This is about the only time I've ever had what I'd consider an "unreasonable" bounty, though that said, guided missiles aren't infallible either, so I didn't really mind 
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKVBvMxXHqg
More recognition needed
- Thread starter Maximillian Forrest
- Start date
Funny thing is, if you hit "friendlies", well... not just hit, but freaking shower them with Gimballs or Turrets, that's fine, nobody will bat the eye. But if you hit them with Fixed, they gonna sic on you like a bunch of rabid dogs.
There really needs to be some better mechanism of friend/foe AI recognition. I'm pretty sure they can go hostile on you, if your AI SLF pilot hits friendly ships with their fixed weapons. It's the only explanation why in CZs sometimes faction that I won several battles for, starts attacking me out of the blue.
There really needs to be some better mechanism of friend/foe AI recognition. I'm pretty sure they can go hostile on you, if your AI SLF pilot hits friendly ships with their fixed weapons. It's the only explanation why in CZs sometimes faction that I won several battles for, starts attacking me out of the blue.
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I get caught out by it from time to time, maybe once a month or so. It'll always be because I was too focused though.
That was with my frag boat. It never happens with my laser boat.
If you allow a threshold that'll allow even one full Corvette frag blast then you're allowing enough damage to destroy some ships outright. That has to be avoided for obvious reasons; the alpha strike becomes exploitative then.
Even if you delete engineering from the game this scenario still exists. Frags, PAs and rails do high damage. Glancing blows on a ship that's not targeted is allowed but a full hit will trigger assault charges. It has to work that way so the ship getting hit can defend itself.
Ultimately, if you opt for the burst damage weapons you must also opt for higher than normal care in heated battles. It's a trade off. And in the case of a vette frag boat, it's a pretty fair one.
If FDev's coders could write an algorithm to determine player intent they'd not be working for a games company...
It's not about friend or foe, it's about allowing leeway for mistakes by the player whilst preventing exploitative mechanics.
The bottom line here is it's the player doing the shooting (ignoring what you're saying about the SLF not really sure that's got much to do with the core issue). There are times a non target flies across sights where the player wasn't aware enough to stop in time and there are times the player just makes an error and isn't careful. It's fair to try to grant some leeway in both scenarios but it has to have a defined upper limit.
You can't do it any other way without knowing what the player intended.
If you allow the upper limit to accommodate over 500-1000 damage (engineered frag ships easily break that in a single second if close enough) then you're allowing continuous, sustained fire with many weaker weapons and you're allowing some ships to be destroyed without being allowed to fight back. Imagine how rubbish it would be if the threshold was 1000 damage... With a beams ship, that's about 10s of continuous fire before the assault is triggered; what does the target ship do in those 10s if there's no bounty applied to the ship hitting them?
I don't know what the actual limit is but it's fair enough if you're careful and you need to be ultra careful if you wield high damage weapons. It's just common sense.
It's way, way softer than it was at launch, where a single stray size 1 pulse hit would get you wanted. It's not perfect. But the issue with it isn't its own design, it's the large disparity between the lower and upper damage output of the weapons.
And I don't think that is likely to change enough, even if fdev undid the ridiculously op engineering options.
The only thing I think that might help is if the limit is scaled based on the hit ship's health (ie, if you frag blast a shield tank and knock off a tiny percentage, is it really a crime?) but that won't stop the op scenario, just reduce it a bit if they're lucky their "target" was strong enough. So I'd be happy if it got added to the game, it's an enhancement, but it's really entering the nice to have, unlikely to ever get added because it's low frequency in occurrence, type fix.
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@Ydiss
You're trying to overcomplicate issue and mechanism to prevent it. Set damage thresholds won't do, because TTK is relatively long most of the times. This mechanism of "leeway" should be present in several instances only, and be "as is" in the rest of the content. Say, if you're allied with faction, and hunt targets either in RES, CZ or installation, let, say 5 sec of sustained fire be forgiven. If not allied, maybe 3 secs. This coming with cooldown, say you fired for few seconds on friendly, after 10-30 secs you can have 5 more secs on friendly target. If you manage to outright kill target, than hostile response should automatically trigger.
It won't be harmful in any way, because even in overengineered combat ship, your highest alpha shouldn't take out any CZ ship in one go. In RES, if you can deal significant damage in one go to friendly, what's the big deal? It's PVE, how is it an exploit exactly? Any ships there are laughably easy to take out anyway, so I don't see any reason to manipulate it.
But turning wanted/hostile immediately on ramming damage, single contact from any hit against player ships, stuff like wet work contracts, interdiction by local authorities and etc. shouldn't be too hard to code. Along with fixing bunch of false-positive hostile reaction would be nice.
Right now system is way more exploitable than it could have been. And fixing it isn't a big deal, really. Just a matter of caring, nothing else.
You're trying to overcomplicate issue and mechanism to prevent it. Set damage thresholds won't do, because TTK is relatively long most of the times. This mechanism of "leeway" should be present in several instances only, and be "as is" in the rest of the content. Say, if you're allied with faction, and hunt targets either in RES, CZ or installation, let, say 5 sec of sustained fire be forgiven. If not allied, maybe 3 secs. This coming with cooldown, say you fired for few seconds on friendly, after 10-30 secs you can have 5 more secs on friendly target. If you manage to outright kill target, than hostile response should automatically trigger.
It won't be harmful in any way, because even in overengineered combat ship, your highest alpha shouldn't take out any CZ ship in one go. In RES, if you can deal significant damage in one go to friendly, what's the big deal? It's PVE, how is it an exploit exactly? Any ships there are laughably easy to take out anyway, so I don't see any reason to manipulate it.
But turning wanted/hostile immediately on ramming damage, single contact from any hit against player ships, stuff like wet work contracts, interdiction by local authorities and etc. shouldn't be too hard to code. Along with fixing bunch of false-positive hostile reaction would be nice.
Right now system is way more exploitable than it could have been. And fixing it isn't a big deal, really. Just a matter of caring, nothing else.
Because you can ram some targets to death, without triggering wanted status...
Just to clarify, destroying a target through ramming will trigger wanted status on death of the target, unless you're in a lawless area. But correct, ramming it (without causing death) won't trigger wanted status unless you're in a no-fire zone where speed restrictions apply.
CZ allies already have a substantially larger threshold of damage tolerance
Are you sure this isn't because you're targeting the non-hostile ship? The damage tolerances only apply if you haven't got the ship targeted. (I'll go check later today)
It works very inconsistently for me at best. My ships' damage output isn't too big anyway, but sometimes they turn hostile as soon as I literally land single projectile on them, sometimes there's one allied ship at the end of CZ (after I won) that starts chasing and shooting me for reasons I'm unsure about. Either way, it doesn't seem to be working correctly.
You are correct, it is. But it shouldn't work like that. Very often, when I shoot someone and have him in my crosshairs, some friendly ships, either cops or CZ allies are flying right through my line of fire, and if weapons are turrets or gimballs, no matter how long I held trigger, they never mind the damage. Isn't that silly?
Not sure i understand. I regularly trigger aggro by firing gimbals into a pack with a hostile targeted[1], and fixed should be no different I'd have thought.
[1] this usually happens when we get the upper hand and start snowballing.
It can’t be difficult establishing what a player’s intentions are once in an instance. If I’m shooting around any anything which moves then I expect to heavily reprimanded for it. If on the other hand I’m destroying only wanted pirates then this goes to show I’m not going to intentionally shoot at anyone innocent. By all means fine me for the all the repair bills, but don’t put a bounty on my head unless I actually kill someone.
Oh boy would I exploit the hell out of that
1. Me, farm bounties
2. Me, blat the defences of some rando
3. Wingmate, finish the job before the other guy knows what happened.
But seriously, what happens if you're farming pirates, and some rando shows up and you start blatting them without repercussion, and they attack back.... they get a bounty then for shooting a clean target because they haven't been attacking pirates? That's completely broken.
You know the game is broken when a stray shot of engineered gun is enough to fill the leeway and cause a hostile reaction.
None of this really matters though. Fdev said very clearly that the point of triggering a bounty is so the victim can defend themselves. Determining when that should be must always err on the side of the one being hit. Always. And, at the end of the day, whenever this happens it is us failing in some way.
I think the actual negative impact of this is being left off the table anyway. So long as you don't kill your target (assuming bounty hunting here) you tottle off, get rid of the bounty and carry on. It's only when you accidentally land a killing blow that the fun tax really starts and that's a whole different story anyway. And if you're in a CZ, get out, get back. Done.
There has to be a penalty for failure. And hitting the wrong target too much or with very powerful weapons is exactly that. No matter how they "flew in front of you", you can hear other ships close by and see them on the radar. It's 100% in your control to calm the fdown and wait until you're sure you won't tag unwanted targets.
That is part of what makes you an excellent pilot not just a good one who can grind engineers. It's a part of the challenge.
Even if fdev could magic up a mind reading algorithm to determine your intent, at some trigger point recklessness has to have a punishment. The only change here is to push the leniency bar up, which directly pulls the protection for innocent targets down. It'll impact equally negatively and positively so there has to be a point where we just stop and accept it's our responsibility to not fire unless we're sure we won't mess up. That means understanding your arsenal and the risks of using it, including gimbles being suddenly hit by chaff, frags at close range when a ship flies in front of you.
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If someone enters an instance and the first couple of kills includes attacking an innocent craft then I would expect them to be heavily reprimanded. My original isn’t about deliberately targeting innocent ships, it was more about more leeway for those who have been in an instance and built up a reputation for only attacking wanted pirates.Oh boy would I exploit the hell out of that
1. Me, farm bounties
2. Me, blat the defences of some rando
3. Wingmate, finish the job before the other guy knows what happened.
But seriously, what happens if you're farming pirates, and some rando shows up and you start blatting them without repercussion, and they attack back.... they get a bounty then for shooting a clean target because they haven't been attacking pirates? That's completely broken.
But it would be used to deliberately target innocent ships. That can't be ignored. That's the problem with overly complex rulesets; they become even more open to exploitation. The solution really is to just check your fire.
I don’t see how this would allow players to deliberately target innocent ships in an instance, as that should still result in a bounty no matter how long you have been in it.
But you just said it wouldn't.
So again... I'm plowing through bounties, and 40 pirates later, I see some player who I don't want getting near my game. That literally says I can light them up unimpeded, without risk of retaliation, until I kill them. That's a broken, exploitable mess.
So either:
- It's a bad idea; or
- You're going to clarify by layering even more conditions on top, making for an even more convoluted and confusing system.
Well that might be a source of your problem, luck can override skill.
It can override technology as well but not so easily and if you use turrets instead of fixed weapons you get more tolerance.
Gimbals and turrets can be made to scatter their fire by enemy chaff so not all miss hits from them are entirely the commanders fault while fixed weapons are overpowered in comparison so break the tolerance more easily.
In the case of turrets they actually cease fire automatically if a non target is in the way, this isn’t easy to spot with some weapon types but it does happen.