Physics of thrust in normal space

[777Driver]

Where did you get that from? That was not the idea at all.

The Frontier games had a newtonian flight model, and from the beginning it was stated ED would not have one.

Last part is not correct either, it was stated we would get a Newtonian model with a FBW control law overlayed. That is exactly what we got.

@Brrokk - Originally FA-OFF would maintain the full boost speed, devs changed the thruster behaviour because it was too easy to outrun NPC's( this was before we could engineer our ship and outrun any NPC)

There are still some quirks left over, for example, it is still possible to maintain max 4 PIP Engine velocity with no pips in engines, something that cant be done FA-ON due to the thruster decelerating the ship to max PIP velocity.

 

[Zieman]

Possibly, except I don't recall ever EVER being anything like a close relative speed to my opponent. The game nearly went straight into the bin on account of my first encounters with any kind of enemy were at such amazing velocities relative to each other, that getting into a situation like the video details was a practical impossibility.

The trick was to hit F7 (TAB in FFE) to turn your engines off, so your ship wouldn't continually accelerate trying to achieve the set speed. Then it was just learning to dab your various thrusters effectively. I never got good at that, but could survive most encounters with save game spamming.

 

[Hossi]

The speed limit is there for the same reason our lasers have a range of 3km.
To enable close range combat.

Yes its unrealistic. But its a prerequisit for a game with entertaining combat.

Have you ever played KSP? Done a orbital rendezvous? With realistic physics it takes a highly sophisticated, well planned maneuver that takes ages just to get the target in visual range. That has a certain entertainment value on its own, but its unfit for a combat game (and KSP has time acceleration).

I've tried space combat games with realistic physics. Its terrible. Wouldn't recommend.

 

[Friedenreich Xante]

I remember a bug in engineering allowed for quasi limitless speed. It was impossible to handle, set aside to fight. But if you want to play with physics, there is KSP. Elite never had the ambition to be that kind of game.

 

[IamMe]

Would be nice if FD allow option in game settings for full newtonian physics in Solo mode.
But as others stated it's not space flight sim, it's a game and for gameplay reasons they added speed limits aswell air drag in space (bump container floating in space and it will gradualy stop moving, ship aswell when thrusters cut off).
Good thing is it will be easier to model atmospheric flight when atmo landing appear.

Even i'd like it to be more realistic, it's still nice and fun with perfectly good compromise to please wider audience.
Going full realism ED sales would be way lower, profit would be low and therefore further development questionable (flight sims are good example).

 

[sqzbox1]

These are problems with your piloting, not the NPCs being able to do something a CMDR cannot.

Yeah - predictable response from you Morbad. Adds heaps to the discussion. Thanks.

 

[sqzbox1]

Video evidence or it didn't happen.
NPCs use a strange mix of FAoff and FAon iirc, but generally a dirty drived FAS will never be outturned or outsped by a NPC FAS.
Also, CZ NPCs have engineering, so they can come close.

edit: ninjas ninjas shakes fist

Yep - fair enough. I was just commenting my feelings - not looking for feedback or solutions or anything. Like I said, I haven't bothered to document it properly - too lazy I guess. I know the stock answer, as used by Morbad, is "bad piloting", and maybe so, but not entirely I feel. I've been playing a long time - and I actually do hold a real life pilots licence. I know the physics and I know how to fly. But - no video so didn't happen, right? Oh, and not CZ's - I realize those are battle builds.

 

[Morbad]

Yeah - predictable response from you Morbad. Adds heaps to the discussion. Thanks.

I'd argue an accurate correction adds more to any discussion than a paragraph of misinformation.

That said, if you feel that I am mistaken and that the NPCs you've been fighting are doing things, in combat, that CMDRs cannot do, please provide a demonstration of this.

Yep - fair enough. I was just commenting my feelings - not looking for feedback or solutions or anything.

Not accepting feedback or solutions to feelings that appear to be baseless is the problem here.

I've been playing a long time - and I actually do hold a real life pilots licence. I know the physics and I know how to fly.

Many of us have been playing a long time, but your real-life pilot experience is not an asset here. You probably need to unlearn things you take for granted in an actual aircraft, becase ED does not feature real aircraft, it features fantasy spacecraft. There are more differences than similarities between how airplanes fly and how ED ships fly.

But - no video so didn't happen, right?

Burden of proof is on the one making the more extraordinary claim. Most of the more competent ED pilots here can run circles around any NPC using similar hardware, and the AI programmer herself has repeatedly emphasized the limitations that NPC ships operate under. Your account is the one that doesn't add up. It's not unique, but neither is it particularly credible.

 

[babelfisch]

Yeah - predictable response from you Morbad. Adds heaps to the discussion. Thanks.

He is right though. If I can reliably outmanoeuvre NPCs but NPCs always outmanoeuvre you, we are either playing different games or you aren't using the full potential of your ship. So unless you can demonstrate how NPCs are using different rules I'd rather stick to my experience and people who are experts in the game.

 

[sqzbox1]

There was more than just the one item of maneuvering in my list and you all seem to be just focusing on that. If I can figure out how to do a video I may do that. But in the meantime, how about the others? Take rails for example. A fixed weapon. Very difficult to keep a ship in the target zone for the requisite amount of time - which is huge by the way. They only have to slip a little out of the target and boom - you are back to the start of the count. Yet NPC's can keep you in their sights easily even when you ziggity-zag all over the place with my God-level thrusters - never losing lock and scoring a hit every time. You can't tell me that is bad piloting. It actually should be very easy to avoid the rails once you realise your enemy has them.

Anyway - whatever. Like I said - was just communicating my feelings about the matter in the general discussion - not looking for copping flack at a personal level about the lack or otherwise of my flying.

Rock on dude - I'm outahere.

 

[Raino]

Take rails for example. A fixed weapon. Very difficult to keep a ship in the target zone for the requisite amount of time - which is huge by the way.

Dont try to keep target in zone all time, make it end up there at the right moment...

 

[Frenotx]

I don't remember it that way.

Gameplay - as high-speed jousting and combat by appointment isn't fun for many players.

See post by Mike Evans, Designer, here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...ics-are-super-unrealistic.237136/post-3656222

Depressing to see all those Dev quoted taking about how lower speeds led to more exciting and fun fights, and how as speeds rose, fights devolved into jousting demolition derbys. They knew what was important about their flight model then... what happened? I don't understand what happened at frontier that caused all of their balancing paradigms to shift so violently, and (in my opinion) for the worse?

 

[Frenotx]

There was more than just the one item of maneuvering in my list and you all seem to be just focusing on that. If I can figure out how to do a video I may do that. But in the meantime, how about the others? Take rails for example. A fixed weapon. Very difficult to keep a ship in the target zone for the requisite amount of time - which is huge by the way. They only have to slip a little out of the target and boom - you are back to the start of the count. Yet NPC's can keep you in their sights easily even when you ziggity-zag all over the place with my God-level thrusters - never losing lock and scoring a hit every time. You can't tell me that is bad piloting. It actually should be very easy to avoid the rails once you realise your enemy has them.

Anyway - whatever. Like I said - was just communicating my feelings about the matter in the general discussion - not looking for copping flack at a personal level about the lack or otherwise of my flying.

Rock on dude - I'm outahere.

You don't need to keep your target under your crosshair for the full charge cycle of the rail guns- just the last bit where it actually fires. With practice, you can learn to start charging the rails while you're still sweeping your crosshair onto the target, such that the rails fire as soon as you're finished aiming. As stated it takes practice, but once you get a feel for it the charge time will feel far less concerning.

 

[babelfisch]

There was more than just the one item of maneuvering in my list and you all seem to be just focusing on that. If I can figure out how to do a video I may do that. But in the meantime, how about the others? Take rails for example. A fixed weapon. Very difficult to keep a ship in the target zone for the requisite amount of time - which is huge by the way. They only have to slip a little out of the target and boom - you are back to the start of the count. Yet NPC's can keep you in their sights easily even when you ziggity-zag all over the place with my God-level thrusters - never losing lock and scoring a hit every time. You can't tell me that is bad piloting. It actually should be very easy to avoid the rails once you realise your enemy has them.

While I agree that NPCs are too accurate with rails (especially when you are in your SRV...), I often manage to dodge them. Anyway, this isn't a case of different rules for players and NPCs, you can program AI to never miss a shot if you want without changing the performance of their ship. As AI developer you would start with 100% accuracy and then add an error margin based on rank, not the other way around. What you are seeing are not different rules for players and NPCs but just software at what it's doing best, being accurate.

Anyway - whatever. Like I said - was just communicating my feelings about the matter in the general discussion - not looking for copping flack at a personal level about the lack or otherwise of my flying.

Rock on dude - I'm outahere.

If you post your opinion on an open discussion platform you should expect people to disagree. Especially when your points are based on personal experience rather than facts. When someone says that your issues result from less than optimal piloting that's not a personal offence but just a logical counter argument considering your points are based on your personal experience.

You said that we ignored the other points on your list, so I'll address the Cutter argument. You said that your FAS should be way faster than a NPC Cutter, a quick look at coriolis tells me that the base speed for a Cutter is 200 and 210 for the FAS. So I am not surprised that you aren't much faster than them. If it's true that NPCs cheat with speed, I guess there would be some documentation on it after so many years. And yet I don't find a video showing NPCs going faster than they should. I would also expect that way more people notice that behaviour, so far you are the only one.

 

[Craith]

in my experience the main thing the NPCs have with rails is trigger discipline - if they will miss, they release the trigger without firing. They still miss from time to time against smaller ships, but a FAS is already quite big - hard to miss it. An Eagle can have a cobra shoot its rails above and below your ship if you rotate (NPCs don't check if the hardpoint is on target, only if their virtual crosshair is (or on the predicted leading point - which makes them miss more than a good human shot with projectile weapons against anything not flying in a straight line)

 

[Tromador]

The trick was to hit F7 (TAB in FFE) to turn your engines off, so your ship wouldn't continually accelerate trying to achieve the set speed. Then it was just learning to dab your various thrusters effectively. I never got good at that, but could survive most encounters with save game spamming.

Oh, I did fine by simply using autopilot to get me on a rough trajectory towards the target, disable autopilot, shoot it a lot, whizz past, then re-engage autopilot for further passes as required. It wasn't elegant, but it worked. I prefer the E : D solution by far.

 

[Tromador]

a quick look at coriolis tells me that the base speed for a Cutter is 200 and 210 for the FAS. So I am not surprised that you aren't much faster than them.

With base speed that close, the cutter can be faster if it has a more speed favourable loadout. Also, top ranked NPCs can have engineered modules too, no? That could easily push a cutter past a fas if it is better engineered. Seems well within the realms of reason that the fas ends up the slower vessel.

 

[Maolagin]

The speed limit is there for the same reason our lasers have a range of 3km.
To enable close range combat.

Yes its unrealistic. But its a prerequisit for a game with entertaining combat.

Have you ever played KSP? Done a orbital rendezvous? With realistic physics it takes a highly sophisticated, well planned maneuver that takes ages just to get the target in visual range. That has a certain entertainment value on its own, but its unfit for a combat game (and KSP has time acceleration).

I've tried space combat games with realistic physics. Its terrible. Wouldn't recommend.

There are, in fact, people doing combat in KSP. Since it's a single player game, it usually works by exchanging save files with the rule that you have so much in-game time to stage an attack on your opponent's ship. It's quite difficult! Never mind that you only get so many attempts, since it might take minutes to hours to arrange a window to launch ordinance that will intercept the enemy. Even with guided munitions capable of course correction, it takes great precision to score a hit that destroys a vital component (that will be heavily obscured by defensive panels, decoy tanks, and whatnot) at a relative velocity of many km/s.

 

[Morbad]

Yet NPC's can keep you in their sights easily even when you ziggity-zag all over the place with my God-level thrusters - never losing lock and scoring a hit every time. You can't tell me that is bad piloting.

Well, I can, but I don't expect you to believe it.

I'm not sure what sort of angular velocity you think you're achieving relative to your target, but it's probably not faster, in most cases, than most ships ship can pitch/roll/and yaw to follow, especially when competent thruster use can easily keep velocity in the blue zone while moving away from you.

While I agree that NPCs are too accurate with rails (especially when you are in your SRV...), I often manage to dodge them. Anyway, this isn't a case of different rules for players and NPCs, you can program AI to never miss a shot if you want without changing the performance of their ship. As AI developer you would start with 100% accuracy and then add an error margin based on rank, not the other way around. What you are seeing are not different rules for players and NPCs but just software at what it's doing best, being accurate.

High rank NPCs are pretty accurate with rails, but are still out done in this regard by top CMDR railgunners. They've simulated plenty of inaccuracy, else they'd never miss.

 

[Vingtetun]

To do with not turning you into jam.
The limit in your speed is to help prevent physics turning you into flying mince. Even augmented and wearing a high tech flight suit, sudden stops and high G maneuvers would be very swiftly fatal.

There is a limiter built in to the ship to prevent you constantly accelerating until you reach speeds where an impact or sudden change in vector would be very bad for your circulation, skeleton, organs and other squidgy bits.

Similar to the retro thrusters, or lateral thrusters. Bad news if they were too powerful. Seat belt would act like cheese wire.

See the Expanse for reference.