. There is some other process going on which is not apparant when we play the game in supercruise.

I would love a Discovery Scanner on how they do all of that, pretty sure it would be fascinating.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'm not talking about loading time. I'm talking about the existence of a scenario outside its box. If you don't drop correctly at a station but you intentionally drop far away from it, once you reach it you won`t see it because it's not phisically there... it's in its "box" instead

This is factually not true. You can fly from station to station or station to planet or planet to planet. None of them are in their own seperate little boxes. People have got their SRVs into orbiting stations.

There are no little boxes, there is just one big box with the solar system in it with a means to get to these places faster using a process called supercruise.

An SRV going from one planet to another:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_kwnF9I9ds

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY7E0DEp5yI

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZYwdE5on9k

 

[Viajero]

But the math can't be calculated faster then the speed of light which is what it will need to do to achieve it. There is some other process going on which is not apparant when we play the game in supercruise.

I would love a Discovery Scanner on how they do all of that, pretty sure it would be fascinating.

Maths can even establish the concept of infinity in a very finite amount of time.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Maths can even determine the concept of infinite.

That I don't deny, but a computer can't do calculations faster then the speed of light which is what would still be needed. Not even the biggest supercomputers ever made can do that. Computers have a physical restriction of an electron moving through matter. No matter how much clever code FDev have, it still cannot calculate faster then the speed of light.

Quantum entaglement teleporation computers may be able to, but we don't have those currently.

 

[Viajero]

That I don't deny, but a computer can't do calculations faster then the speed of light which is what would still be needed.

We don’t need calculations faster than speed of light for this though. Same as maths don’t need infinite time to calculate a singularity or infinity concepts.

 

[StuartGT]

It would take a full blown rewrite of the Cobra Engine to accommodate a true "seamless" galaxy, with data preloading as you approach stations, planets, points of interest, even while charging a frame shift jump.

Elite Dangerous already does this. The instance networking & matchmaking is what causes the non-seamlessness. Planet-to-planet and planet-to-station travel without Supercruise can be done, they just take hella long time.

Both NMS and Elite use Hyperspace/Witchspace for system-to-system travel, during which data is streamed in of the target star system. Meanwhile, Infinity Battlescape's matches exist in a single star system - there is no galactic travel - and each server has a player cap (it isn't an MMO).

 

[varonica]

I'm not talking about loading time. I'm talking about the existence of a scenario outside its box. If you don't drop correctly at a station but you intentionally drop far away from it, once you reach it you won`t see it because it's not phisically there... it's in its "box" instead

Yes it is, we have had players manually fly other players in SRV's in real space from planetary surface out to starports by balancing them on top of their ships, all astronomical objects (that is all objects with database ID's in the system) exist in the stellar system you have entered, it's only transient objects like USS's and crashed ships that only generate once you drop into them.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

We don’t need calculations faster than speed of light for this though.

If they are simulating ships going faster then the speed of light, then they need to calculate that. They need to calculate accurate distances at those speeds and the only way to do that would be calculations going at those actual speeds, which isn't possible.

So no they don't do calculations faster then the speed of light because in supercruise I very much doubt we are using a 1-1 scale of a solar system (its all smoke and mirrors to make it look like it is). In normal flight, sure we are, but not in supercruise as it wouldn't be possible for any current computer to do that as far as I know.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It would take a full blown rewrite of the Cobra Engine to accommodate a true "seamless" galaxy, with data preloading as you approach stations, planets, points of interest, even while charging a frame shift jump. And of course, as noted, this would have a pretty notable performance hit based on individual bandwidth, latency and machine specs.

Impossible, no. Practical? No.

Perhaps in Elite: Deadly with the advent of the King Cobra Engine, we might see something more like this, but not here.

A seamless galaxy is not really practical especially when it comes to the skybox generation. There would have to be somekind of transition where one solar system starts and the other finishes loading of assets and so on. As to solar systems, they are already seamless with data preloading. What do you think happens during the hyperspace jump, they are preloading the solar system. Once in a system, you can go to normal space and take years to travel around to all the planets/stations if you like, seamlessly. I prefer to use supercruise as its a bit faster.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

Most likely because you don't really see other players ships around travelling at faster then light speeds. None of the speeds in NMS are that fast because everything is so close together. It's a very short trip in sublight speeds.

Thats a major difference. In ED everything is 1-1 in scale so Fdev can't simulate faster then light in normal space with other commanders that are not as not even Fdev can make things go that fast.

You see, if there were normal ships going normal speed, there would be actual commanders going faster then light relative to them in the computer game, but that is not possible to do currently with the technology we have, maybe quantum computers.can do that.

That is why supercruise has to be in a different level. How Fdev do supercruise is beyond me though. You would have to ask them. My guess is that the faster you go, the smaller the solar system becomes to make it feel you are going fast. Probably the reason why you are forced to slow down on approach to planets, but I could be completely wrong on that.

You're making it way too complicated. Gotta think about it like a programmer. How can you seamlessly create an illusion, not how can you literally model everything 1:1 scale. Youre getting a ton of stuff wrong here, but probably the easiest to explain would be that you dont need to model player ships in supercruise because no one will ever see them. Though for whatever reason, Fdev does have ship models in supercruise if you somehow figure out a way to get close enough, but you definitely dont need them when the relative distances are so great like that.

 

[kiario]

The seamlessness in ED is what is bothering me most.
It seams what ever you do there is this 4.3.2.1 countdown / horizontal bar and loud bang.

I say scrap the multiplayer model and introduce pure single player with same design as in FFE. Accelerated time.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You're making it way too complicated. Gotta think about it like a programmer. How can you seamlessly create an illusion, not how can you literally model everything 1:1 scale. Youre getting a ton of stuff wrong here, but probably the easiest to explain would be that you dont need to model player ships in supercruise because no one will ever see them. Though for whatever reason, Fdev does have ship models in supercruise if you somehow figure out a way to get close enough, but you definitely dont need them when the relative distances are so great like that.

Except the solar systems in normal space are 1-1 in scale, we know this as we can travel from planet to planet and planet to station in real time, in normal space.

In supercruise though, I believe it is an illusion. So no, I don't think I am getting a ton of stuff wrong.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Nope. Maybe SP would have it, but since MP is so precious to the design there won't be seamless.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

Except the solar systems in normal space are 1-1 in scale, we know this as we can travel from planet to planet and planet to station in real time, in normal space.

In supercruise though, I believe it is an illusion. So no, I don't think I am getting a ton of stuff wrong.

I dont know, man. It seemed like you had some hang-ups about how the game worked and how we can simulate multiple factors of lightspeed on a desktop. Maybe you're forgetting something fundamental, like the fact that you're seeing a fast slideshow at 60 frames per second and the computer only has to render those specific increments of time. So, the faster two objects pass each other, the less the computer has to render those parts. It might have to render that planet in the background every single frame a little bigger, but you might only catch 1 frame of something traveling the opposite direction because it was only going to be in view for a 60th of a second. I have a feeling that you might be thinking about the computer having to render those objects at a much higher framerate as they pass?
Imagine every object left a dotted line for each time the computer rendered it in space. Faster objects would have dotted lines with way more spacing, and I think you're trying to fill those gaps. But you dont have too. We cant see the gaps anyway.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

The engine's can nae take it Captain ...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I dont know, man. It seemed like you had some hang-ups about how the game worked and how we can simulate multiple factors of lightspeed on a desktop. Maybe you're forgetting something fundamental, like the fact that you're seeing a fast slideshow at 60 frames per second and the computer only has to render those specific increments of time. So, the faster two objects pass each other, the less the computer has to render those parts. It might have to render that planet in the background every single frame a little bigger, but you might only catch 1 frame of something traveling the opposite direction because it was only going to be in view for a 60th of a second. I have a feeling that you might be thinking about the computer having to render those objects at a much higher framerate as they pass?
Imagine every object left a dotted line for each time the computer rendered it in space. Faster objects would have dotted lines with way more spacing, and I think you're trying to fill those gaps. But you dont have too. We cant see the gaps anyway.

Not talking about rendering speeds. It's about positioning of said objects in relation to you. I would be very interested in how the inner workings work.

But I think the main reason why they have a seperate layer for supercruise and normal space is for gameplay reasons. We have different type of scanning in supercruise and it would be much easier to have it on a seperate layer. Seeing all the ships not in supercruise and in supercruise would likely cause havok with your sensor screen infront of you. Easier to seperate the two out, and it allows interdictions.

 

[galahad2069]

But the math can't be calculated faster then the speed of light

If your great grandmother's pocket calculator can compute as fast as 45 instructions per second, then is it slower or faster than her bicycle she can ride 20 kms per hour?

Which quantity is larger, 1 meter or 2 Ohms?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

If your great grandmother's pocket calculator can compute as fast as 45 instructions per second, then is it slower or faster than her bicycle she can ride 20 kms per hour?

Which quantity is larger, 1 meter or 2 Ohms?

Unsure what that has to do with anything I have said.

 

[galahad2069]

Unsure what that has to do with anything I have said.

Well you compared the speed of calculations to the speed of light. I just wanted to know what you meant by that (how many instructions per second is the same as 299792.5 km/s).

 

[govny]

the engine is essentially seamless. the transitions are due to the introduction of multiplayer and the necessity to create instances to put player together. Get rid of multy and you will have a completelly seamless experience.