Could or should Frontier enhance the FSS or add in and incorporate an optional ADS-like expansion module?

21 pages so far. Here is my opinion and many won't like it. The FSS totally nails small systems in seconds and say a 30 planet system in minutes. It is all about the controller a player uses or the lack of one for the best results. Maybe using an X-56 with the addition of those two amazing analog thumb sticks (the X-55 doesn't have them) I can show how fast this can be. I'll work on a video. Then maybe an ED YouTube video already has the answers. When I figure something out someone else figured it out long ago.

Update with a raw basic Bandicam video showing how fast this is but the Forum doesn't like me. Others will figure it out. I welcome figuring out assistance posting it on the Forum.
 
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This was the straw that broke exploration.
Except it's not broken. It's perfectly viable.

If they didn't do this, the nav panel could have been left whole and thousands of pages of forum posts would not have been written.
If they didn't do that, the nav panel would be blank for every system. Surely that would have been worse for you guys?

They sold it to youtubers as "communal exploration" or cartographic telepresence as some have called it and they were gushing all over it for some reason. I think they hadn't seen the detail that they have to sell the data and you have to get yourself into the same system before it kicks in so completely is pointless for those purposes anyway... lol.
They new exactly how it worked. Stop being a fool.
 
I think we better double efforts into finding ways through the fss, because unless we can convince frontier that the fss is one giant bug seems like they've got their hands full with finishing carriers and a new commitment to bug fixes they've just publicly undertaken.
That would be because it isn't a bug. Sure there are bugs within the FSS, but the mechanic still works fine.

The nav panel not being populated could easily be seen as a bug. For communicating to other people that a system has been pre harvested, the barcode could be used again (like it is with full fat prediscovered systems). The interim state of pre discovered yet unexplored is completely redundant to any demographic.
How would the wave forms do that. All the wave forms do is tell you the type, not the amount until you have scanned them.

Personally I would remove the whole Nav panel pre-discovered part out entirely.

I would also get rid of the auto tagging. You should have to make a decision yourself if you want to tag them or not and add a way to populate the system map by using the FSS without discovering what the exact planet is.

And for those looking for interesting configurations, maybe have untargetable black orbs in the system map of planets within a certain LY distance. Something like that.
 
3) You had no way of getting additional information about a system, especially complex systems, without honking. This is where the FSS really shines IMO. Since its an active system, I can use it to get the information I want, without revealing the information I want to discover on my own.
The ONLY thing the FSS handles better than the ADS ever did is probably USS's - everything else is handled in a worse way.

The pre-3.3 ADS honk only provided basic navigational data for a system (no more detail than an FSS honk in an explored system), you had to detailed scan things to get the real information while with the FSS you are given no navigational information and everything else essentially on a platter - providing you are prepared to play the "mini-game".

The FSS favours those who (a) place a high level of value on there being a process for unveiling the map and (b) cash/time centric players, for everyone else it is a mere barrier to game-play that was previously available and in at least some cases takes away any true sense of discovery. The mini-game itself is anything but engaging and FD removed gameplay choice by the way it was implemented. If the FSS were nerfed so that a near body scan was still required for discovery rights then it would make matters worse for more people BUT would highlight the issue that some of us have been getting at wrt how bad the FSS actually is.

Ultimately, FD have failed to do what they have claimed to do - actually improve exploration and have actually made it worse in at least some respects. There are ideas to improve the FSS that have been presented both in this thread and elsewhere that could salvage the situation but FD seem to have no interest in fixing the mess that they made of exploration with 3.3.
 
Not gonna lie, I’m a huge fan of the FSS. I explore for a sense of discovery, to see sights nobody else is likely to ever see, not for credits or “tags.”

The ADS catered to the latter IMO, while the FSS, when properly utilized, really enables former.
I'm sorry, but this is just not true.

The FSS is a money making and tagging machine.

edit: No really, I'm quite puzzled about this sentiment. The FSS enables you to detect and scan the valuable planets from the star within seconds. Without it you needed to fly towards them to scan them to get tags and credits. How in the world is the FSS not more efficient for credits and tags?

By the way, I explore for a sense of discovery, to see the sights as well, and the FSS doesn't work for me for that. So please don't portray the FSS as catering to those types of explorers. The ADS had me check out way more systems than the FSS has. The FSS turns me into a cherry picking explorer because that's all that it leaves for me.
 
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The weird FSS mini-game is completely inconsistent with the rest of Elite Dangerous. For myself, this game was largely about the exploration experience. Therefore, the FSS killed that immersion and, effectively, the game. I still check the forums from time to time to see what, if any, features are going in (or out!).

All opinions deserve to be heard IMHO.
 
By the way, I explore for a sense of discovery, to see the sights as well, and the FSS doesn't work for me for that. So please don't portray the FSS as catering to those types of explorers. The ADS had me check out way more systems than the FSS has. The FSS turns me into a cherry picking explorer because that's all that it leaves for me.

Yep for sure. Not wanting to be outdone by max factor I’m also jumping in with the pretend it’s something else approach to the fss.. and to make it work you have to be clinical in what you know and want to do with it. Precisely this and in that order. If you forget and try to use pure wonder again you are right back to stage one suboptimalities.

its extreme cherry picking to a fault.
 
Yep for sure. Not wanting to be outdone by max factor I’m also jumping in with the pretend it’s something else approach to the fss.. and to make it work you have to be clinical in what you know and want to do with it. Precisely this and in that order. If you forget and try to use pure wonder again you are right back to stage one suboptimalities.

its extreme cherry picking to a fault.
Please don't name me unless you are going to be honest.

What is this pretend it's something else approach you talk about?
 
I'm sorry, but this is just not true.

The FSS is a money making and tagging machine.

edit: No really, I'm quite puzzled about this sentiment. The FSS enables you to detect and scan the valuable planets from the star within seconds. Without it you needed to fly towards them to scan them to get tags and credits. How in the world is the FSS not more efficient for credits and tags?

By the way, I explore for a sense of discovery, to see the sights as well, and the FSS doesn't work for me for that. So please don't portray the FSS as catering to those types of explorers. The ADS had me check out way more systems than the FSS has. The FSS turns me into a cherry picking explorer because that's all that it leaves for me.
I won't deny that the FSS also does a marvelous job at cherry picking ELWs and WWs.

But players who rely on just glancing at the spectrum, looking for signals between the two "AL"s, are going to miss a lot of ELWs and WWs since the way the FSA works, size outliers for ELWs and WWs will appear in the bands for Rocky-Ice and Water Giants respectively. As I understand it, while the rate of discovery for ELWs and WWs on EDSM has dropped, the rate of discovery for AWs has skyrocketed. Furthermore, aside from a drop just after the introduction of the FSS, slightly more systems are being submitted to EDSM on average than before the FSS, despite the FSS taking longer than the ADS to determine if a system is "worth exploring."

This tells me that the ADS did a much better job at cherry picking valuable worlds than the FSS does, despite the fact that it takes less time to scan them than before. It's like saying a mechanical picker is better picking an orchard by hand, because it can go through a row of trees twice as quickly as a person can, but ignoring the fact that a person got all of the good ones, but rarely accidentally picked the bad, while the mechanical picker only got half of the good ones, and almost as many bad.

On a more personal note, the ADS killed any desire to explore for me. It revealed most of the interesting information about a system at the press of a button, leaving behind only a grind for credits and "tags." Whenever I thought I found a way to make exploring interesting, the sheer efficiency of the ADS had me Buckyballing it back to the Bubble within weeks. It's amazing I managed to unlock Palin at all. Keep in mind that the thing I most looked forward to when I backed ED on Kickstarter was exploring a procedurally generated Milky Way galaxy.

Since the FSS, the only thing that's interrupted my exploration is real life being particularly attention seeking, a couple of Buckyball races, deciding I wanted to unlock the iCourier for my alt back in (or near) the Bubble, and the September Update. Other than that, I've been exploring with my main and my alt. This primarily is because I get a genuine sense of discovery when using the FSS that I never got with the ADS. This is because I'm the one doing the discovering, not the ADS. Yes, I also get a huge amount of credits, and of course the "tags," but those are a by-product of me exploring, as opposed to my goal.

Close behind is that in my experience, the FSS is simply superior at finding many of the things I find most interesting compared to the ADS. Not only can I spot an eclipse candidate without having to fly all the way out there, but I can determine if the candidate also has geological activity. Granted, this would be a lot easier if the orbit line bug in VR was fixed, but I can't get enough of laying down beside my SRV in a field of geysers or other geological POIs, and watching a planet or moon blot out its primary. And while I haven't yet seen a planetary transit of a star from another body, I've had sufficient close calls that it's only a matter of time before I catch my first one. The FSS has allowed me to find, and land on, Roche worlds and close binaries in systems I would've dismissed as "uninteresting" if I'd gone by the ADS or FSA alone, because IMO those kinds of things stick out like a sore thumb in the FSS scanner.

And that's just a tiny sample of the things I, personally, I'm actively searching for while out exploring. Because the things I most find interesting would never reveal themselves on a system map, due to being transitory in nature. But when used properly, the FSS will reveal them all...

Except GGGs. The FSS simply won't work if your goal is to find GGGs quickly. But GGGs are so vanishingly rare, I don't worry about missing them... primarily due to the fact that as long as I'm not being rushed, I'll scan the "uninteresting" systems using the FSS, just in case I missed something interesting.

And that's the thing. Yes, the FSS can be used as a "minigame" to grind out as many bodies within a system as quickly as possible for credits and "tags," or to reveal the system map, but it can be used for so much more than that. THAT is the beauty of the FSS in my eyes. As the entry level discovery tool, it's like those wonderful multi-tools that you can keep in your pocket or purse, with a knife, screw driver, bottle opener, file, cork screw, pliers, saw, and can opener... all in one tiny package. Yes, having a separate tool for each task is superior to the one in the multi-tool, but if I had to pick one tool to be stranded in the wilderness with, a multi-tool would be the one, because it can do everything...

Except be a hammer. It simply won't work as a hammer. :p

And that's still the flaw of exploration in Elite Dangerous in my eye. Pre FSS, all we had was a hammer. Great for those who liked hammers, but extremely poor for players whose exploration styles required other tools. Post FSS, we've got a multi-tool, which is great for those players who aren't doing something that requires a hammer, but a literal game stopper for those players whose interests require one.

The thing I want most from exploration isn't one tool to rule them all. I want a tool box with a wide variety of tools to choose from, from which I can select the tools that will best do the job I want to do. That would include a hammer. I may never need it, but it doesn't mean I think others shouldn't have it if they need it.
 
You're in a system someone else has already scanned.
It doesn't work like that in 'virgin' systems.

Almost a year down the line and you have to wonder just how many more times that fallacy has to be refuted.

The bottom line is that FDev completely and utterly broke the game for many of us with the FSS fiasco and to rub salt into the wound they knew full well what they were doing. This despite any number of promises over the years that they would never remove existing gameplay.
 
I won't deny that the FSS also does a marvelous job at cherry picking ELWs and WWs.

...................

The thing I want most from exploration isn't one tool to rule them all. I want a tool box with a wide variety of tools to choose from, from which I can select the tools that will best do the job I want to do. That would include a hammer. I may never need it, but it doesn't mean I think others shouldn't have it if they need it.

Yes, it's the lack of choice, the funneling of everything through one mechanic that I suspect has caused the issue. Something that seems to be a very strange design decision for a game designed to let players blaze their own trail.

I think the cherry picking discussion just arises out of frustration. Both systems enable(d) cherry picking, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that. Why should players not choose what systems they want to explore, what bodies they want to scan? It's not as if ELW's are significant (you can't do anything with them) or even that rare. People wanted them because they are pretty and valuable. And that's fine. :)

So for me, I want to engage with and investigate (explore) something because it's of interest to me. So your example about ELW's and rocky-ice bodies is relevant. Before I realized that there was a tiny crossover there, I scanned a couple of what the spectrum told me was an ELW, but turned out to be a rocky-ice body. I quickly realized that my tuner wasn't centered on the signal, so it was my error... Now, I don't believe I missed any ELW after that, but maybe I did, and honestly I don't care, I'd rather miss an ELW than scan a bunch of bodies that I have no interest in. :)

So, depending on what I think is interesting at the time (and that changes), I would find a hammer quite useful on occasions, and I think it would be great if FD could find a way to provide one without compromising your multi-tool. :)
 
I won't deny that the FSS also does a marvelous job at cherry picking ELWs and WWs.

But players who rely on just glancing at the spectrum, looking for signals between the two "AL"s, are going to miss a lot of ELWs and WWs since the way the FSA works, size outliers for ELWs and WWs will appear in the bands for Rocky-Ice and Water Giants respectively.
And the ELWs, WWs and AWs in the system map weren't always displayed clearly either. And you yourself pointed out the flaw in your reasoning: outliers. In other words: very infrequent.

But what I responded to was:
Not gonna lie, I’m a huge fan of the FSS. I explore for a sense of discovery, to see sights nobody else is likely to ever see, not for credits or “tags.”

The ADS catered to the latter I
MO, while the FSS, when properly utilized, really enables former.
And that is simply, quite plainly put: wrong. The FSS is a money making and tagging machine.

This tells me that the ADS did a much better job at cherry picking valuable worlds than the FSS does, despite the fact that it takes less time to scan them than before.
And that is still wrong. Time is an important factor in cherry picking. And the FSS is a cherry picking powerhouse.
 
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Well, this turned out to be a long post, prompted by Darkfyre99's reply, but there is a conclusion that I'd like to share in a tl;dr form from its end. That is this following part:

The developers have gone out and said that there is going to be next to no new content for a long time, so if Frontier wanted to increase - or even maintain - player activity in exploration too, the only way now would be to improve the FSS and finally address player feedback on it, and start fixing serious bugs in all parts of exploration which will be a year old in December.

However, that's a big if. Judging by their actions so far, they don't seem concerned with player retention until the next expansion. We'll see with their December bugfix update if this really is the case or not.


So, let's see.

But players who rely on just glancing at the spectrum, looking for signals between the two "AL"s, are going to miss a lot of ELWs and WWs since the way the FSA works, size outliers for ELWs and WWs will appear in the bands for Rocky-Ice and Water Giants respectively.
Do you have proof of this? Size outliers for WWs might appear in the water giants category, which are rare enough that players might mistake them for WWs. However, ELWs are very constrained in size (probably The strictest), and I've yet to see even the lightest of them (gravity near 0.4g) drop down to the RIW range on the barcode.

As I understand it, while the rate of discovery for ELWs and WWs on EDSM has dropped, the rate of discovery for AWs has skyrocketed.

Furthermore, aside from a drop just after the introduction of the FSS, slightly more systems are being submitted to EDSM on average than before the FSS, despite the FSS taking longer than the ADS to determine if a system is "worth exploring."
You can look up the exact statistics and analysis yourself, but let's see what you understood wrong here.
The rate of discovery for ELWs and AWs both skyrocketed during Chapter Four's launch and DW2, and dropped like a rock after the latter ended. Since then, ELWs are back to slightly under the same levels as they were before the FSS, AWs are still scanned twice as much as they were before, and systems, the same levels as before... but all of these with console players added into the mix after Chapter Four, mind you.
There was also much more interest in using the FSS up until DW2's end, with 50% more average bodies scanned per system.

So basically, there was a skyrocketing of exploration activity for half a year, then all the gains from the golden opportunity of DW2 were gone, and with console support added into the mix, we're back at and slightly under the same activity as used to be the standard for PC players only. The only thing that changed is that stars are much more prevalent now (great!) and AWs are added at twice the rate before the FSS.
We don't know how many console players there are uploading to EDSM, but at least we do know that roughly 20% of the DW2 participants (both signed up and those who finished, although the latter's ratio decreased a bit) were on consoles.
So, depending on where the actual ratio (outside of expeditions) is, if activity has truly remained the same then that's because the number of console explorers (uploading to EDSM) is insignificant.

This tells me that the ADS did a much better job at cherry picking valuable worlds than the FSS does, despite the fact that it takes less time to scan them than before.
Just the fact that people scan many more ammonia worlds than before shows us that the FSS does a much better job at cherry picking valuable worlds. Then there's also that you needn't fly anywhere, so even though an AW is not nearly as valuable as an ELW/WWTC, it's still worth the time required to click them.
Then there's also the fact that the FSS shows you without uncertainty all the body types there are in the system. Even if you haven't memorised the barcode ranges yet, the game explicitly tells you what is found at your current position on it.

For example, suppose you were looking for amphora plant candidate planets. Which means that there has to be a landable metal rich planet, and the system must contain an ELW or a water giant or a gas giant with water-based life.
Now. Consider how such a system would look on the system map, and how its FSS barcode would look. It is of course much easier to get it from the latter.
I'm not saying that better cherry-picking is a bad thing, but saying that the previous system was better at it than the one designed to pick out body types with complete certainty is incorrect.


As for the rest of your long explanation of your interests, and how the FSS fits them... No offense, but you were quite self-centered there. Why? Because you are quite alone in your interests - historically, I don't think there was anybody focused on sharing with the community the examples you've offered us - and yet you say that they come from the "proper" way of using the FSS. The developers even talked about and showed us what it was designed for: to cherry-pick out body types, to scan every body in systems faster, and to not have to explore more for POIs. My interests, and the interests of many veteran explorers, used to be more than these, but few people would say that ours were the primary interests of the majority of explorers, and the "proper" way to explore. If there even is a "proper" way to explore, and I don't think there is (I dislike talks of true explorers), then at most it's the one that the developers focused on.

However, moving on from one's self, at the end of the day, not only is exploration in Elite a niche activity, but the majority of it is people exploring while going from known points A and B - mostly the Sol-Colonia-Sag. A* lines, and not scanning whole systems. Frontier knew this (or could have known, if they bothered to look at the data), so of course the FSS and its changes were designed with this primarily in mind. Look at how the only major thing they changed about the FSS based on feedback was that honking would still give you credits.

Crucially, there is one major flaw with this, one major flaw with how the FSS caters to cherry-picking body types, scanning faster and rewarding more: the question of longevity. Concerns about this were raised during the focused feedback thread's time too, that once people get bored with these, as they have always done, then for the more rare things that remain after this, which keep some (not all!) people exploring, the FSS as planned will be inferior. Some minor changes could have gone a long way there, but Frontier were unwilling to implement anything more.

As far as we can tell from the data, unfortunately this turned out to be right. (Then there's also that the vocal proponents of the FSS tend to be those who don't explore a lot, and support for it over time played is pretty much always decreasing.) The initial enthusiasm for exploration that was sustained by DW2 far longer than new update bursts tend to happen (which historically was one month, sometimes two) is all gone. Sure, in the couple of months following DW2, you could say that people were exhausted from exploration, but it has been half a year since DW2 reached Beagle Point, and activity has been stagnating since four months. The Chapter Four launch and DW2 introduced a lot of people to exploration who were new to it, and at best, the number of them who stuck with exploration so far was more or less equivalent to the number of those who were turned off from exploration by the changes. Wouldn't it have been better to at least not turn off groups of people? (For the record, in my opinion even in alternate timeline where Chapter Four was missing the FSS, nearly as many people would have been turned off after DW2 simply because most went for the promise of lots of new quality content, which was why the expedition was formed in the first place... and there turned out to be barely any new content, and mostly of low quality too.)
The developers have gone out and said that there is going to be next to no new content for a long time, so if Frontier wanted to increase - or even maintain - player activity in exploration too, the only way now would be to improve the FSS and finally address player feedback on it, and start fixing serious bugs in all parts of exploration which will be a year old in December.

However, that's a big if. Judging by their actions so far, they don't seem concerned with player retention until the next expansion. We'll see with their December bugfix update if this really is the case or not.
 
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Do you have proof of this? Size outliers for WWs might appear in the water giants category, which are rare enough that players might mistake them for WWs. However, ELWs are very constrained in size (probably The strictest), and I've yet to see even the lightest of them (gravity near 0.4g) drop down to the RIW range on the barcode.
Large RIWs and small ELWs overlap on the FSA, and that overlap is to the left of where you'd be looking if you're using the "AL--AL" method to determine if a system is "worth exploring." I think most explorers have figured this out by now, but it would be interesting to see how the rate of RIW discovery has changed over the last year.

Also, I'm not saying that the way I use the FSS is the proper way to use it, anymore than I would say that gravity braking is the proper way to Supercruise. What I am saying is that if you're simply using the FSS to spam the "minigame" and then look at the system map, then you're missing out on a lot of the stuff the Stellar Forge has to offer, just like if you're using the "forum recommended method" (or supercruise assist), then your trips are taking longer and you're getting interdicted much more frequently.

Am I an outlier in the exploration community? No doubt about it, but then I've always been an outlier when it comes to this game. My approach to Supercruise, Powerplay, BGS work, engineering, interdiction evasion, trading... pretty much how I approach this game is well outside the norm. But in my experience operating outside the norm is more effective than the normal approach... and more importantly a lot more fun.

YMMV

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The developers have gone out and said that there is going to be next to no new content for a long time, so if Frontier wanted to increase - or even maintain - player activity in exploration too, the only way now would be to improve the FSS and finally address player feedback on it, and start fixing serious bugs in all parts of exploration which will be a year old in December.
On that we agree.
 
You do understand that whenever FD changes any aspect of the game, someone will not like the change. So you are saying that no changes should be made to the game unless they account for all the different playing styles?

This is why they should add things. We could have had both FSS and ADS, but in their wisdom they decided to snatch the old away. It didnt even work inside the game world, a brutal bit of god modding to reconfigure peoples ships. It was bungled spectactularly and nobody should even be surprised that there were complaints.... a year later there are still complaints. I dont know what was so hard about being like "ok maybe we didnt get this exactly perfectly and we will work on it some more" that would have been a reasonable response.
 
The developers have gone out and said that there is going to be next to no new content for a long time, so if Frontier wanted to increase - or even maintain - player activity in exploration too, the only way now would be to improve the FSS and finally address player feedback on it, and start fixing serious bugs in all parts of exploration which will be a year old in December.

However, that's a big if. Judging by their actions so far, they don't seem concerned with player retention until the next expansion. We'll see with their December bugfix update if this really is the case or not.
I think we've already seen whether this is the case or not. Two words: Focused Feedback. (Does anyone still have the link to these threads, the forum search function throws a big sulk when I ask it to do it's job)?

edit: And lets not forget a large portion of the Focussed Feedback was eaten up by an unscheduled Open Only Powerplay Sandro Brainfart, after which they ignored all feedback they got from that thread as well.

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And the ELWs, WWs and AWs in the system map weren't always displayed clearly either. And you yourself pointed out the flaw in your reasoning: outliers. In other words: very infrequent.
I mean, arguably, worlds that looked very close to ELWs in the sysmap but were actually other kinds of worlds outnumbered the actual ELWs considerably, it took targeting them and knowing what you were looking for to determine if a world was actually an ELW.
 
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