Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Freedom of choice is great, but it should be fair, with all modes equal. Currently while open is more fun (for me anyway), solo and PG give unfair risk/reward balance - i.e. unequal. In some content I think nobody minds that, but in PP, there are reasonable objections.
The modes are "fair" - all game features respond to PvE actions in any game mode.

That some players enjoy the frisson of PvP is a choice they make, which means that any setbacks they suffer as a result of PvP when engaging in any game feature are down to their choice to engage in an optional aspect of the game.
 
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If a power has slack time, then it means they are already in a superior position no? If you can be destabilized, how do you counter that? By hauling perchance?

Not every power expands each week- its not automatic.

You seem to forget that if a power interferes with that hauling, those plans and stability can't happen. If your power is large and needs to generate CC from hauling and someone stops that, then you are in trouble.

Another example: a prep race can be won by hauling but with open the option exists to kill as many of their haulers to slow them, saving you money and allowing you to take on larger powers.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And you miss the point: by making one pan modal you create an inferior duplicate the BGS that is essentially a V1 CG from 1.1.
Not a CG though - as it affects which power "controls" particular systems, on a weekly basis. It does seem to be a feature that pits eleven Powers (rather than thousands of Factions) against each other - so rather more focused than the BGS.
Going by how many engage with Powerplay its easy to see the majority of people see it as not working within the confines of the game.
Only Frontier know for sure how many engage in Powerplay.
 
Sorry, i thought one of the reasons given for making it open only was because of all the people alledgedly hauling away in PG/solo?

I'm not sure what else you are disagreeing with in relation to what I posted. Sure, some people like doing PvP, but if all they are doing is chasing down cutters, which most of the time will laugh them off (assuming they even meet) then those PvPers aren't really contributing much. Sure, they could go fight the PvPers on the other side, but none of that makes much of a difference to the actual PP merit situation. It just means PP is being used as a reason to PvP, rather than actually doing anything useful.

You do know what a Grom bomb is, right? A max trade Cutter will be minced alive by engineered ships, forcing the other side to either use smaller, faster ships (slowing forting / prep hauling) or have to sacrifice internal cargo space (again, slowing them down).

When in Powerplay you are hauling millions of units in a race, every trick counts.
 
PP and BGS should only be possible in open play. it is very foolish to compete with someone who cannot be seen if he is in a private game. it is still necessary to change the blocking of players. now there are people who have 500+ players blocked and this affects the game instances, it becomes impossible to play normally. it is impossible to play with those people with whom you want, this is a violation of the EULA
 
Powerplay, even as it is now, is all about team work. Not everyone hauls, there are other activities needed for a Power to be successful and anyone who has participated for more than just unlocking modules knows this. You might like it or not but disrupting enemy activities by doing PVP is already part of the game, the issue discussed here is if we want to remove the possibility of escaping said disruptions by switching to Solo.

Not everything is about hauling, but a vast majority is.

I never said anything about liking or not liking PvP in relation to PP. What i was saying is that anyone who is trying to take down haulers when they could be hauling themselves are being ineffective and it would be better if they spent their time hauling.

As I said, if it goes open only, then i presume those haulers who continue to play PP will become skilled at avoiding opposition, flying Cutters, and just waltz past any attempts to stop them. Personally, i don't have access to a Cutter, and i don't like beating attacks through tanking damage. I'd go with the Clipper and laugh at the fat combat ship trying to keep up with me. They can fire as many grom bombs as they like, i'll be out of range before they can even deploy their hardpoints :p

Also, remove the possibility to go solo, those who really don't like it (assuming they don't just quit, in which case, they are a non-factor) can still block or use other methods to ensure they don't meet player opposition.

Look, don't get me wrong, i don't have a stake in this. I'd only be interested in Powerplay if it was completely reworked because as it is, there is nothing in it for me. I'd be quite happy for it to be removed entirely from the game. It serves no purpose for me except to clog up spawns with PP ships, which annoys me loads when i'm bounty hunting.

What I'm trying to point out though is that people seem to be so focused on how great things could be in theory they are not following through on how things will play out in reality. Remember things like Rinzler's video and other statements from PvPers? Anyone can escape a gank attempt! Git gud! Be prepared. Follow these guides. Either Rinzler and co are talking rubbish or expectations regarding what will happen if certain changes are implemented are badly wrong.

As I said earlier, if PP goes Open only, its fine with me, as long as it is open only, and no trace of it exists in PG/solo. At least then i will be able to bounty hunt without the annoying powerplay ships spawning all over the place.
 
Not a CG though - as it affects which power "controls" particular systems, on a weekly basis. It does seem to be a feature that pits eleven Powers (rather than thousands of Factions) against each other - so rather more focused than the BGS.

Only Frontier know for sure how many engage in Powerplay.

It is a CG- its an open ended delivery that never really stops. Go back far enough and PP concepts copied the CG UI. You face the same adversaries across modes but unlike a CG which is a simple race you can't make the most of Powerplays weekly persistence to make more of the conflict. So rather than making it more tactical you have the feature hamstrung by being kept as a primitive CG.
 
Sorry, i thought one of the reasons given for making it open only was because of all the people alledgedly hauling away in PG/solo?

I'm not sure what else you are disagreeing with in relation to what I posted. Sure, some people like doing PvP, but if all they are doing is chasing down cutters, which most of the time will laugh them off (assuming they even meet) then those PvPers aren't really contributing much. Sure, they could go fight the PvPers on the other side, but none of that makes much of a difference to the actual PP merit situation. It just means PP is being used as a reason to PvP, rather than actually doing anything useful.


Yeah, as I read it you were saying if everyone was in open, everyone would haul because it's more efficient, whereas PvP isn't. So why isn't this the case already, where there are many haulers/underminers that are invulnerable to PvP, makig PvP even less effective? If a system is locked down with enemy "air" superiority, I won't be going there until my PvPers let me know there's a safe window. I'm slowed down, I have to equip differently to withstand attack. Maybe I die. It has an effect.
 
You do know what a Grom bomb is, right? A max trade Cutter will be minced alive by engineered ships, forcing the other side to either use smaller, faster ships (slowing forting / prep hauling) or have to sacrifice internal cargo space (again, slowing them down).

When in Powerplay you are hauling millions of units in a race, every trick counts.

Yup, i actually just referenced the grom bomb. Its probably why i would fly a Clipper. But remember, Rinzler assured us that even a type 7 can escape a gank attempt! Didn't you watch his video? You just need to git gud!

As long as its 1 on 1, should be no problem, as long as you prepare for it.

If the enemy is fielding wings against lone haulers, it either means that your side is also fielding wings against their haulers or else they already have a numerical advantage and therefore are in a superior position to start with. Assuming things are roughly equal, then you should be able to get through most of the time.

And, at the end of the day, even if they stop you 9 times out of 10, that 1 time earns you points that they are not earning.
 
Not everything is about hauling, but a vast majority is.

I never said anything about liking or not liking PvP in relation to PP. What i was saying is that anyone who is trying to take down haulers when they could be hauling themselves are being ineffective and it would be better if they spent their time hauling.

And as you keep ignoring, not every power has to haul all the time.

As I said, if it goes open only, then i presume those haulers who continue to play PP will become skilled at avoiding opposition, flying Cutters, and just waltz past any attempts to stop them. Personally, i don't have access to a Cutter, and i don't like beating attacks through tanking damage. I'd go with the Clipper and laugh at the fat combat ship trying to keep up with me. They can fire as many grom bombs as they like, i'll be out of range before they can even deploy their hardpoints :p

And by forcing you to halve your delivery rate the attackers have won.

Also, remove the possibility to go solo, those who really don't like it (assuming they don't just quit, in which case, they are a non-factor) can still block or use other methods to ensure they don't meet player opposition.

If that goes into cheating then thats up to FD to sort out, its not the fault of the feature.

What I'm trying to point out though is that people seem to be so focused on how great things could be in theory they are not following through on how things will play out in reality. Remember things like Rinzler's video and other statements from PvPers? Anyone can escape a gank attempt! Git gud! Be prepared. Follow these guides. Either Rinzler and co are talking rubbish or expectations regarding what will happen if certain changes are implemented are badly wrong.

I think its you not seeing it play out. If you force your enemy to slow down, then the chance of them failing that cycle have increased. Right now PP NPCs are totally ineffective at fighting back outside of gathering areas, making every delivery 100% reliable. Thats not a game.
 
Yeah, as I read it you were saying if everyone was in open, everyone would haul because it's more efficient, whereas PvP isn't. So why isn't this the case already, where there are many haulers/underminers that are invulnerable to PvP, makig PvP even less effective? If a system is locked down with enemy "air" superiority, I won't be going there until my PvPers let me know there's a safe window. I'm slowed down, I have to equip differently to withstand attack. Maybe I die. It has an effect.

What? Get in there! Or if a system is being heavily blockaded, go haul to another system. You've probably got loads you need to haul to anyway.

But just get in there. If you have PvPers supporting on your side, then they can provide a distraction. Personally i'd say thats a waste. Get everyone in hauling ships and go try get through. Doesn't matter if they stop you. All you're losing is a bit of time and the credits you spent on bypassing the cooldown timer to fill up quicker. And while they are sat there trying to stop people they are doing nothing for their power. You've got nothing to lose by making runs and any sucessful run is a gain. Plus, if they are hanging around, get their names, then block them. Job done! :D
 
Yup, i actually just referenced the grom bomb. Its probably why i would fly a Clipper. But remember, Rinzler assured us that even a type 7 can escape a gank attempt! Didn't you watch his video? You just need to git gud!

Escape != victory in Powerplay. By high waking you deny that delivery. By using a Clipper you slow the opposition.

As long as its 1 on 1, should be no problem, as long as you prepare for it.

Which quite often its not, especially as the cycle progresses and things get tighter.

If the enemy is fielding wings against lone haulers, it either means that your side is also fielding wings against their haulers

Erm...no.

or else they already have a numerical advantage and therefore are in a superior position to start with. Assuming things are roughly equal, then you should be able to get through most of the time.

Not everything is equal all of the time.

And, at the end of the day, even if they stop you 9 times out of 10, that 1 time earns you points that they are not earning.

Again- escape != victory.

9 times out of 10

It means you have had to try 9 times harder to help your power, and that delivery was 9 times slower.
 
And as you keep ignoring, not every power has to haul all the time.



And by forcing you to halve your delivery rate the attackers have won.



If that goes into cheating then thats up to FD to sort out, its not the fault of the feature.



I think its you not seeing it play out. If you force your enemy to slow down, then the chance of them failing that cycle have increased. Right now PP NPCs are totally ineffective at fighting back outside of gathering areas, making every delivery 100% reliable. Thats not a game.

Not igoring. I said most of the time though it is hauling. Its you who are igonoring that.

By halving your delivery rate, they have done nothing, while you have made deliveries. Unless, they have got some people hauling, in which case they have less people hunting. Keep in mind, i'm describing a situation here where each side is roughly equal. So equally good at hauling, equally good at PvP, equally good at PP strategy. I know it isn't, but just running off the law of averages. So, if your side assigns more people to hunting, they have less haulers.

We could run some numbers over it, although we would first probably have to define what we consider would be a realistic rate of kills for hunters assuming that all players involved are competent at hauling and hunting.
 
What? Get in there! Or if a system is being heavily blockaded, go haul to another system. You've probably got loads you need to haul to anyway.

And what if that system is a high CC system you can't afford to lose? Or, its a heavily contested prep system? Or expansion? Or, from the proposal is a mega UM system?

You can't ignore everything.

But just get in there. If you have PvPers supporting on your side, then they can provide a distraction. Personally i'd say thats a waste. Get everyone in hauling ships and go try get through. Doesn't matter if they stop you. All you're losing is a bit of time and the credits you spent on bypassing the cooldown timer to fill up quicker. And while they are sat there trying to stop people they are doing nothing for their power. You've got nothing to lose by making runs and any sucessful run is a gain.

Every disruption causes problems somewhere.

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Plus, if they are hanging around, get their names, then block them. Job done!

Which is why blocking needs to change too. Being able to block someone who wants to kill you in a feature about killing is.....silly.
 
I never said anything about liking or not liking PvP in relation to PP. What i was saying is that anyone who is trying to take down haulers when they could be hauling themselves are being ineffective and it would be better if they spent their time hauling.
As things are now, having the possibility to avoid all opposition by switching to Solo/PG, yes, PVP is not as effective as it should be. This is what this proposal tries to change.

As I said, if it goes open only, then i presume those haulers who continue to play PP will become skilled at avoiding opposition, flying Cutters, and just waltz past any attempts to stop them. Personally, i don't have access to a Cutter, and i don't like beating attacks through tanking damage. I'd go with the Clipper and laugh at the fat combat ship trying to keep up with me. They can fire as many grom bombs as they like, i'll be out of range before they can even deploy their hardpoints :p
I might be wrong but from what you're saying here I think you haven't done a lot of PvP.

Also, remove the possibility to go solo, those who really don't like it (assuming they don't just quit, in which case, they are a non-factor) can still block or use other methods to ensure they don't meet player opposition.
As mentioned in the OP, this is only one of a set of proposals and there will be another one that addresses the issue about blocking preventing instancing.

Look, don't get me wrong, i don't have a stake in this. I'd only be interested in Powerplay if it was completely reworked because as it is, there is nothing in it for me. I'd be quite happy for it to be removed entirely from the game. It serves no purpose for me except to clog up spawns with PP ships, which annoys me loads when i'm bounty hunting.

What I'm trying to point out though is that people seem to be so focused on how great things could be in theory they are not following through on how things will play out in reality. Remember things like Rinzler's video and other statements from PvPers? Anyone can escape a gank attempt! Git gud! Be prepared. Follow these guides. Either Rinzler and co are talking rubbish or expectations regarding what will happen if certain changes are implemented are badly wrong.

As I said earlier, if PP goes Open only, its fine with me, as long as it is open only, and no trace of it exists in PG/solo. At least then i will be able to bounty hunt without the annoying powerplay ships spawning all over the place.
I wish Frontier did a complete rework of Powerplay but as stated in the OP, these proposals are about improving what the game already offers with relatively simple tweaks. This is not about rebuilding things from scratch. Open Only by itself won't make Powerplay reach perfection but it would improve a lot.
 
Not igoring. I said most of the time though it is hauling. Its you who are igonoring that.

In an open context haulers become like gold dust

By halving your delivery rate, they have done nothing

So, time plays no factor in Powerplay? Each cycle is finite. Making the enemy work twice as hard means they are twice as likely to fail.

Unless, they have got some people hauling, in which case they have less people hunting.

Which is the trade off- and makes it a risk rather than an afterthought. And, not every power is hauling all the time.

Keep in mind, i'm describing a situation here where each side is roughly equal.

And I'm going from five years of seeing these things play out from a group lead perspective.

So equally good at hauling, equally good at PvP, equally good at PP strategy. I know it isn't, but just running off the law of averages. So, if your side assigns more people to hunting, they have less haulers.

Which demonstrates that an open powerplay is giving players more agency and available tactics.

We could run some numbers over it, although we would first probably have to define what we consider would be a realistic rate of kills for hunters assuming that all players involved are competent at hauling and hunting.

Killing is great, but denial of deliveries and just spooking other powers is enough. You can't do any of that in a pan modal Powerplay.
 
One thing to add is that not every PPer has full engineering and infinite credits at their disposal, so tank cutters or whatever are out of reach for many if not most of PPers. Mainly because they enjoy things other than mining and engi grinding, I guess.
 
I had this exact conversation with Agony during or around the OOPP focused feedback. The reason PvP is valuable within powerplay (assuming both powers are in open) is as follows: The mechanics of powerplay funnel players in a very limited number of systems, either HQs for fortifications or preparation / expansion systems. This means that it is easy to tell where a power will be hauling and means they cannot go anywhere else if they wish to contribute to their power's goals. As a PvPer I can interdict haulers in these systems and, as I have a combat cutter and grom bombs, they either high wake or they die, 100% of the time. This means that they cannot deliver their powerplay cargo unless I am otherwise engaged. Thus having PvP forces to control supercruise in these active systems is a massive advantage, an uncontested wing can completely prevent a power from hauling or undermining in a given sector. I realise you could fly a clipper and outrun us, but you've taken a huge hit in merits/hr compared to a cutter or a T9.
 
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