Why FDev.. just why make this game so tedious on purpose?

"The Grind" is going to be interpreted according to the individual, so the chances of any particular 'task' being 'grind' to all players are miniscule - Which is why I insist I have never felt the need to 'grind' anything in this game - I just play and do things I enjoy, including (like @Achtung-Goomba ) making a 'mini-game' of things that present the opportunity to do so, just because it is entertaining to do so.

Yes, there are optional things I could do in the game that I'd consider 100% 'grind', but I deal with that by not doing them as just about anything in this game is optional anyway.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
I've always accounted for the fact that elite is still operating in a market with absolutely zero competition, combined with players growing interest in the space genre and acceptance of simulator complexity games in general. All of frontiers games pretty much have zero competition, strategically as a company they pick their battles very well.

I think that gives frontier a free pass with all the issues that we plainly and passionately see, and also explain the objective successes frontier achieve.

If elite wasn't a space simulator, how would mainstream (say reddit) reception be to the existing issues? If a competing mid tier publisher released an elite clone without the issues.. would we even be playing elite?

Yeah, i would more account what you mentioned to the brilliant strategic direction of david braben more than a measure of the quality of elite's content?

What you describe as "having zero competion" can also be viewed as "brilliant enough to pull off something so detailed, appealing and engrossing that no one else has been able to get close enough".

Not saying that literally is the case but just so to point out that not having competition is simply another way to express the fact something is among best in class to start with.

Otherwise having zero competition in an market segment that is easy to enter or compete with usually ends fast, with other competitors joining the fray soon enough. Alas, according to you in the last 6 years since ED launched that does not seem to have been the case.

Now, having said that I actually think ED has had and has tons of competition.

Warning wall of text!

Granted, if you define competition as in "any other games that do what Elite does, or close" then you will be hard pressed to find many games that compete. The only option left as of today would be pretty much to clone Elite. But I personally think that would be narrowing the scope of the definition so dramatically that it would render the discussion a bit moot and useless. Successful games tipically and often tend to be succesful precisely because they manage to differentiate themselves well enough from others, weather it is in actual innovative game features, or improved quality of old proven ones, or great graphics, or great social features, or great marketing or... etc. And that is hard, it requires good planning and execution.

More critically and to the point here you also seem to think, and correct me if I am wrong, that a lack other games in this very specific and narrow niche would prevent FDEV from being motivated to improve or do better. And this is the part where I think you may be missing a new angle, so let me put a different spin on what you may consider competition.

EVE, the X series, Space Engineers etc or SC even if not released yet, so to get some examples.

All those other space games may do things better than Elite in certain areas. And that is precisley what competition means because at one point or another some players that may be considering spending time or money in Elite may decide to spend that time and money with any of those other games instead because in their view they may do some of those things better.

In other words, you do not need another game or games that fall squarely into Elite´s niche to generate that competion. Games compete every day on the basis of partial overlap of feature sets that players of every walk of life may find attractive.

FDEV probably knows this very well, and follows relatively closely the development of games that share some of the themes or features that Elite has. Games like EVE, NMS, Space Engineers, Kerbal, Astroneer, Evochron, Hellion. Even non game software like Space Engine or projects of games in development such as Star Citizen are already competing with Elite for some of the same players time and money (almost 350 million dollars there suggest as much). Now some of us may be able to spend both time and money in more than one of these, but that does not detract an atom from the fact that the competition is very real and the developers of each of those are in competition either in most or some of the features of their games and projects.

This competition, has been there since day 1. For example, the Star Citizen kickstarter was about the same time as Elite´s and I would bet that FDEV´s project execution plan was somewhat influenced (even if it was just so to decide the Elite´s launch date and some elements of the scope that would go into it) by the public views and plan for SC coming from Chris Roberts. And viceversa.

All those represent very real competition that makes a dev team to try and stretch and strive to deliver better and/or faster, or all of the above, than others. The results obviously are for each of us to judge, these may be better at times, not so good at others (competition alone does not guarantee good results), but that is by the by, the incentive for FDEV to stretch and improve Elite is there thanks to all that competition since day 1.
 
Judging by the games the publisher of this video plays (Doom Eternal, For Honour) it's not surprising he realised Elite is not his thing. What most mature people do in this case is just move on and play something they actually enjoy, instead of making "silly FDev" videos. :unsure:
 
I've always accounted for the fact that elite is still operating in a market with absolutely zero competition, combined with players growing interest in the space genre and acceptance of simulator complexity games in general. All of frontiers games pretty much have zero competition, strategically as a company they pick their battles very well.

I think that gives frontier a free pass with all the issues that we plainly and passionately see, and also explain the objective successes frontier achieve.

If elite wasn't a space simulator, how would mainstream (say reddit) reception be to the existing issues? If a competing mid tier publisher released an elite clone without the issues.. would we even be playing elite?

Yeah, i would more account what you mentioned to the brilliant strategic direction of david braben more than a measure of the quality of elite's content?

EDIT2: Of course there are great things that are provided from elite. Wouldn't have found myself playing with it otherwise. But the context is very far from praiseworthy, and sadly has crossed the line where its in most advanced players interests to speak out and let them know what the reality is. Its not benign enough to just let pass and we'll be okay.. Even though from frontiers perspective they're running a business and of course that comes first.



That's a really good point, and subjective from both ours and frontiers perspective ultimately.

Since you asked though, id have to say id measure to "industry standard" in terms of completeness and quality of video game features. What is received from other games in the steam library. Personally i wouldn't have any valid gripes if it were on par with the rest i guess.

Does industry standard include golden ammo, P2W loot boxes, pay to increase progress?

If anything one of my issues with elite is it IS going closer to the industry standard in many ways. We were told ED would not have generic MMO tropes and would be a fairly hard sci fi game and yet here we are with the economy getting Blatted, multiple currencies and enchantments and fantasy weapons.

When ED was 1st pitched it was pitched as letting FD self publish precisely so It could keep being a niche game and stead clear of the generic stuff major publishers would insist on. Games like ETS2 and DCS imo are very targeted games. But they know what they want to be and fulfill their niche very well and still manage to be successful.
 
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Instant gratification is no gratification at all. Now get back to work or I'll find you (in ED) and KILL you. I have spoken.
 
What you describe as "having zero competion" can also be viewed as "brilliant enough to pull off something so detailed, appealing and engrossing that no one else has been able to get close enough".

Snip

Sure, there's a bit of that.

Out of the other games we can buy today, NMS is the closest to elite in terms of mechanical competition. There are features that differentiate elite and nms but to someone disinterested, if you squint and pull up a spreadsheet at the core they're unexpectedly close. The problem is stylistically NMS is so out there if you prefer a particular theme, the other one is so unappealing it its difficult to hold. Id still want to say there's no competition elites niche, anchored in astronomy + slight simulator + bgs + frills.

I do accept your point though that the depth frontier have built over time is quite large, and it would be an interesting decision for a competitor to attempt to replicate and both one up it as required.

I don't think all the mainstays are competitors at all apart from being space games.. (and please dont bring star citizen into civilized discussion, its just something else). I've played most of them.. elite is unique among them.
 
Does industry standard include golden ammo, P2W loot boxes, pay to increase progress?

Depends on the ethics and values of the developer.

I've never had to make a real decision on whether to be evil or not so can't comment, the only thing i can add is i've always praised developers who can come up with win/win siutations when it comes to monetization. Sadly those games don't seem to last that long, or also include evil things in addition so.. yeah.
 
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Isn't it interesting that you complain about the lenght of a video of the gameplay loop but enjoy the gameplay loop?

It is deliberatly as long as it is to actually hammer the point home. A simple piece of text would not do it justice.
1.Honestly, my only complaint was that the dog JPEG didn't seem connected to the video causing a 'r/whoosh' to occur not just for me but other also(I hope)
2.A "Simple piece of text" can do wonders when communicating things to people, a sign with "Bev's milk" in the company fridge tells me to buy my own for example.I like knowing why someone is upset/annoyed so I can help if I can.

What is wrong with you?

(yeah this is sarcasm.. like the first one, sorry for not making it clear with a sign)
Everything, obviously, I mean I enjoy ED/ Warframe /Monster Hunter and whatnot. I thought this is a self evident truth! :sneaky:
 
I'd just like to point out that I interjected what's essentially an argument thread with an actual suggestion to help enhance this exact scenario, make it faster for skilled players and also add a new feature yet...

A page later, the same largely non game related arguments rage on and not a single reply to the suggestion (even to counter it with further discussion).

I'd have to conclude that no one here is really interested in the game being better. And this is a common thread that pervades here, if I'm honest. You all just love arguing way more than actually discussing the game.

Anyway, those of you who feel material gathering is too grindy, fdev have recently acknowledged this and commited to investigating ways to make this better (that includes removing the lazy, back handed suggestion that the op log in and out at the anaconda site, the likes of which "game play" I'll be glad to see the back of if fdev achieve this).

Hopefully, the process as a whole will be more fun and involved than it can be now.

You can get back to arguing about stuff now.
 
I enjoy ED but some of the gameplay loops are lacking imo.

Take gaining ranks with either superpower. I've reached admiral or king by.....delivering cargo. There should have been some hand crafted content here rather than running bland missions again and again to rank up.

Unlocking guardian weapons. The gameplay loop is literally land at site run site which again is pretty basic and once you have done one once you have seen it all, log off and on and repeat. Again, this should have been hand crafted content that you run once for each module, not running the same sites countless times to unlock different sizes and gimbal etc.

The mission system in general is extremely bland. I am hoping oddesey rectifies this is some regard. You have the whole of space to play with, I just find the missions fall flat when considering the potential of the surroundings.

My biggest gripe though is with planet variation. Space is epic and FD have gone some way to simulate that. However, the locations are a bit samey. There could be so much more. Ie planets coming apart after being hit by asteroid, vampire stars, stars in direct contact with other stars, quasars, planets getting slowly sucked into black holes, stars surrounded by proto planetary discs, dead stars destroying planets. Again I hope with oddessey we get a bit more variation and again with any future expansions.

I will stop here but I could go on and on.
 
I fully agree (and I think most would too) that parts of the game could (and should) be improved.....

However the way to start a discussion about it isn't to kick off with a clickbait title essentially stating the game is crap and then a video which does nothing except show what is meant to be a tiny part of the game done in passing over a few seconds dragged out over minutes.

Unless op is seriously suggesting the ability to break off samples from structures and collect in your SRV should be removed from the game.


FD don't help themselves however. The ability to reset instances at will just encourages it and on top of that CGs where the ONLY way to compete to be in the top 25% is to do that exploity nonsense IS to do just that does reinforce that nonsense as expected gameplay (ie the meta alloy CG).

So imo there is plenty of blame to go around.

(And I include myself in that. I complain a lot as well and yet ultimately I have over 2500 hrs in the game over 6 years.... So warts and all FD must have got something right

FightingFirst above is dead right about the military progression. So much could be done there and I recent just got promoted to a really high level in the federation for delivering some datani think it was a few jumps.

That right there should be some really cool long drawn out content imo , either smuggling something really dangerous, fighting some tough target , investigating a signal in some distant corner of space or something... Not just deliver a data packet 1 jump away
 
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@Turric4n_ED
I really hope you have all engineers unlocked, otherwise you're in for a shock...if you haven't then I would get a head start and start penning out your next post now.
By the way, there are ways around what people consider "grind"...for example, simply fly to Hutton Orbital and claim your free Anaconda...I think FD updated this so the conda comes with all raw mat bins maxed out. Some consider this cheating, others don't.
 
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I fully agree (and I think most would too) that parts of the game could (and should) be improved.....

However the way to start a discussion about it isn't to kick off with a clickbait title essentially stating the game is crap and then a video which does nothing except show what is meant to be a tiny part of the game done in passing over a few seconds dragged out over minutes.

Unless op is seriously suggesting the ability to break off samples from structures and collect in your SRV should be removed from the game.


FD don't help themselves however. The ability to reset instances at will just encourages it and on top of that CGs where the ONLY way to compete to be in the top 25% is to do that exploity nonsense IS to do just that does reinforce that nonsense as expected gameplay (ie the meta alloy CG).

So imo there is plenty of blame to go around.

(And I include myself in that. I complain a lot as well and yet ultimately I have over 2500 hrs in the game over 6 years.... So warts and all FD must have got something right
Agreed that the way to start discussion can be better but the op makes a good point later on... No one cares then.

He then proved that point himself by being amongst those who totally ignored the single post that made a suggestion in favour of continuing the argument ;) Badly written suggestion threads can still be salvaged with sensible discussion but...

As I said, I think the percentage of people here who are keen to hash out ideas and discuss things properly is miniscule.
 
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