Some Feedback for Frontier

[Jmanis]

People do challenging stuff because it is challenging and (sometimes) fun.
They to boring stuff to make a living.
They very rarely do a challenging and fun stuff to make a living and if they do it, it's usually challenging and fun for everyone else except them. For them it turns into routine.

Edit: i might be wrong tho...
i'm having the exact same job for 25 years already, and i still find it interesting (working in IT admin and support)
But IT changed and evolved continuously ... what never changes is the stupidity of some people asking for support ... but i digress and i hope FD does not see this, i still have a support ticket open

I can't say I've ever made a living off a job i didn't thoroughly enjoy and find challenging. I feel sorry for anyone stuck in that position though.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Large Combat vessels - that still need an Advanced Docking Computer

I don't actually 'need' an ADC - I can fly both Beluga and Cutter in silent running through a mailslot... But it is incredibly useful those times when it is just shuffling cargo between station & FC, or vice-versa...

Recently i even added a SC Assist module to my explorer Phantom... it, like many other modules is mostly switched off, but there are times when it pays to have it available, particularly around meal-times

 

[Jmanis]

Intrinsic and Extrinsic rewards are both important. I just don't think all this focus on CR is healthy for the game

better tell FD that before they put another multi- billion credit asset in the game as the next content release :/

Personally, I'd love fighting, salvage, thargoid samples, everything, to have more non- monetary incentive.

 

[NCFCpaul]

Since the lock down ended I've had to actually work for a living in R/L, which has seriously affected my time in game.

Recently I get an hour an evening, maybe, to unwind and blast some hapless NPC's with a bit of PvP here and there. Without really noticing, since the buff to combat payouts I've managed to gain a lot of credits. Like hundreds of million credits but not a full billion yet.

I'm not sure what the game is really lacking (other than the Panther Clipper) but grinding for credits is not an issue. Even my Cobra IV can earn more than. Its own weight in cash!

 

[MishaTX]

Why do we play games?

For me, it depends on what kind of game it is. For RPGs, I do it to "read a story that I'm part of." Those end, though, once I've finished the story, unless I decide I want to do it again differently for a different ending. They have an end goal.

Elite, to me, doesn't. Why do I play Elite? To do things I'll never be able to do in real life. There is no end goal, it's all about "go to the bridge, sit down, then where do we go today and what do we do there?" Why do I fly flight simulators? To beat the end boss? There isn't one. I'm as happy in a Baron as I am in a 737. I do it to fly a plane (as close as I can get to actually flying one). There is no "story" except for the one I write in my head, only "where do I go today?" Or I join a virtual airline and try making funny money that way, working up the ranks, whatever.

I do it because I want to do it, and in Elite I can do all of the things no matter what equipment I have. Sure, if I have bigger, better equipment, I can maybe do it faster or more efficiently, but I can go to Beagle in a Sidewinder as well as an Anaconda, the only diff being how long it takes. There aren't any "barriers", no matter how many players (mostly new ones who've watched more YouTube than what's good for them, in my opinion) say that you simply "can't have fun" or even do them in anything less than a G5'ed 'Vette that's also got an FC it can park on.

I beg to differ. If you feel that the game is "all about making Crs", then you're already playing it "wrong", in that you're hunting something that isn't there. It was never what this game was about. It was about flying spaceships, writing your own story in your head, maybe meeting others along the way to add to the story.

Imagine you could have all of the credits to buy your "dream ship" in a week (pretty much what was happening before the first mining "nerf"), then what would you do? You now have your dream boat AND an FC, so what's your goal now? I often wonder what the statistics are regarding new players who started back when Crs were raining on you if you even bothered leaving a station. How many of them left immediately thereafter because their only goal, the only thing that made this game worthwhile for them, was to have the biggest, bestest ship in the 'Verse, had been fulfilled and then what?

I don't know, I'm rambling, I know, but just my 0.02 Crs.

Nobody's ever going to tell me, however, that I didn't have fun five years ago when I was trying to survive in my crappy Sidewinder out of Trevithick Dock for long enough to buy an Adder. I'm sorry that's not "fun" to some people.

 

[Old Duck]

Some feedback for the OP:

Meh.

 

[Arindor]

I'm on the slow train to riches ... and it's 'fun'.

 

[Kekkonshiki]

I don't actually 'need' an ADC - I can fly both Beluga and Cutter in silent running through a mailslot... But it is incredibly useful those times when it is just shuffling cargo between station & FC, or vice-versa...

Recently i even added a SC Assist module to my explorer Phantom... it, like many other modules is mostly switched off, but there are times when it pays to have it available, particularly around meal-times

I love the people who think using an ADC or SCA is somehow a sign of weakness and only get to be "real pilots" by doing it manually.

I expect that when it comes time to wash their clothes they ignore the washing machine in their house and go to the nearest river to beat their clothes on some rocks.

Yes, I can beat my clothes on some rocks if I have to but I'd rather use the machine and sit back with a beer.

 

[metatheurgist]

Some feedback for the OP:

Meh.

Quack

 

[Zieman]

I'm just going to point out @Jmanis

This is not a thread started with "I was just making billions in my first week bounty hunting and [insert negative stuff here]"

Op. I managed to net a cool 1.2bn in roughly 2 hours doing something other than Mining. 100% legitimate, though absolutely not something you can do in your first week playing. Far from it.

Leaving player feedback is important but then so is perspective and I'd suggest that starting out on the basis of happily earning 200mcr/h yet claiming credit grinding for long activities is bad...

Lost me at the first paragraph after that. Yes, mining was Op. Now it's better.

Ah, so the OP is just a longwinded " boohoo nerf, sniff " post then.
Thanks for the tl:dr

 

[VR jefranklin18]

Nobody's ever going to tell me, however, that I didn't have fun five years ago when I was trying to survive in my crappy Sidewinder out of Trevithick Dock for long enough to buy an Adder. I'm sorry that's not "fun" to some people.

Exactly this. I have been playing since private beta and still have less than 1.5bill, no fleet carriers and my biggest ship is a T9. I could have gone a Cr/Hr-a-thon but that wouldn't have been enjoyable.

 

[dekot]

Many people who love this game hate FD for a reason. There is a 0% chance they're going to see this feedback. They don't even read the feedback in the feedback section.

 

[CMDR Deano The Imperial]

Hi. Returning player, here. This is an FYI for any developers who may care about the player base. I left the first time in silence, but I wanted to leave my feedback for you this time, before I uninstall the game again—possibly for good (we'll see.) I think it's important that you understand my angle, because it's likely the angle of countless other players who will undoubtedly follow suit at some point soon. The so-called 'temp's who were never worth the effort in trying to hook, the long-term players who've finally seen more than enough. And make no mistake, the problem is your decision-making—it's not that we're simply getting bored of your game.

Credits
Firstly, when I joined the game, it became apparent very quickly that there is a very strong emphasis on making money by completing long, repetitive and mundane tasks. Fine, I'll stick with that, but then you've already lost points in my book there. Only a few ways were ever really worth the effort for that purpose, and the absolute best at the time was core mining. It wasn't unheard of for players to earn 200Mcr/h. It helped me purchase, outfit and maintain my Anaconda (I'm sure you're aware of the insurance cost here), among a few other ships.

In practice, core mining was generally engaging enough to not be as dull as the other options (normal mining, passenger runs, etc.), so I got most of the ships that truly interested me, and I kept playing. Then my friends stopped (friends who chose not to core mine, by the way), and it got pretty lonely, so I stopped too. I figured we'd probably return later on when you'd added more content.

The trouble with this, of course, is that only core mining was worth the time. The other activities—namely fighting and exploration—simply didn't ever pay out enough to warrant doing them for any other reason than curiosity or fun. When it comes to 'fun', they're only marginally so. There always has been a ridiculous emphasis on money making in Elite Dangerous, which, in retrospect, is a shame, when I consider the truly incredible idea and engine that the game is built on.

Fleet Carriers
So a year or two passes and you've added the fleet carriers. There was a lot of flak at the time regarding their cost, and I ignored it when reading about it. I thought it was just standard whining about changes, the sort of retaliation that often happens when something new is introduced to a game that might mix things up a little. I knew you were going to nerf something about my mining, but I didn't realise that it was going to be as bad as it is. So it has recently dawned on me that the complaining wasn't completely unfounded.

The biggest issues that turn me away are two: fleet carriers exist and are being abused in their current embodiment; and sell prices were hit hard by a nerf to the way demand works.

So, as demand drops for a commodity at a station, it will offer less payment, correct? The result is that mining is now no more lucrative than any other activities. The important thing here is that each of these activities have to be played religiously in order for them to pay out anywhere near the 100Mcr/h mark.

To make matters worse, you introduced carriers, which players can purchase and use for mass storage (whether or not you intended them to be used this way is another matter entirely), and that's exactly what they're doing. Mine as much as possible, hoard it in your carrier. When the carrier has a nice amount or is full, you move it near a station with a great buy price, and unload it all. Profit, right?

Because of the nature of demand fluctuations, when a player does this, they destroy the profit venture there for everyone else. They leave with full pockets, but the silly little man in the brand-new Asp Ex', out in the middle of nowhere, mining his Asp off to save up for that carrier, is still going on and on, braving sheer repetition on the premise that by the time he gets to that same station, his work will have paid off. Then he arrives and finds that the buy price is barely even half of what it said on some completely external resource, and the demand has shrunk. He has to look elsewhere. Maybe nearby? Again, other carrier owners were beaten to it, so they've gone to the next best areas. He has to go further afield, ultimately increasing the amount of time he's spent on one trip. Every time I've gone on mining trips since I returned, this has been the result.

Because of this, the little man isn't making 100Mcr/h now. He's spending all that time accumulating cargo, sure, but he's spending even more time just finding the best places to sell it to make the effort worth-while. Yet, I would argue that the effort wasn't worth-while in the first place—a hard hour for a measly 100Mcr? You have to be joking.

I had already thought of how carriers were being used and initially I would try my hand at grabbing one for that reason. In the end, they're now the best way to make money. And then I researched alternative ways to get credits, and then I worked out the simple numbers involved and discovered that I'd be expected to mine for a full 50 hours (assuming my best, religious mining) before I could buy one. And then I cringed.

When it comes down to it, the only people who could really afford the carriers were those who had saved billions up before you changed the way demand works. They've bought their carriers, and now they're back to accumulating money again in the best way available, even if that means that they're doing it at 50-60% effectiveness, past considered. But the way they're doing that is affecting the way other people can do the same thing. You've effectively catered for the rich few. But it isn't the newbies' fault—I mean, should they have started playing Elite earlier? Maybe if they were a bit more proactive about it, they'd be rich, too... Lol, wrong.

Other Activities
Missions aren't exciting, period. They're pretty dull and straight-forward. One or two have a payout not dissimilar to 100Mcr/h when you get down to it, but they're even more repetitive and mind-numbing than mining. The rest just aren't worth the effort beyond what I've stated.

Most importantly, what you've done here is balance everything down, not up. Credit gains on all other activities needed to go up to 200Mcr/h potential—mining didn't need to be brought down to 100Mcr/h at best consistency.

The most fun I've had in this game to date was unlocking my FSD booster—I went to a particularly creepy planetoid, the structure located on what appeared to be a permanently dark side. The atmosphere was great and the activity itself was a perfect mix of minor grind and engagement, so much that I'm almost interested to go and see what getting the rest of it is like. You know what could be interesting with that concept? FPS experience. Hmm... Odyssey is coming soon, right?

The Result
I've spent near enough ten hours working through ways that I might get good credit gain (that's time not spent playing your game), i.e anything more than 100Mcr/h, because I have ships that I won't use for anything more fun in case I get smacked with an insurance claim, and I've given up. As I understand it, the idea here is to balance out all of the ways players can get money—capping it at something like 100Mcr/h—that way, anyone can do almost anything in order to get rich, yes? No. Because of the cap, they won't get rich 'too quick,' buy all their stuff and then get bored and leave. You want us to spend about the amount of time that we might spend in real work on your game, doing the chore-like activities, enduring endless loading screens as we hop through systems countless times like zombies (because still no Hyperdrive Assist...) All for very little to show and little more than chores to experience.

What bothers me is that this was the only option you could think of for preventing player loss, but this option is undoubtedly going to cause even more players to stop, too. How many hours do you think is reasonable to ask of us to devote to playing your game? You realise that you're selling something for a flat price, yes? You sell microtransaction cosmetic items that are completely impractical. Presumably, you want players to hang around and add the odd payment so that the game makes even more money. But your in-game store doesn't offer anything even remotely interesting enough to warrant the cost. Furthermore, you've effectively nerfed credit gains and don't even have a means to get credits with premium currency. I'm not suggesting that would be a good idea in a pay-to-play game, rather, I'm saying that you've nerfed credit gains to beyond a reasonable state.

And that leaves DLCs. Look, Horizons brought something pretty neat to the game. Planetary landings was pretty cool at first, if hilariously unrefined and bland after the first few trips. This needs to be built on. Odyssey, too, sounds like it might be a real blast the first few times, but what you need to remember is that by bringing in some FPS elements, you're bringing the game in FPS territory—that's why it won't keep players around for long. There are games out there that will always be better for that particular thing. So if I were you, I would think very carefully about how it all weaves into your existing game, because we don't simply want 'space legs,' we want it to fit in with the rest of the deal and we want it to be something that hasn't been done hundreds of times before, better, by other developers. If it isn't on-point then I'm pretty sure that it's going to be the final straw for a lot of people.

What we actually want for Elite is more engaging content, and I'm not talking about a samey FPS experience. We want the world you've made on an actual galactic freaking scale to present meaningful activities that don't require hundreds/thousands of hours of our lives to experience first-hand—and it does at least demand hundreds. 50+ (more realistically, 70-80+) hours solely for a fleet carrier, just to exploit their bad implementation in order to pay for end-game things. Making money to buy everything is currently the only true end-game, but now you've crippled that venture, it will leave people wondering why they're bothering to play your trading/mining simulator. There's no wonder, there's no engaging content worth passing on to non-players for their consideration. I can't quite believe I'm saying this about Elite Dangerous of all games, but there's not much of anything noteworthy. I've sunk around 200-250 hours into playing Elite so far. Far too much of that feels incredibly wasteful. Moreover, after that amount of time, this is the conclusion that I've reached. No bueno.

I truly wish you the best of luck, whether I come back or not. I'd like to see this game go strong but at the moment I'm more than burnt out on it and don't have any faith in its current form at all. It's left me feeling bitter, not sweet. I don't usually choose to leave feedback like this, but ED has shown an outstanding concept in my mind that could really blow people away. It's just being mishandled. Badly. In fact, it is blowing people away, albeit not in a good way.

I'll pay close attention to the reviews and feedback of Odyssey when you release that, because I am interested. But make no mistake, that feedback is probably going to dictate whether I (and those in similar mindsets) come back or not.

Why waste your time on such a long and unnecessary novel of a reason for you thinking about not playing the game anymore?
My advice would be to just move on and play something else.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Many people who love this game hate FD for a reason...

How many, and any particular reason?

 

[Trollymctrollerson]

If you find most things in the game boring, what exactly were you planning to do with the credits once you have them? You already have a conda and some other nice ships you said. If no use of them interests you than its the game itself you don't like, not the credit grind.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I've spent near enough ten hours working through ways that I might get good credit gain (that's time not spent playing your game),

Here's your problem (in my opinion) , you're trying to game the game instead of just playing it. Why waste 10 hours doing that? Pure madness!

 

[Rhyauk]

Returning player here too that stopped playing after a couple weeks and agree with OP. The nerf to income and mediocre travel mechanics did it for me, unimaginative and lacking on the devs part. Would you llike to come into work and your boss tell you that pay is being nerfed yet work loads remain the same? You'd leave that employer. If players were obtaining high end assets too quickly due to fast income, increase the price of said assets-- geesh. Far too many other devs out there with products that hold my game time attention.

Plus I've seen comments and execution in game that shows the hot mess that is this piece of software. Sorry, if you can't manage your variables where the adjustments to the economy are not reflected properly in game (you have to look at the left screen not the hud value for your reward) speaks volumes to the management mess (and coding discipline) you have as a company. Sorry, it is a mean comment but deserving after asking me several times on Steam for an award but delivering nothing close to what other games in that category delivered to its players/customers.

 

[MDHansen]

Kinda makes you wonder where the "I need MOAR and FASTER!" would stop?

I'd >bet< there would be still people unhappy with 500M Cr/h, 1B Cr/h or 5B Cr/h. MOAR, MOAR, MOAR.

All in a Game that by design is intended to be played and playable over years.
In that context, reaching "endgame" in 50 hours or less would be to kill off Player retention with a C4 charge.
Folks unaware how inexperienced they are getting bored already.
Barely Novice Rank (actual skill) but sitting bored on their Fleet Carrier, looking a a fleet of Ships they haven't even mastered yet.
Large Combat vessels - that still need an Advanced Docking Computer and SuperCruise Assist so they can perform basic Flight and Navigation lol

ELITE is alot of things - but it's not an "Easy Access" title. There's no "Executive Billionaire Starter Option" when creating a new CMDR.

I really would like to have seen these guys during the days where being able to purchase an E-Grade Python and still have a rebuy in the balance required over 50hrs of high-intensity Gameplay.
In a time there something like xxxM Cr/hour wasn't even a concept - but earning 2M Cr/hour was considered good and worthwhile income.

.. and refuel/repair/rearm took 60%* of your hard earned mission income
dem ol' days eh. I miss them, truly


*number may or may not be accurate, one of those outta my ass (buttocks then!) kind of numbers

 

[Helvellyn]

I love the people who think using an ADC or SCA is somehow a sign of weakness and only get to be "real pilots" by doing it manually.

I expect that when it comes time to wash their clothes they ignore the washing machine in their house and go to the nearest river to beat their clothes on some rocks.

Yes, I can beat my clothes on some rocks if I have to but I'd rather use the machine and sit back with a beer.

I'd generally rather find a balance - can't stand the idea of living in a world where everything's automated. We seem hell-bent on ending up like the humans in Wall-E. Already gone too far down that path IMO, and a realistic level of automation come the time Elite's set in would mean the game played itself. But you don't have to go one extreme or the other and we'll all have our different balances. Nothing wrong with using the ADC if you want to.

 

[CastorSugar]

Why waste your time on such a long and unnecessary novel of a reason for you thinking about not playing the game anymore?

That line of thinking isn't very useful in terms of development, now, is it? I left some opinions. Don't worry, nobody is obliged to agree with them. Only, I suspect many will. I think I'm within my right to leave feedback as I have and you're within your right to disagree with it. But you disagreeing doesn't mean that I shouldn't have posted it. I'm... Not really sorry if that offends you. Suck it up, I guess. The internet isn't a great place to be if you feel threatened by counter-opinions.

My advice would be to just move on and play something else.

I have moved on, as the post explained. I haven't gone back to playing after posting it. I didn't play for a day or two before posting it, either. Hell, I haven't even set this thread to 'watch'...

...but people 'quoting' me keep getting notifications in my email inbox. Gonna switch that off now, though. Hopefully the silence from me hereafter doesn't make people think that they've changed how I view this game, because I wouldn't want them to walk away fooling themselves. I agree with what some people here have said, but I still align with what I said in the original post.

Here's your problem (in my opinion) , you're trying to game the game instead of just playing it. Why waste 10 hours doing that? Pure madness!

I would argue that credit gain is an issue to be thought about in Elite from the very start, and that thinking about it is indeed a part of playing the game. The economy was a major consideration for Frontier in line with the Elite's predecessors. If that's madness, then, yes, we're all mad to some degree. Can I be faulted for trying to piece together better ways to make credits? I don't think so. Unfortunately for many players, this consideration does end up shrouding the thought of finding fun things to do—I don't mean because they end up thinking only about credits (or perhaps some people do get to this stage), rather, they end up thinking of the cost/worth of fun things to do, which is why my friends aren't interested. Some people are willing to push it for longer, as I did. Ten hours is a vague estimate across my total play time. When the economy is such an integral part of the game play, weighing up the worth of something fun is a normal process and I wish the advocates of Elite would at least stop demonising that with the likes of the "just play the game" expression, and I wish they would accept that this game has well-meaning and correct critics. Fun things tend not to stay fun indefinitely when they're short-lived and can be repeated endlessly. And, honestly, when I get in from work, for example, I'm not really in the mood for doing something endlessly repetitive and mundane.

Don't get me wrong though, a lot of the time I was having fun, otherwise I would have left sooner. It's just that among the points I made was one at least alluding to this 'fun' being short-lived and mundane on repetition. Hell, even looking for ways of making better credits was fun to some degree, but the disappointment in the discovery that the only ways of making the best credits are now utterly dismal in their pay-outs in the name of holy grind shattered that particular fun. I have already agreed—this game is probably just not my thing. And that's fine. But, despite the concept of 'do what you want to do', I think it's misleading to suggest that this means Elite Dangerous appeals to a huge range of people (not that you have—but that's the undeniable premise of the game's galaxy.) I think the concept does. I think the practical game could but doesn't, and that made me want to leave "a novel" (funny that paragraphs frighten people...) about me leaving. You should take a few moments to consider the counter-opinions instead of outright refuting them. Or, you know... Appear as dim as you seem. I think I said the following to someone else above, and I don't mean to undermine the friendly tone of when I did with this time, but I'll repeat it to you—you do you.