I agree 100% with Drew here

[Valorin]

Sticking too closely to it never works. Movie tie ins where the IP is strictly controlled are usually absolute stinkers for example, except JWE obviously which is a brilliant game. The opposite is true as well movies based on games also tend to suck.

Different forms of media need a different approach.

Well, in my opinion Elite would have needed a different approach.
Like just saying "it's a gameplay feature" instead of introducing the telepresence and 3D printing fighters things.
Also, why not use the lore to, for example, deepen the whole Thargoid affair. Would also make for some more interesting interactions with them. There is a lot of lore around them.

Also, strict lore doesn't mean you can't introduce new things. Of course there can be new tech, but when you introduce it, you take care it doesn't break the whole game world in half, lore-wise.

 

[Stigbob]

Well, in my opinion Elite would have needed a different approach.
Like just saying "it's a gameplay feature" instead of introducing the telepresence and 3D printing fighters things.
Also, why not use the lore to, for example, deepen the whole Thargoid affair. Would also make for some more interesting interactions with them. There is a lot of lore around them.

Also, strict lore doesn't mean you can't introduce new things. Of course there can be new tech, but when you introduce it, you take care it doesn't break the whole game world in half, lore-wise.

I'm OK with printed fighters and telepresence, doesn't bother me any more than lasers with a 3km range.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

Well, in my opinion Elite would have needed a different approach.
Like just saying "it's a gameplay feature" instead of introducing the telepresence and 3D printing fighters things.
Also, why not use the lore to, for example, deepen the whole Thargoid affair. Would also make for some more interesting interactions with them. There is a lot of lore around them.

Also, strict lore doesn't mean you can't introduce new things. Of course there can be new tech, but when you introduce it, you take care it doesn't break the whole game world in half, lore-wise.

There's nothing wrong at base with a bit of retcon-ing. Marvel have been at it for decades.

I agree it would be nice if it didn't break original lore. Maybe bent it a bit. That said sometimes a new and better way of doing things, or looking at things comes along which does not lend itself readily to being shoehorned into existing lore and at that point I'm sorry, but for me at least, retcon wins.

I too would like to see more of a story-driven narrative, certainly in some areas of the game-world, but truly, it's a big ask. Frontier, I think, got their fingers burned with their initial 'seasons' approach - development setbacks and such, I think, and that in turn had the effect of slamming the brakes on the storylines, such as they were. Looking forward to the so-called New Era content, I've little doubt they'll be rebooting the narrative(s?), but again, the sheer scale of resources necessary to accommodate likely player actions as they respond to the story rather makes me think these storylines will be very bare-bones and probably infrequent.

 

[Old Duck]

, only to recognize that hope is just too frail because Galnet died too and Paige and Adam were only the last who silently went off board.

One of the Adams quit, too?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Video game lore is an entirely temporary and disposable thing [...]

That's an opinion not many share with you Stigbot.

 

[The Lawful]

One of the Adams quit, too?

Silent Exodus. Team 17 Digital now. There goes the BGS.

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/adamwaite

O7,

 

[Old Duck]

Silent Exodus. Team 17 Digital now.

I can't open that site. Which Adam, Adam Barelegs (the one who loves cars) or Adam Number Two?

Frontier also recently lost [sorry, I forget her name], a major contributor to Stellar Forge and other key features in ED. The way they are rotating through people (I joined during Cowboy Space Loach era) is quite concerning.

Brooks's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Lawful]

I can't open that site. Which Adam, Adam Barelegs (the one who loves cars) or Adam Number Two?

Frontier also recently lost [sorry, I forget her name], a major contributor to Stellar Forge and other key features in ED. The way they are rotating through people (I joined during Cowboy Space Loach era) is quite concerning.

Brooks's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Adam Bourke-Waite, the dude who wrote the BGS state machine. And that tattooed controller lady, Sally Morgan-Moore (sorry forgot the name) who did a livestream with Paige left too. Seems brave Will is the official Senior now and will switch off the lights. The core staff seems all be gone. Dont't know what the Loach is actually working on, holidays it seems. https://twitter.com/stripedwormlair

O7,

 

[bitstorm]

I can't open that site. Which Adam, Adam Barelegs (the one who loves cars) or Adam Number Two?

Frontier also recently lost [sorry, I forget her name], a major contributor to Stellar Forge and other key features in ED. The way they are rotating through people (I joined during Cowboy Space Loach era) is quite concerning.

Brooks's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dr Kay Ross.

This one's a big loss IMHO.

Reason for leaving was entirely personal reasons.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229420039620747264

Source: https://twitter.com/drkayross/status/1229420039620747264

 

[2plex]

Sticking too closely to it never works. Movie tie ins where the IP is strictly controlled are usually absolute stinkers for example, except JWE obviously which is a brilliant game.
...

Opinions vary.
To me JW:E is hardly more than animated sandbox clickbait.
I'd prefer any length of Elite lore, even if it comes written on a sheet of toilet paper to that boring look-a-dinosaur screensaver.

 

[M00ka]

To my thinking, sticking to rigidly to Lore can stifle any future expansions or additions to the game. For example, according to Lore there haven't been any new ships designed or released for a couple of hundred years. But suddenly we get a slew of new ships, which does break the Lore that no new ships have been released for centuries so why now and why so many? Or going by Lore, there weren't any Engineers, yet suddenly they not only pop up but have substantial bases and networks between all of them and the ability to contact individual Commanders anywhere in the galaxy.

Guess what I am trying to say is if Lore becomes too entrenched in the game everytime something new comes along someone will jump on here and say it can't happen because Lore won't permit it.

 

[Mengy]

Silent Exodus. Team 17 Digital now. There goes the BGS.

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/adamwaite

O7,

Woah, I had no idea Adam had left Frontier.

 

[Stealthie]

To my thinking, sticking to rigidly to Lore can stifle any future expansions or additions to the game. For example, according to Lore there haven't been any new ships designed or released for a couple of hundred years. But suddenly we get a slew of new ships, which does break the Lore that no new ships have been released for centuries so why now and why so many? Or going by Lore, there weren't any Engineers, yet suddenly they not only pop up but have substantial bases and networks between all of them and the ability to contact individual Commanders anywhere in the galaxy.

Guess what I am trying to say is if Lore becomes too entrenched in the game everytime something new comes along someone will jump on here and say it can't happen because Lore won't permit it.

When applied correctly, lore should be neither a cage to trap creative thinking nor a frivolous trinket to be cast aside at will.
It should instead be simply a compass to direct an author's imagination.

If we look at a franchise like Star Wars, a "fundamentalist" might try to insist that the Emperor doesn't exist, there are no ice-planets in the SW universe and that the Empire flies only Star Destroyers and TIE fighters, the rebels fly X-Wings and Y-Wings and everybody else flies around in Corellian Corvettes and TY1300 Freighters.

Clearly, that's be incredibly narrow-minded thinking.
SW introduces us to The Force and shows us that it's usefulness varies depending on both a person's innate ability and training so it's plausible to assume there might be some kind of "grand wizard" who's learned to harness the power of The Force for his own evil ends.
We know that planets have different climates due to a variety of factors so it's plausuble that humans might choose to live on a whole variety of different planets.
We see the sort of technology incorporated into ships in the SW universe and so other ships, that incorporate similar technology are also plausible.

And then there's the "progressive" extreme...

Ever binge-watched a TV series such as, say, Doctor Who and noticed that he saves the day by doing something and then, a few episodes later, you wonder why he couldn't just do the same thing again in a similar situation?
That is, I'm afraid, just poor writing. The writers are paying no respect to pre-existing lore and they're just making poop up as the go along and then discarding it again afterward.

Which is how, in the new SW, we ended-up with instant hyperspace travel, space Mary-bleedin'-Poppins, hyperspace suicide-ships and Force-healing. Etc.
When that happens it IS jarring because, like in episodes of Doctor Who, we have often seen similar situations before and none of this suddenly-critical stuff has ever happened before.


The trick, with lore, is to expand it in plausible ways rather than fantastical ones while, at the same time, not ignoring it completely.

 

[vidslo]

The trick, with lore, is to expand it in plausible ways rather than fantastical ones while, at the same time, not ignoring it completely.

Not only that, but also not giving up on it...

I started playing around 2016 and had a lot of catching up to do but I was so hooked into the game. The thargoid mystery, finding the crashes, reading through galnet for clues... Those things made me want to keep playing, as well as all the other aspects of the game. Now though, after playing as long as I have, I've amassed this ships I want, and have done the things I've wanted to do, but the spark really isn't there to keep me hooked like I used to be.

It's not surprising of course, but there was a point in this game that I really did feel like things were progressing and unfolding. The thargoids, IMO, had so much potential if the pace of the story unfolded at a more reasonable rate, but once it became clear that thargoid thursdays were just going to be 'the thing' that they introduced, my excitement faded.

There's still so many unanswered questions around them as well. Will we see capital ships, what are the thargoid surface sites, what's the deal with the new variant at Palin's old base? There's countless others that, at the moment, seem to have just been completely dropped.

Yes, yes, I'm sure it's because of 'the new era', but as I've said before, I'm finding it rather perplexing that Fdev would put all their eggs in one basket (new era), with hopes that existing players will ignore 8+ months of 'nothing' story/lore wise leading up to their expansion.

There would be a completely different conversation being had if they hadn't shown us what story/lore can bring to this game, but they did, at least while Drew was around, and it really got players hooked.

Cannon Research Group is one player faction that comes to mind that really built itself on the story/lore of the game, and while I'm not a part of their group, I'd be curious to know where they stand on the current state of galnet and the lore in general.

Edit to add: https://canonn.science/lore/

 

[Shinji Ikari]

IMO lore is important as it sustains verisimilitude in some regards.

 

[Stigbob]

Opinions vary.
To me JW:E is hardly more than animated sandbox clickbait.
I'd prefer any length of Elite lore, even if it comes written on a sheet of toilet paper to that boring look-a-dinosaur screensaver.

That's the thing, they are game developers so they develop games, plural.

ED's not their only product and its lore (for what its worth) is just minor fluff on top of the game itself that isn't more important than an entire separate and successful product line. Its also less important than content for the new FC's/new era which is what the galnet writers are doing now.

 

[Valorin]

I'm OK with printed fighters and telepresence, doesn't bother me any more than lasers with a 3km range.

In terms of gameplay feature I don't care much.
The difference is, that they never stated, the those 3km lasers were a special kind of laser that has restricted range because of some fantastic idea. That's solely gameplay handwavium, and not part of the lore.
Apart from that, telepresence and 3D printing on that level would transform the gameworld completely in terms of how things are handled. Most ships would be drones, especially trading ships. Most conflicts would be fought be drones as well. People wouldn't need to travel much at all actually. If you follow that string you get a whole different setting than the one we have.
3D printing on a spacecraft level would also completely change the economy and the way things are done. And so on... That's what I meant.

If you are okay with the lore explanation, you and me have a completely different take on lore, and you seem to care little for how introduced lore would affect the game's setting. I guess at this point it's not a discussion anymore, but just different opinions on how important it is to us.

 

[Valorin]

That's the thing, they are game developers so they develop games, plural.

ED's not their only product and its lore (for what its worth) is just minor fluff on top of the game itself that isn't more important than an entire separate and successful product line. Its also less important than content for the new FC's/new era which is what the galnet writers are doing now.

The whole Galnet thing is a pity, but that's a restriction from the development side of things. If they need those people elsewhere for other stuff, that's just how it is.
For me it's more about the whole way they use, or not use lore, in the timeline we play in.
I'm a roleplayer and pen and paper gamemaster for about 30 years. When GMing a campaign, and the story evolves, changing lore stuff around completely kills a story's momentum. When roleplaying in a setting, developing a story, gaps in lore pretty much jump you, because things are much more personal and on a storytelling-level when playing pen and paper. I can't really use telepresence much because the player character would use it in a logical way and well, won't do much anymore because they could just use their holo-me impersonation. Your players also ask for details about Thargoids for example, which I then draw from the information I got from the prequels and so on.

I'm not saying, lore for a computer game should be as detailed as in a roleplaying game. That's not really necessary, but it should be consistent enough to not hit a major roadblock when just following the red line. It should also give some information on a major thing in the universe, like the Pilots Federation or the Thargoids.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

In fairness, that started in pre-Alpha when they invented a "Frame Shift Drive" which reduced crossing times for the entire bubble from a couple of months to a couple of hours. None of the bubble social, political or economic structures make any sense packed into a space which is effectively smaller than modern-day Wales. And arguably it started in the original Elite where a quick look at the economics as set out in the lore and game would have shown that piracy was completely implausible. (Which no-one really cared about until it continued being implausible in Elite Dangerous, of course)

At some point there has to be a distinction made between "this will make lore sense" and "this will actually be a playable fun game", and that may well mean that for the game adaptation of the setting decisions are made which are different in the book adaptation of the setting. Fighters and multicrew just wouldn't work in game if you could only have one and if your player pilot had to get on board while docked at the same station as you ... both of those restrictions, on the other hand, make perfect sense to include in a book where, conversely, lots of things like "exactly how much damage does a class 3 plasma accelerator do" and "how fast is a Mamba anyway" can be handwaved to "speed of plot".

Keeping perfect consistency between the two just gives you a bad game and a bad book.


I have no idea how they could possibly have got actual Thargoids - rather than mysterious hints about aliens - to work.

They're supposed to be a serious threat: they should be virtually unbeatable in a fight
Players can go anywhere in the galaxy and do anything: there's no point putting unwinnable fights in the game because players will just avoid them entirely
...and that applies equally to the tactical level of "Player AX Wing 7 is fighting Hydra 366" and the strategic level of "is the bubble on fire yet?"

With hindsight it was probably a mistake to include them at all - an FE2-style setting between Thargoid waves, where they can be a background feature and wreckage of the previous war is available for explorers, would have made more sense.

Doesn't help that with ongoing development the Thargoids not only have to fight in-game but also have to compete out-of-game for artist and AI developer time with everything else that needs adding.


Well, writing is not just necessarily "fluff" - the fleet carrier screen not reading "$##makejumpbutton;" is also the sort of thing the writing and translation teams need to handle (and sure, that's just one entry, but there could be tens of thousands of these things to do for New Era).

As far as previous pauses go, yes and no. Galnet wasn't formally paused during 2016 and 2017 as Horizons development ran into delays, but most of the actual content was "community news" rather than anything Frontier had written. However there were other non-Galnet content sources like regular CGs, or events like the Dangerous Games or the Salome storyline, that meant plot-related Galnet content wasn't the only thing going on.

I agree with some of this but a lot of above could have been avoidable with some planning.

For example multicrew and galaxy wide telepresence.... IF players really want to use their own commander then i see no harm in meeting up ...... Made even easier with ship delivery to a station so you don't get marooned. IF you want some instant MC action well this is why it was a massive mistake to shelve ship's crew like in DDF and make it MP only without NPC's. For an instant session we should not be playing as ourselves imo but as a friend's crew person levelling them up. Cash earned could be given to the helping player but no in game mention of that needs be made.
I can see potential for holding players hostage or complains of cmdrs suiciding for lols with a full crew which is why I actually think using your own player is unnecessary .... But IF players want to take that risk and trust the captain so be it.
The MMO nature of the game being problematic I agree with.... Travel in Frontier and FFE made far more sense..... But sadly MMOs are fashionable these days. It's not my preferred choice but I do get why FD did it but like you hint at... So so many things have been put under the bus / watered down because of it.
I still think in general it is possible to have lore friendly mechanics in a game it just takes a bit more time and thought.

 

[Stigbob]

In terms of gameplay feature I don't care much.
The difference is, that they never stated, the those 3km lasers were a special kind of laser that has restricted range because of some fantastic idea. That's solely gameplay handwavium, and not part of the lore.
Apart from that, telepresence and 3D printing on that level would transform the gameworld completely in terms of how things are handled. Most ships would be drones, especially trading ships. Most conflicts would be fought be drones as well. People wouldn't need to travel much at all actually. If you follow that string you get a whole different setting than the one we have.
3D printing on a spacecraft level would also completely change the economy and the way things are done. And so on... That's what I meant.

If you are okay with the lore explanation, you and me have a completely different take on lore, and you seem to care little for how introduced lore would affect the game's setting. I guess at this point it's not a discussion anymore, but just different opinions on how important it is to us.

Its not that I'm OK with the lore explanation, its more that I'm not bothered about it either way and treat lore as valid while I'm listening to it if I listen to it. Its all gameplay handwavium, the lore as it started was handwavium based on a different game now its changed to fit the current game.

The whole Galnet thing is a pity, but that's a restriction from the development side of things. If they need those people elsewhere for other stuff, that's just how it is.
For me it's more about the whole way they use, or not use lore, in the timeline we play in.
I'm a roleplayer and pen and paper gamemaster for about 30 years. When GMing a campaign, and the story evolves, changing lore stuff around completely kills a story's momentum. When roleplaying in a setting, developing a story, gaps in lore pretty much jump you, because things are much more personal and on a storytelling-level when playing pen and paper. I can't really use telepresence much because the player character would use it in a logical way and well, won't do much anymore because they could just use their holo-me impersonation. Your players also ask for details about Thargoids for example, which I then draw from the information I got from the prequels and so on.

I'm not saying, lore for a computer game should be as detailed as in a roleplaying game. That's not really necessary, but it should be consistent enough to not hit a major roadblock when just following the red line. It should also give some information on a major thing in the universe, like the Pilots Federation or the Thargoids.

I've still got a bag of dice and a load of rule books somewhere but that's a different type of entertainment.

With telepresence that was to allow us to crew up with each other no matter where we are in game right across the galaxy, the alternative would be meet in game first which could take a couple of weeks depending where you are. That wouldn't really work from a fun perspective.

Multicrew isn't that popular since manning turrets is very dull (as it is in every game that features it) but people did ask for it repeatedly so I can see why FDEV did it the telepresence way as that's handwavium to make it possible, it also neatly explains not dying with a disposable SLF.