I think you're confusing TRAVEL with EXPLORATION

Personally I like the long distances and travel times. It gives going to remote places across the galaxy seem like an epic journey that needs planning and patience. Indeed I would love to see more resource planning added, like food and water supplied on your ship.

Or course I would like to know there are things out in the black worth finding, beyond what we know already. Things no-one has seen before. Evidence of other past civilisations. Secret colonisation attempts that have been covered up (think Guardians and Exodus respectively). Strange artificial structures with no clues to there origins. Wrecks of old ships with rare technology.

Being able to cross the galaxy quickly would make it seem very small to me, and lose its magic and excitement.


That said.

Having done DW2, and lots of further exploration on the way home, taking in the core again and the Colonia region, on a trip lasting most of last year, I can understand why others might hate this. It is, despite my rosey, adventurous description on exploration, a drag and a grind often. And for those will less time to play, this could be frustrating. I can fully understand that there will be a full range of views and they are all valid.

For me today, I am happy with those distances and times. I would not want jump ranges to get any longer, outside of say some of that afore mentioned rare technology, but I would not want something that to be 'regular gameplay'. Maybe even have such rare things unique, for the lucky explorer who recovers them.

So I hope the distances stay long.

As for what exploration is? I agree much of it is travelling. But I see exploration as travelling with a purpose. Going somewhere to look for something, or to map an regions of space, or to find things. Travelling is moving from this distant outpost to the next distant outpost as quickly as possible. Exploration is spotting something in the star scape, on the way and changing course to go see what it is.
 
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So I hope the distances stay long.

Australia is 15,201Km away and a ~24hr flight with a stop over

Australia is still 15,201Km away but would take 153 hours or ~6 days in a car to drive there (without stopping, and of course a ferry across the shortest bits of sea)

Australia is sill 15,201Km away but would take 56 days to sail there (without stopping & weather dependent)

Australia is still 15,201Km away but took this guy 5 years 3 months and one day to walk there.


point is; regardless of how you get there its still 15,201Km away even if you teleport there in 2 seconds, no-one enjoys sitting in a metal tube for 24hrs much like no-one enjoys jump honking 65kly, otherwise you would have a stock E class FSD or walk to Australia like the other millions of people who walk there each year... oh wait.... they dont.

and the best thing about it is... you wouldn't even have to fit this "optional" device
 
Ah, yes. Over the years, this question has repeatedly come up in the exploration subforum, especially when it was more active. Somebody would also inevitably say that "real explorers do X", at which point the drinking game is invoked. The reason for this? Many people have their own definitions of what exploration is, which often conflicts with what others think.

Personally, my favourite definition is that exploration is finding new, unknown things. One can explore the bubble too - it's how the hand-crafted content like the generation ships were found, after all. But the majority of the time, exploration is intertwined with travel, because it involves more than one jump. Now, unless you exclusively travel via systems already discovered (most notably, Spansh's neutron star plotter), you aren't finding anything new, so you aren't exploring. However, even then you'll probably jump into some unexplored systems when refuelling, so your activity until you get to where you want will be something like 95% travel, 5% exploration.

Unfortunately, the gameplay mechanics of interstellar travel in ED are very simple, and as boring as it gets. Rather than adding alternatives (for example, a second way of travel that enables you to jump much farther, but involving active gameplay and elements of risk), Frontier have only been addressing this by slapping on band-aids from time to time, by increasing jump ranges - so that people have to travel less to get to their destinations.
The casualty of this? Navigating sparse areas. Back when top jump ranges were about 35-40 ly, that was a nice challenge, especially when synthesized FSD boosts came in. But after that, when jump ranges went to 50 ly, the plotter could take you through almost everywhere: with today's ranges of 65-80 ly, even finding your own way(!) through the wide parts of the Southern inter-arm void is fairly easy.

So that's that, navigation is no longer a challenge as well, unless you deliberately choose to go with lower jump ranges. The core issue are the (non-)mechanics of interstellar travel anyway, and travelling will remain the same until Frontier finally chooses to address them.

However, looking at the EDSM data, maps and such, you might notice that even among the niche gameplay activity that is exploration, explorers going out into the deep galaxy to unknown destinations is just a small niche. Most of the time, players choose a known destination, and explore while they are on their way there. Once they reach their sightseeing destination, maybe they hang around a bit, then move on elsewhere.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, wanting to see what others have found already, and hopefully finding something interesting along the way. (Note: pretty much every EDSM expedition ever was like this.) But if one's definition of exploration is narrow enough to say that this isn't exploring, well, there aren't a lot of people exploring then.
 
I think the real issue is that exploration is not challenging or really that engaging. It's very repetitive, tedious, and there's not actually that much of interest to be discovered out there. The only real challenge and sense of achievement at the moment is distance. Take that away and what do you have left - mere quantity. Yes, there are occasionally some beautiful sights out there, but they are few and far between and most systems look the same. To be frank, it's all very underwhelming.

Exploration should require careful planning and route plotting, difficult decisions about ship loadouts, there should be risks and challenges, and lots and lots of the unknown to encounter. Unfortunately, we don't have that and all the Beyond 3.4 shake-up brought was a couple of dull mini-games for scanning planets.

Maybe atmospheric planets will help make exploration a bit more interesting. And I know that this game attempts to adhere to scientific realism with regard to the galaxy but I think there needs to be the occasional sci-fi phenomenon and other deep space wonders to discover.
 
Exploration is going to the unknown, and making it known. You can do it several ways:
  • Waypoint-following: pick a destination, then explore all the systems enroute to the destination.It has the advantage of combining exploration with sightseeing, since the waypoints are likely to be things others have already discovered and reported as being interesting. Here, the exploration happens during the travelling, between the two ends of the journey.
  • Surveying: travelling as quickly as possible to a specific area, sector or region, then systematic traversing through or across that region, with the goal of exploring as many different stars as possible.
  • Drunkard's Walk - Get yourself out into Unexplored space, then pick a random direction, jump, repeat. Again, travelling and exploration are one and the same, except this time, there is no specific destination or waypoint in mind - The Drunkard's Walk can continue until you've run out of grog.

By definition, doing the Anti-Star-Trek thing - timidly going where lots of other people have gone before - is not exploration. So following the Road to Riches is not exploring. Travelling to and from Sag A, Colonia, Beagle Point, any of the larger or more famous nebulae, the deep-space outposts, or the extreme outermost galactic rim are also not "exploring", since those places (and most of the volumes of space around those places, and the lines connecting those places with Sol) are already thoroughly explored.

With ED, there is of course a problem with the "making it known" aspect, since exploration results are considered secret, rather than shared - which is why third-party sites like EDSM are a great help, adding to the feeling that slowly, slowly, the unknown is being made known.
 
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I think the real issue is that exploration is not challenging or really that engaging. It's very repetitive, tedious, and there's not actually that much of interest to be discovered out there. The only real challenge and sense of achievement at the moment is distance. Take that away and what do you have left - mere quantity. Yes, there are occasionally some beautiful sights out there, but they are few and far between and most systems look the same. To be frank, it's all very underwhelming.

Exploration should require careful planning and route plotting, difficult decisions about ship loadouts, there should be risks and challenges, and lots and lots of the unknown to encounter. Unfortunately, we don't have that and all the Beyond 3.4 shake-up brought was a couple of dull mini-games for scanning planets.

Maybe atmospheric planets will help make exploration a bit more interesting. And I know that this game attempts to adhere to scientific realism with regard to the galaxy but I think there needs to be the occasional sci-fi phenomenon and other deep space wonders to discover.

i just dont see a compelling argument around "its the only challenge left" as all of what you mention have already been stripped from the game already;

  • Careful planning - Route plotter direct to beagle point - Check
  • Difficult decisions on ship loadouts - all ships can explore and a corvette can crack out 44LY and every ship can get to semotus beacon without much thought
  • lots and lots of the unknown - All systems and stars were mapped from day one, we all knew where we was going regardless how basic the map / plotter was
  • Challenge - its a question of time, do you have time to move the left analogue stick a little and press Y ~500 times over ~24 hours game time without going insane?
  • Challenge # 2 - you drop in the same location time and time again, the same distance and orientation to the star, binary's are not dangerous, neutrons are not dangerous because its only through your own stupidity or lack of concentrating through boring repetitive game play you can become damaged, and even then the damage is trivial

the distance isnt a challenge at all, its a loading screen all the way to the other side of the galaxy, best completed while watching netflix, there are a handful of systems out there with something in, the problem is they take 120 clicks of Y and 120 loading screens to get there with a 0.000000001% chance to find something new, if there was a way to click Y on the FSD and take my ship to another sector through some form of mini game introducing damage potential and risk then Great!

and if not even changing the denominator of allowable distance to travel will not change any of the above, other than improve travel time and enjoyment by removing repetitive actions, i dont see the downside, you can always fit and E-class and travel to the edge with an E-Class FSD for a challenge like many already gain triple elite in sidewinders for kudos.
 
and if not even changing the denominator of allowable distance to travel will not change any of the above, other than improve travel time and enjoyment by removing repetitive actions, i dont see the downside, you can always fit and E-class and travel to the edge with an E-Class FSD for a challenge like many already gain triple elite in sidewinders for kudos.
Taking passenger missions to Colonia would be the new void opal mining.
 
Some of those Long Jump builds are specifically to reach hard-to-reach places. I get that. I don't automatically equate long jump with exploration though.
As an Explorer myself (I left on 3.3 patch day for the rim of the galaxy and now almost 60 weeks later, I'm within plotting range of Beagle Point (still 600+ jumps), in a Beluga that hits a max of 45 ly per jump.

For me, it's all about seeing as much as I can, scanning and mapping and charting as much as I can, and of course, selling that data for as much as I can.

It's also been about not being in the bubble during patches, because things always go sideways, so being further away means suffering from fewer issues. It also gives me something to do while waiting for the actual content portions of the latest updates.

But the Exploration portion of all this - the extreme distance to places no one has ever wanted to go, there's an appeal in that that is hard to explain.
 
I will be tempted to take a FC out to some remote location in the Galaxy and leave it there for myself and others to dock at and explore the local area at leisure.

Trouble is, I see everyone else doing the same. So the Galaxy will be littered with FCs, accomodating "travellers wishing to explore."
 
I just really hope that Fleet Carriers (Exploration type apparently 500LY jump) will fill that gap and move between sectors (apart anything else that they are supposed to offer) :|
 
I will be tempted to take a FC out to some remote location in the Galaxy and leave it there for myself and others to dock at and explore the local area at leisure.

Trouble is, I see everyone else doing the same. So the Galaxy will be littered with FCs, accomodating "travellers wishing to explore."

heh.. exactly :)
 
I will be tempted to take a FC out to some remote location in the Galaxy and leave it there for myself and others to dock at and explore the local area at leisure.

Trouble is, I see everyone else doing the same. So the Galaxy will be littered with FCs, accomodating "travellers wishing to explore."

ofc many will do the same, but I'm not sure how you will be able to find other commander's FC through the galaxy map, or at all, and make a course there for landing.

My fleet carrier will escort me at some distance, if fueling it won't be too tedious.
 
I hope my alt will be able to buy a FC in the not too distant future, then move it to an 'interesting' spot to do some sightseeing from, assuming the FC has the 'outfitting' as indicated in the announcement it should be quite fun!
 
Australia is 15,201Km away and a ~24hr flight with a stop over

Australia is still 15,201Km away but would take 153 hours or ~6 days in a car to drive there (without stopping, and of course a ferry across the shortest bits of sea)

Australia is sill 15,201Km away but would take 56 days to sail there (without stopping & weather dependent)

Australia is still 15,201Km away but took this guy 5 years 3 months and one day to walk there.


point is; regardless of how you get there its still 15,201Km away even if you teleport there in 2 seconds, no-one enjoys sitting in a metal tube for 24hrs much like no-one enjoys jump honking 65kly, otherwise you would have a stock E class FSD or walk to Australia like the other millions of people who walk there each year... oh wait.... they dont.

and the best thing about it is... you wouldn't even have to fit this "optional" device

As I said, opinions will vary, and they are all valid. In this case it is the perception of great distance I would not want to lose. Doing a standard MMO quick travel destroys that sense of great distance. I love that there are few shortcuts in Elite. But accept that others will see that as wasted time and grind.
 
But for me exploration is to SEE places, not to spend ages getting there. For that I require far, and I mean FAR jumping ship. Many of you say having such a ship will kill exploration.

In what way exactly?

It will make being in "deep space" exactly the same as being in your house backyard. Actually, it would fit the entire galaxy in your backyard.

I know that some people just want take screenshots and the rest of the game is just a hassle, but some of us actually play by the premise you're travelling through space, and space is big and vast and empty and inospitable.

If space is big and vast and inospitable, some places will be far away and take long to get there. And most importantly, take long to get back, which makes the journey more perilous and require different outfitting choices, you'll also get a feeling of isolation and dread due to being completely cutoff from the rest of civilization.

If suddenly we can warp across the entire galaxy and back on a whim, all of that is lost. I understand that some people don't care about any of this and just want their screenshot generator, but some of us actually do care about space feeling like space.
 
Askavir, I agree. For me one of the reasons of doing exploration is that feeling of remoteness, you are on your own, even with player orgs like Fuel Rats and such you still are quite much on your own there. Mess up, and its over. That fast travel thing would just ruin that experience.
 
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