Crime and punishment, make bounties for murder mean something

I'd hate to think how much a 'wetwork' contract would have to offer to pay for the destruction of so many ships and their cargo...

These contracts already involve the suppression of notoriety. In any revised system they'd rationally offer something to reduce the risks involved with the mission. While this could be raw monetary compensation, more likely it would be some other suppression of criminal reporting. I can think of several possibilities.

For example: you have obtained a few hundred credits of bounty from a PvE surface scan mission. This makes you a valid target for an incompetent PvP bounty hunter, who attacks you with an unengineered Anaconda. It should absolutely be valid [1] for you to fire back and turn them into debris, but under your plan you would have to pay them compensation for their stupidity if you did.

A familiar scenario:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MChFkhl2B_8


Went from a 200cr temp bounty from accidental friendly fire to a ~40k cr bounty from shooting down six CMDR bounty hunters (in groups of various sizes) over the course of CG. My CMDR knew the laws, but he put his personal pride above adherence to them. Would have been content to have him remain wanted for the next five years...

The game should punish the act in accordance with the legal system, but this can't be so punitive that you don't do it.

Hard to be much of a deterrent then.

Main problem with crime in ED is that criminals in regulated space are always successfully reported and accurately identified. No criminality is plausible under such a system, unless the criminal is powerful enough to just ignore any legal consequences, which is itself largely implausible in areas with functioning criminal justice systems.

Avoiding detection should be priority numero uno for any rational criminal. If that fails, avoiding accurate identification and capture should be possible, but increasingly difficult. If one is actually forced to face the music for a capital crime, it should probably be the end of CMDR's career.
 
If one is actually forced to face the music for a capital crime, it should probably be the end of CMDR's career.

A pipe dream I realize, but I'd love it if Pilot's Federation reputation could move down as well, to the point permits and landings would be revoked all the way to expulsion and hostile treatment. This would of course require an alternate choice of some sort of criminal organization for those who lost favor with the PF.
 
Hard to be much of a deterrent then.

Main problem with crime in ED is that criminals in regulated space are always successfully reported and accurately identified. No criminality is plausible under such a system, unless the criminal is powerful enough to just ignore any legal consequences, which is itself largely implausible in areas with functioning criminal justice systems.

Avoiding detection should be priority numero uno for any rational criminal. If that fails, avoiding accurate identification and capture should be possible, but increasingly difficult. If one is actually forced to face the music for a capital crime, it should probably be the end of CMDR's career.
But if there's no benefit to pursuing crime, might as well just remove all crime from the game. Players can't interact at all with other players, you can't physically harm non-hostile NPCs or do anything illegal.
 
But if there's no benefit to pursuing crime, might as well just remove all crime from the game.

That's a strange way of thinking. If you wanted to remove any pretense of crime, then these things would just be legal, not physically impossible. Removing the ability to do things that don't have a clearly tangible benefit would be absurd.

As it is, there is very little benefit to pursuing crime. Anything that's illegal has a more profitable legal alternative of similar or lower risk and effort. In such a system, the only crime would be incidental or done simply to spite the system.

The problem is that the potential benefits that would logically drive people to take from others are mostly absent in this game. Destruction of one's foes or their property should have the potential to harm them, which in any rational setting has the potential reward of removing or mitigating a threat or a competitor. Theft should have the potential to be highly profitable by allowing the thief to reap the rewards of someone elses labor. In Elite: Dangerous, NPCs just respawn ad infinitium, so there is no real benefit to harming most of them, aside from very abstract and tedious negative BGS influence, or missions that can easily be substituted for something less annoying, while CMDRs cannot really even be harmed...thanks to near instant turnarounds and an absurd insurance system. Likewise, the scope of what one can steal (from anyone) is extremely limited (cargo) and it usually takes far more effort to commit such a theft than it would to directly source the same good via legitimate means.

Consequences are the reward and the penalty for all perpetrators and victims. This game has very little in the way of consequence and this is the source of all problems with the rewards for crime and the counterbalancing C&P systems.
 
Most societies lock up or otherwise get rid of unrepentant murder hobos. Being a game, that's a bit difficult to pull off since you don't want to lose customers.
 
I don't agree that NPC's and players need to be treated the same.

The NPC's are boring random denizens of the game world, players are SPACE ADVENTURERS.

And it can easily be resolved by saying all players are part of the Pilot federation (or a special segment there of) and the Pilots fed frown on random acts of violence (but not any at all) against their own members.

Then you can separate NPC killing from player killing, and it makes it a lot easier to make it more fun from all sides of the sphere.
 
In the ever going debate on gankers versus people trying to enjoy the game, we have the issue of the current way crime and punishment works.

There are a few key items to consider:
1 - We must treat NPCs and Player Characters the same way. (For "reasons", just go with it.)
2 - We want there to be a way for players to prey on NPCs, both in missions and outside.
3- Different factions are different jurisdictions, and normally does not care for crimes in other jurisdictions.
4- We want there to be a real downside however to "role play" the psycopath that runs around killing randomly.


The current system does definitely allow for #1 to #3 while #4 clearly is not currently discouraging enough.

The system with "notoriery" that forces you to wait before you pay off a bounty, and NPC bounty hunter is something. The problem is that the bounties are no way near the losses incurred.

My suggestion is to add a reparations as part of the punishment. You incur a reparation debt that amounts to the rebuy cost for the ship destroyed as well as the cost for any cargo destroyed. Notice that robbery (aka "piracy") does not count as goods destroyed. The cost is either 90% of galactic average or actual purchase cost, whichever is the lowest.

This of course has to be reflected in they payout for massacre and wet-ops missions.

At the same time anarchy systems need to mean something, I propose that uninhabited systems without a navigation beacon are considered lawless, the same way that some installations and conflict zones are today.

Anarchy regimes should not share bounties, while high security regimes should share murder bounties once you cross a certain threshold. If that is 10 notoriety or one billion in legal debts or something else I leave for those with better insight into the game mechanics (preferably FDev).


As for notoriety and bounties/fines/reparations as a result of missions:
Part of the rewards for a wet ops missions could be that your name is cleared for that crime (fines and reparations for that crime are paid off, but not notoriety). Just stay out of trouble if you do wet-ops, notoriety in itself is not a problem unless you have a bounty on your head.

Massacre missions (killing X number of enemy ships) are typically given in war, so there will be conflict zone where you can get those kills without incurring a murder charge.


This is a bit of a brain dump, so here goes:
1 - reparations for lost cargo and rebuy for the victim. The current discount for victims of mass murderers should be in place, but not reduce the amount the criminal pays to the insurance company. This just means that less of the reparations are paid to the victim.
2 - base bounty/fine for murder significantly increased to about one million credits. Also unlimit the payout.
3 - Bounty is set to half the value of the fines and reparations incurred both for fines above a value lower than the murder value, and unpaid fines, just as today.
4 - Trespassing and other minor bounties are not touched.
5- If reparations are paid off at a station contact, full reparations are sent to the victim(s).
6- If a bounty is claimed, reparations are halved (as half the bounties and reparations are paid as bounty)
7 - Legal debts are account bound and stay through character wipes.
8 - Failed missions? The penalties should be on the murderer, not the vicim. The murderer shold lose the majority of the goodwill. This includes fines for lost mission specific goods.

Please. if you comment, do not claim that it is a major inconvenience not to be able to handle hot goods because you managed to rack up millions in bounties using the current system, or that some of you ships and ship parts are hot. Just pay off your debts and be done with it.

Do however comment on situations I did not think of, actualy relevant game play that have to be accomodated without turning the galaxy into the completely lawless anarchy it is now.

Or just git gud and you can save yourself the effort of having to write forum posts about the C&P?

BTW you have a couple of false premises like "gankers versus people trying to enjoy the game" (false dichotomy: gankers are trying to enjoy the game, too) or "murder" (there is no murder in the game: you don't actually die and neither does you character). Not even to mention "psychopath" (wat?) or "not currently discouraging enough" (absolutely no need to discourage anything). :)
 

Pretty context specific though innit?

If my bounty free, non PP pledged CMDR gets attacked in an unarmed, lightly shielded bubble hopper with no cargo on board by a G5 Engineered meta FDL then no matter how gud I git it's never going to be anything other than a foregone conclusion.

gankers are trying to enjoy the game, too

They're not trying hard enough. Pick a fight you might lose. You'll enjoy it more if you win. If you can't win then maybe you need to git gud
 
Pretty context specific though innit?

The context here is "do it yourself, don't expect the game to hold your hand".

If my bounty free, non PP pledged CMDR gets attacked in an unarmed, lightly shielded bubble hopper with no cargo on board by a G5 Engineered meta FDL then no matter how gud I git it's never going to be anything other than a foregone conclusion.

Knowing what ship, loadout (and mode) to use where is part of gitting gud.

They're not trying hard enough.

Sounds like a baseless supposition.

Pick a fight you might lose. You'll enjoy it more if you win. If you can't win then maybe you need to git gud

As someone who spends most of his ingame time wingfighting, I think that's pretty much what I do, tyvm. :)
 
Consequences are the reward and the penalty for all perpetrators and victims. This game has very little in the way of consequence and this is the source of all problems with the rewards for crime and the counterbalancing C&P systems.

Pretty much. Can't have a meaningful C&P system when everything else is so meaningless.
 
Well I would certainly like a system in which crime does pay, and very well, but with very high risk, such that a career in crime could easily result in being banished to anarchy systems by the pilots federation and sent to jail if caught, with te consequence that the cmdr starts from scratch with a sidey.
 
Main problem with crime in ED is that criminals in regulated space are always successfully reported and accurately identified. No criminality is plausible under such a system, unless the criminal is powerful enough to just ignore any legal consequences, which is itself largely implausible in areas with functioning criminal justice systems.

Avoiding detection should be priority numero uno for any rational criminal. If that fails, avoiding accurate identification and capture should be possible, but increasingly difficult. If one is actually forced to face the music for a capital crime, it should probably be the end of CMDR's career.
This is why I honestly believe that bounties should only be incurred if an authority ship "witnesses" you commiting the crime, or at the very least confirms your presence at a crime scene following a distress signal / crime report. In lowsec you'd have a decent timer to get in, do your dirty deeds and get out again, whereas in highsec it'd be nigh-impossible. Cold/silent running to prevent authorities from resolving you as a contact would be another way to get away with it, but obviously weapon fire while they're in the area would be a dead giveaway.
 
Maybe have notoriety points act as anti-permits to systems. As you gain more you lose access to certain systems until you can only hop from anarchy to anarchy. As your notoriety recovers you get back into low-sec, med-sec and then high-sec.
 
Maybe have notoriety points act as anti-permits to systems. As you gain more you lose access to certain systems until you can only hop from anarchy to anarchy. As your notoriety recovers you get back into low-sec, med-sec and then high-sec.
If the ATR actually did jump on you in secure systems you would effectively be banished to anarchy anyway.
 
The big problem with "make it have really harsh punishments for shooting down clean player ships" is that there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so outside an arranged duel which have nothing to do with ganking, and this would stop all of those, too.
Yeah, like...

I've got a few "you killed" notifications in my history tab right now. Every single one of them is someone who, after being sent a message and given a scan, opted to try and boost away.

The vast majority of my piracy interactions over the last couple of days (for some reason, new players seem more open to talking? It's the people with a few ranks under their belt that get salty) tend to go more like this:
 
Fines for failed delivery of goods is usually higher than bounties, sometimes by 100% More, or even 1000% sometimes.
Make bounties exponential with notoriety Plus base bounty.
 
Sorry, I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into this but I'm guessing the motivation is biased when you strongly imply in your first paragraph that player killers are mutually exclusive from people enjoying the game ;)

The CP system in this game has gone through a lot of iterations and it's really complicated. Maybe Odyssey will see some revision but I'd not hold your breath.
 
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