Polarbears

[NZFanatic]

My worry here is that since Frontier already halved the space (and given their response to the issue, they did it reluctantly), we won't see any more reduction. I totally agree with all points raised about the game's consistency on this matter, and others (I'm still super perturbed about the Canis lupus/Canis lupus arctos thing, and someone pointed out to me on YouTube that the West African lion actually has the scientific name of the Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo) which is also infuriating and an embarrassing oversight).

Look, as much as I love the game, I think it's clear Frontier's "research" has really been extremely lackluster. They can't seem to decide between whether they want things realistic or fantastical, in line with how zoos are, or in line with how they think zoos should be, or even something as simple as whether to use a species scientific binomial or a subspecies trinomial. Whether they just have terrible communication skills within their team or their bosses keep changing their minds, the game is seriously suffering for it.

 

[Jacob1989]

My worry here is that since Frontier already halved the space (and given their response to the issue, they did it reluctantly), we won't see any more reduction. I totally agree with all points raised about the game's consistency on this matter, and others (I'm still super perturbed about the Canis lupus/Canis lupus arctos thing, and someone pointed out to me on YouTube that the West African lion actually has the scientific name of the Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo) which is also infuriating and an embarrassing oversight).

Look, as much as I love the game, I think it's clear Frontier's "research" has really been extremely lackluster. They can't seem to decide between whether they want things realistic or fantastical, in line with how zoos are, or in line with how they think zoos should be, or even something as simple as whether to use a species scientific binomial or a subspecies trinomial. Whether they just have terrible communication skills within their team or their bosses keep changing their minds, the game is seriously suffering for it.

What's sad about all this is it is actually very easy to fix. It'd take them only a few minutes to change a few words and figures.

 

[deinonychus110]

My worry here is that since Frontier already halved the space (and given their response to the issue, they did it reluctantly), we won't see any more reduction. I totally agree with all points raised about the game's consistency on this matter, and others (I'm still super perturbed about the Canis lupus/Canis lupus arctos thing, and someone pointed out to me on YouTube that the West African lion actually has the scientific name of the Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo) which is also infuriating and an embarrassing oversight).

Look, as much as I love the game, I think it's clear Frontier's "research" has really been extremely lackluster. They can't seem to decide between whether they want things realistic or fantastical, in line with how zoos are, or in line with how they think zoos should be, or even something as simple as whether to use a species scientific binomial or a subspecies trinomial. Whether they just have terrible communication skills within their team or their bosses keep changing their minds, the game is seriously suffering for it.

Because the Barbary lion and West African lion are part of the exact same subspecies, Panthera leo leo, aka the northern lion.

 

[Jacob1989]

Because the Barbary lion and West African lion are part of the exact same subspecies, Panthera leo leo, aka the northern lion.

True, senegalensis was recently merged into leo. They at least got the lions right, even though tigers still use the old taxonomy in the game.

 

[deinonychus110]

True, senegalensis was recently merged into leo. They at least got the lions right, even though tigers still use the old taxonomy in the game.

That was just a way to excuse them adding the Siberian tiger. But if they really needed 2 tigers, I'd choose Sumatran above Bengal. That is at least a separate subspecies (Sumatran - Panthera tigris sondaica, aka Sunda Island tiger while Siberians are considered as the mainland Asian tiger, Panthera tigris tigris). Also, good contrast between largest and smallest tigers

 

[Jacob1989]

That was just a way to excuse them adding the Siberian tiger. But if they really needed 2 tigers, I'd choose Sumatran above Bengal. That is at least a separate subspecies (Sumatran - Panthera tigris sondaica, aka Sunda Island tiger while Siberians are considered as the mainland Asian tiger, Panthera tigris tigris). Also, good contrast between largest and smallest tigers

I agree, that would be a good contrast. They might still add it in some future DLC. However I'd still change the trinomial name for the siberian tiger. Populations are as significant to conservation as subspecies, so I don't see a reason to use the wrong scientific name for an animal.

 

[NZFanatic]

Because the Barbary lion and West African lion are part of the exact same subspecies, Panthera leo leo, aka the northern lion.

Oh somehow I missed that bit of information. Good call. Still doesn't excuse the wolves though - I mean I raise this point all the time but we currently have the Arctic wolf in the game twice, technically, which goes further to show their inconsistency.

As for the lions, the problem now is whether or not they intended on using the specific West African subpopulation or whether it was intended to be the northern subspecies as a whole. Given that the northern subspecies also includes the Asiatic lion, some clarification from Frontier on this would be nice (unless it's already in the Zoopedia - to be honest the information in the Zoopedia is relatively basic so I don't often read it).

That was just a way to excuse them adding the Siberian tiger. But if they really needed 2 tigers, I'd choose Sumatran above Bengal. That is at least a separate subspecies (Sumatran - Panthera tigris sondaica, aka Sunda Island tiger while Siberians are considered as the mainland Asian tiger, Panthera tigris tigris). Also, good contrast between largest and smallest tigers

I agree, I'd rather have the Sumatran than the Bengal (I've literally never seen a Bengal tiger, and I've been to a huge number of zoos - everywhere seems to have the Sumatran, Siberian, or Malayan. I guess the white tigers that were at Singapore Zoo count). However, there is still some debate in the scientific community about tiger specifications, so there's no real consensus. I usually support the useage of the most current information, but even then when it comes to tigers it's still up in the air.

Additionally, the morphological differences in the tiger subpopulations are distinctive enough to warrant separate inclusion in-game regardless of classification (I mean, if they absolutely had to include both tigers). The Siberian is typically larger, often darker (or is it lighter?) in colour, and definitely has a thicker coat adapted to the climate of the Amur region. It wouldn't sit well with me if they just included a basic 'mainland tiger' that included the Siberian.

I think these issues need to be brought higher, though.

 

[Villa11]

This has nothing do do with polar bears, but I just want to clear some things up .

Because the Barbary lion and West African lion are part of the exact same subspecies, Panthera leo leo, aka the northern lion.

True, senegalensis was recently merged into leo. They at least got the lions right, even though tigers still use the old taxonomy in the game.

As for the lions, the problem now is whether or not they intended on using the specific West African subpopulation or whether it was intended to be the northern subspecies as a whole. Given that the northern subspecies also includes the Asiatic lion, some clarification from Frontier on this would be nice (unless it's already in the Zoopedia - to be honest the information in the Zoopedia is relatively basic so I don't often read it).

There is still debate on the taxonomy of lions, IUCN recognises 2 subspecies, the African one (Panthera leo leo) and the Asian one (Panthera leo persica). They do note that a revision is necessary (likely a change to the Northern lion (P. l. leo ) and Southern lion (P. l. melanochaita) ) and a new bigger study; using more genes; is being conducted.
However, Mammal species of the world still lists 11 subspecies, including P.l.leo as the West African lion (incl. Barbary lion)

As you can see, the scientific name P.l.leo is used in 3 different ways. I think Frontier got confused and they used the Mammal species of the world P.l.leo (West African lion) but used the geographical range of P.l.leo from IUCN (African lion); both do not include the Asian lion.

That was just a way to excuse them adding the Siberian tiger. But if they really needed 2 tigers

Just like the lion, the classification of tigers is under debate. Mammal species of the world recognizes 8 (the Malayan tiger is not listed as a separate subspecies), the IUCN 9. And again IUCN says this is under debate, with more recent studies indicating only 2 subspecies: The mainland (Panthera tigris tigris) and Island one (Panthera tigris sondaica ). Frontier is not in the wrong here, as the 2 subspecies model is not yet accepted.

so I don't see a reason to use the wrong scientific name for an animal.

As you can see, there is not a clear right or wrong here for the moment as there is no consensus.

To come back to the issue discussed in this topic, the polar bears, I agree that the minimum space requirements should come down more (it's a minimum, if you want to give them more space you still can) .I did post some sizes used in real life zoos a while back and these numbers are the total size of the exhibit including water area, additionally I would like to add to this that some facilities house more than just 1 couple (1 male, 1 female) of polar bears.either in a single sex group (litter mates usually) or even in mixed sex groups (more females),.

 

[NZFanatic]

I think I'd be happier with the polar bears if turning off welfare actually worked. Right now, turning off welfare only appears to be cosmetic - every sub-category is still in the red and protestors still come and hassle the zoo. I imagine it's difficult to truly turn it off, because you still want to run a zoo (which means the food/drink/enrichment needs still need to decay at least in concept), but at least letting us shut down space requirements so we can build realistic zoos shouldn't be too much of a problem.

It's not just polar bears. The Nile monitor and Komodo dragon also require a stupid amount of space completely out of line with any real-world zoo.

 

[Jacob1989]

This has nothing do do with polar bears, but I just want to clear some things up .

There is still debate on the taxonomy of lions, IUCN recognises 2 subspecies, the African one (Panthera leo leo) and the Asian one (Panthera leo persica). They do note that a revision is necessary (likely a change to the Northern lion (P. l. leo ) and Southern lion (P. l. melanochaita) ) and a new bigger study; using more genes; is being conducted.
However, Mammal species of the world still lists 11 subspecies, including P.l.leo as the West African lion (incl. Barbary lion)

As you can see, the scientific name P.l.leo is used in 3 different ways. I think Frontier got confused and they used the Mammal species of the world P.l.leo (West African lion) but used the geographical range of P.l.leo from IUCN (African lion); both do not include the Asian lion.


Just like the lion, the classification of tigers is under debate. Mammal species of the world recognizes 8 (the Malayan tiger is not listed as a separate subspecies), the IUCN 9. And again IUCN says this is under debate, with more recent studies indicating only 2 subspecies: The mainland (Panthera tigris tigris) and Island one (Panthera tigris sondaica ). Frontier is not in the wrong here, as the 2 subspecies model is not yet accepted.


As you can see, there is not a clear right or wrong here for the moment as there is no consensus.

To come back to the issue discussed in this topic, the polar bears, I agree that the minimum space requirements should come down more (it's a minimum, if you want to give them more space you still can) .I did post some sizes used in real life zoos a while back and these numbers are the total size of the exhibit including water area, additionally I would like to add to this that some facilities house more than just 1 couple (1 male, 1 female) of polar bears.either in a single sex group (litter mates usually) or even in mixed sex groups (more females),.

I do want to add the game does not use the range for the northern lion, it is the range map for the southern lion. That makes me think the decision to use P. t. altaica and P. l. leo wasn't a very cognitive process.

As long as they keep the taxonomy up to date in the coming years I'm ok with it, but if not, I'd rather have them use P. t. tigris for the siberian tiger since the more recent studies suggest two or three subspecies contesting the traditional 8-9.

Anyway, to bring the thread back into topic, I'd love to see the polar bear requirements halved again once more or twice so it does make sense when compared to other space hungry animals we have in the game.

It's not just polar bears. The Nile monitor and Komodo dragon also require a stupid amount of space completely out of line with any real-world zoo.

Totally agree.

 

[paul78]

I did find a post from Utica zoo stating it cost them 14,000 a year to feed their lions. They said they feed them 4-7 lbs a day depending on male or female(which seems a little low)weird because my local zoo gives tigers 10 lbs a day. I don’t know how many lions Utica zoo has? They said lions but I guess it could mean for one or two or more I guess but lions made me think more than 1.

 

[paul78]

Whoops posted in wrong area meant for high food costs in planet zoo. Sorry

 

[DrBurrito]

Although this is out of topic, there has been some talk on how the IUCN recognizes tigers and lions, therefore I wanted to make a small correction:

The latest revision by IUCN Cat Specialist Group's Cat Classification Task Force recognizes two subspecies of lion (P. leo leo and P. leo melanochaita) and two subspecies of tiger (P. tigris tigris and P. tigris sondaica), instead of the mentioned P. leo persica and the 9 subspecies of tiger.

Although I didn't check, their public website might still use the old classification delaying an update due to conservation concerns or lack of a new action plan.

 

[Villa11]

Although this is out of topic, there has been some talk on how the IUCN recognizes tigers and lions, therefore I wanted to make a small correction:

The latest revision by IUCN Cat Specialist Group's Cat Classification Task Force recognizes two subspecies of lion (P. leo leo and P. leo melanochaita) and two subspecies of tiger (P. tigris tigris and P. tigris sondaica), instead of the mentioned P. leo persica and the 9 subspecies of tiger.

Although I didn't check, their public website might still use the old classification delaying an update due to conservation concerns or lack of a new action plan.

Yes, i read through the revision as well. I checked the CatSG website: for lions they do say the P.l.leo and P. l. melanochaita are accepted, wheras for tigers they still list the old 9 subspecies and propose the 2 subspecies P. tigris tigris and P. tigris sondaica.

 

[horse14t]

I hate how polar bears need huge habitats, but the animal's AI isn't meant to use so much space with just one or two animals. Case in point I made a massive lake for my polar bears to swim in, however they NEVER use it so I get stupid things like this...

And here's the full habitat:

And here's how well it meets the space needs for 4 polar bears (2 adults, 2 cubs):

And I already worked far to hard on this thing... Isn't even finished yet and I don't want to mess with it further honestly without having to bull dose the entire thing...

 

[DrBurrito]

I hate how polar bears need huge habitats, but the animal's AI isn't meant to use so much space with just one or two animals. Case in point I made a massive lake for my polar bears to swim in, however they NEVER use it so I get stupid things like this...

And here's the full habitat:

And here's how well it meets the space needs for 4 polar bears (2 adults, 2 cubs):

And I already worked far to hard on this thing... Isn't even finished yet and I don't want to mess with it further honestly without having to bull dose the entire thing...

Looks neat! I'd upload it to the workshop if I were you. Don't even think about bulldozing it

That being said, I totally see your pain.

 

[horse14t]

Looks neat! I'd upload it to the workshop if I were you. Don't even think about bulldozing it

That being said, I totally get see your pain.

Thank you

I think I'll upload it once it's done. Haven't even touched the little extension behind the den yet.
I find myself still tweaking it even though my guests hate it

 

[DrBurrito]

Thank you

I think I'll upload it once it's done. Haven't even touched the little extension behind the den yet.
I find myself still tweaking it even though my guests hate it

I'd add some trees to a section of the enclosure if I were you, possibly the area behind the den. It would be a better representation of the wide range of habitats polar bears live in.

 

[horse14t]

I'd add some trees to a section of the enclosure if I were you, possibly the area behind the den. It would be a better representation of the wide range of habitats polar bears live in.

I would but Arctic animals don't like trees
However I did make a bunch of fake ones for my wolves
All of them are on the shop too.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1988065325

 

[DrBurrito]

I would but Arctic animals don't like trees
However I did make a bunch of fake ones for my wolves
All of them are on the shop too.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1988065325

We recently got confirmation that is going to be fixed. Just use the tundra biome and North America filters (and Europe and Asia for the polar bear) for Arctic animals. A few unsuitable foliage doesn't take off that much from welfare anyway. Nice looking fake trees though!