Proposal Discussion Anti Botting Agreement Idea 3.1 Player incentivised, VR compatible in-station "not-a-literal-Captcha"

You only need one checkpoint at a vital stage, that bot scripts can’t get around, and that would render their entire automation scripts useless.

It would be enough for example if the auto-docking process didn’t begin until your ship enters the mail slot, or at least gets within a very close proximity to it. This might make auto-docking a little less helpful to those who use it, but it would still do the most “difficult” part of the docking for you.

It’s either that, or an authorisation code, or manually selecting the landing pad I think.


No it wouldn't, how do you think they managed to navigate super cruise before super cruise assist? if you are to create solution for automated flight between two stations, then you need to deal with the super cruise part. and that will involve navigating around stuff like the star and planets. and the most obvious way to do that is to take a screenshot, or use a webcam pointed at the screen.. all the information needed is on the screen to act upon. and it must be there, as we the real players need the same information todo the same thing. There is commercial software that do exactly this, analyze a picture for specific things. and these things are getting better and better, and these tools are evolving and new ones created, and as time progress, more of these tools get an open source counterpart, they are not meant to make botting easier in games, but they have all the analysis stuff needed to read an image for for vital information.

and once you have figured out how navigate the super cruise, doing the actual docking is very easy, as you have a tool that will tell you how far in you need to fly, what direction your landing pad is, so fly in, rotate, and then use thrusters "down" to move towards your landing pad, and then some small adjustments is needed secure the landing. you never even have to see the landing hologram... or even bother about what landing pad you where assigned. all you need is to watch this little navigation tool...


so unless you plan to ruin the game for everyone, then there is very few things that would only affect botting.
 
What would you suggest?

Now this is pretty interesting, you are making ALOT of suggestions to deal with problem, a problem only FDev can really handle, you have shown very little proof that FDev have ignored this, as I can reacll, the answer have always been, report with your findings, and then FDev will look into it...

So if you are unhappy with how FDev is handling this issue, then what makes you believe that FDev would consider to add some anti-player mechanics into their game?


There are some much more needed issues with the BGS that better needs fixing than this perceived botting problem. I simply think that FDev have looked into your reports, I do hope you do make these reports, and probably found that in most reports there wasn't any botting going on, just some very dedicated players playing smarter.


It is not up to me to solve this problem, it is not me who try to solve this problem, but what I have seen, is that you do not seem to have a clue on what you are actually trying solve, and if your all over the place suggestions, do not hold up to basic scrutiny, then it is bad suggestions. and if you do not understand what the capabilites of current gen automatuion tools can do, then are bound to keep producing bad suggestions to solve the problem, just as DRM for the most part, hurts the honest buyer, your suggestions is most likely to hurt the normal player.
 

Jane Turner

Volunteer Moderator
It is not up to me to solve this problem, it is not me who try to solve this problem, but what I have seen, is that you do not seem to have a clue on what you are actually trying solve, and if your all over the place suggestions, do not hold up to basic scrutiny, then it is bad suggestions. and if you do not understand what the capabilites of current gen automatuion tools can do, then are bound to keep producing bad suggestions to solve the problem, just as DRM for the most part, hurts the honest buyer, your suggestions is most likely to hurt the normal player.
Sorry I thought you were sitting on some great ideas to avoid that risk.
 
A slow moving minigame similar to interdiction but quicker perhaps

Reminds me of an old Windows 95 virus I once had...
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Before we get any captchas in the game, I'd hope that we would get an onscreen keyboard for VR. However, I have signed the agreement as BGS/Powerplay botting is IMHO the ultimate form of in game skankiness. A lower bar, easy for a human to work around, but mildly difficult, but not impossible for a bot, would be to simply shuffle the menu items around. A human would see this and automatically select the right item, where as a script of keytaps, such as "one tap down to commodity market, space, 17 clicks down to chosen commodity, space, 256 clicks right (buying cargo), space, back, back, two down, space(to get to launch)" would get derailed. That being said, I have no doubt that the most determined bot scripters would simply move to Optical Character Recognition to "read" the screens the same way that humans do.

While there is undoubtedly a need to block bots, there needs to be checks in place to make sure it doesn't stymie honest players, or detract from their fun. This could be a tricky balance to achieve given the easier and less challenging therefore less frustrating a capctha control is, the easier it is to program a bot to get through it. On the otherhand, the more difficult, and thus more resilient such a captcha is, the more it will annoy the players. To find a sweetspot for this, I'd reckon you'd need to have the likelihood of encountering a captcha, and the severity of the challenge presented by that captcha scale to the level of suspicion that the antibot has that the "player" is in fact a bot.

The more repetitive,a task the "player" does, and the more regular the cadence with which a "player" does that task, the more likely they are indeed a bot. While this could be interpretted as meaning that someone doing cargo runs for a community goal, or genuine A->B trading would be more likely to be flagged up as being a bot, I'd argue that human behaviour is so inherently organic as to difuse that scenario. While an F1 driver can run on the ragged edge of their own bodies limitations, while also running their vehicles at the limits for a couple of hours straight, with a consistency that is accurate to a few hundredths of a second lap after lap, I'd reckon that most of us space monkeys arent that finely honed.

By simple virtue of being a slovenly space simming gamer rather than a finely tuned highly honed top tier athlete/driver/pilot, we will be varying in our "lap times" for even A->B runs by tens of seconds, if not minutes per loop. Such wide variances should discourage the bot-hunting algorithm from springing a captcha challenge on us. Another thing to help deter the captcha algorithm from bothering you could e as simple as dropping in on signal sources, those would require a bit of interpretation, as in if I'm loaded to the gunnels with high value cargo, am I likely to drop in on non human signal source or a weapons fire deteacted threatening signal source, I'd be far more likely to drop in on degraded or encoded emissions. But if I drop in on an encoded signal source and don't scan the data beacon, or on degraded / high-grade emissions and don't scoop the mats that I have space for, that's suspicious and could add to my bot-suspicion score.

Additional gameplay could also be introduced as a masked captcha challenge, drop in at a station and find a large navy ship, suhc as a cutter/vette/conda/capital-ship in instance with the space staton, with a horde of fighters barking orders. Those orders, or specifically your compliance with them would be the captcha, and the orders might be simple things for a human to do, but difficult for a bot to do and could include instructions such as:
  • stop immediately & prepare for detailed scanning
  • hold position X.Y km from the station and await further instruction
  • stop your approach and move to 1km from the stationary type-9 and await further instructions
Those simple challenges could be made more difficult for the bot if your docking pad assignment was suspended while you followed the orders you were given. Eventually, you'd get "ok - you may proceed to the starport." and a landing pad (re)assigned to you. Breeching those orders would be seen as a hostile act by the navy and the station, triggering the fighters + the large ship + the station to duly light you up.
 
One thing that those hyping the idea of 'botters, botters everywhere' have failed to account for is that we already have a system in-game which disrupts botting - NPC Interdiction

Or are you positing that the bots somehow manage to avoid getting interdicted too?

Secondly I have to question Jane Turners impartiality on this, as a moderator she seems to be catering to and defending the people hyping the presence of botters rather too much, and it is hype because as we should all be aware there is zero proof so far, just accusations, assumptions, and bias.
 
Sorry I thought you were sitting on some great ideas to avoid that risk.

You can't fix this in the way you go about, and I doubt this can be fixed based on how rapid AI software is emerging.

Take a look at this 4 year old video, and that was possible 4 years ago. what do you think have happened since then with Open AI? it have got alot better. things like OpenAI Five, beats top players in their own games.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI-I9i_GzIw





so just some time, more likely alot of time and persistence, you can use this against ANY game... and if you are suggesting that we should ban things like OpenAI being active while playing Elite, then it is just a little extra work to put this on a second computer, and use a webcam to get the screen, or even better, use the screenshoot option and the game creates the images for you, and all you need is to read those. (and delete them after use as they will take up alot of space). and then you only need to solve how to send keyboard and mouse inputs, and now there is nothing on the computer running Elite to be detected as any "forbidden" software.
 
No it wouldn't, how do you think they managed to navigate super cruise before super cruise assist? if you are to create solution for automated flight between two stations, then you need to deal with the super cruise part. and that will involve navigating around stuff like the star and planets. and the most obvious way to do that is to take a screenshot, or use a webcam pointed at the screen.. all the information needed is on the screen to act upon. and it must be there, as we the real players need the same information todo the same thing. There is commercial software that do exactly this, analyze a picture for specific things. and these things are getting better and better, and these tools are evolving and new ones created, and as time progress, more of these tools get an open source counterpart, they are not meant to make botting easier in games, but they have all the analysis stuff needed to read an image for for vital information.

and once you have figured out how navigate the super cruise, doing the actual docking is very easy, as you have a tool that will tell you how far in you need to fly, what direction your landing pad is, so fly in, rotate, and then use thrusters "down" to move towards your landing pad, and then some small adjustments is needed secure the landing. you never even have to see the landing hologram... or even bother about what landing pad you where assigned. all you need is to watch this little navigation tool...


so unless you plan to ruin the game for everyone, then there is very few things that would only affect botting.

You’re right, I didn’t realise that computer vision was being used for botting, having not ever considered or looked into it myself.

The only way to solve it then is to not draw any objects in the galaxy, and let players use their imagination, and just guess where stations and other things are. It’s harsh but fair, and overall necessary for the good of the game.
 
One thing that those hyping the idea of 'botters, botters everywhere' have failed to account for is that we already have a system in-game which disrupts botting - NPC Interdiction

Or are you positing that the bots somehow manage to avoid getting interdicted too?

Secondly I have to question Jane Turners impartiality on this, as a moderator she seems to be catering to and defending the people hyping the presence of botters rather too much, and it is hype because as we should all be aware there is zero proof so far, just accusations, assumptions, and bias.

🤔 Sounds like something a botter would say... 😛

But yes, there can be algorithms to beat interdiction, but what is probably happening is just a script to submit, boost, and activate the FSD as soon as it becomes available again.
 
Secondly I have to question Jane Turners impartiality on this, as a moderator she seems to be catering to and defending the people hyping the presence of botters rather too much, and it is hype because as we should all be aware there is zero proof so far, just accusations, assumptions, and bias.

I wouldn't get to hung up on them being a moderator. They are for all intense and purposes a hall monitor (no offence) to make sure people act accordingly on the forums. They have no insider knowledge of the inner workings of the game or Frontier as a company so they can be just as wrong about game mechanics as the next regular person who aint a moderator.
 
Having considered this again, I find the only way to mitigate the harmful aspects of botting would be to introduce botting into the game in the form of autopilot and set task looping, and then balance it on that basis.

If everyone can do it legitimately in game without any effort, it makes the efforts of bot scripters mostly redundant. Better still, if you could hire pilots and automate your fleet, that would introduce a new layer of strategy and gameplay.

Whether people would want to play such a game is another question entirely though. I’m 100% sure though that everyone who plays Elite would unconditionally support this idea.
 
That's going to be up next I think - currently we can detect total ship visits and times, but not unique commander numbers. You can divine bounties cashed and murders if you have been collecting data, but everything else is obscured to various degrees - so save your builds for when that one goes live.
So, the part I bolded reveals that you basically have no idea if there are any bots being used. This means you have no idea if there is a problem or not.
As has been suggested, if you suspect an account is using bots, report it to Frontier, and let them handle it. They are very clever people, more so than you it would seem (I am not suggesting you are stupid, just that Frontier are smarter).

I have yet to see any actual proof bots are being used, yes I've looked at the links, but they don't prove bots are being used. All I've seen is a lack of understanding how the game's BGS and Powerplay works.
 
I have yet to see any actual proof bots are being used, yes I've looked at the links, but they don't prove bots are being used. All I've seen is a lack of understanding how the game's BGS and Powerplay works.

tbf, conclusive proof of botting affecting bgs now is next to impossible with the possibilities at hand. meaning, asking for conclusive proof doesn't really make much sense.

however, bots are known to exist and assuming that they are being used to some extent is far from paranoia, actually a quite reasonable assumption.

i don't follow the bgs enough to know if this is actually a problem, but it is pretty obvious that if it were a problem then players would be largely at a loss here, since that falls entirely on frontier to manage, as you say. problem is that frontier has a jolly bad reputation on fixing this kind of arexeups, hence this whole discussion which is basically a call for attention. a dramatized open letter of sorts. 🤭
 
tbf, conclusive proof of botting affecting bgs now is next to impossible with the possibilities at hand. meaning, asking for conclusive proof doesn't really make much sense.

however, bots are known to exist and assuming that they are being used to some extent is far from paranoia, actually a quite reasonable assumption.

i don't follow the bgs enough to know if this is actually a problem, but it is pretty obvious that if it were a problem then players would be largely at a loss here, since that falls entirely on frontier to manage, as you say. problem is that frontier has a jolly bad reputation on fixing this kind of arexeups, hence this whole discussion which is basically a call for attention. a dramatized open letter of sorts. 🤭

That is the thing, noone is saying that there is no botting going on, but it is more about how big or small issue is.

I have posted stuff that supports both ends of the spectrum, how players can play "smarter" and from an outside perspective be seen as a bot, and then I have shown that there are tools out there to create your own bot, if you invest your time... then we have the recording of actions (button/key presses and mouse movements) that then can be replayed, etc.

So there is no denying that botting is possible todo, and there are tools out there to assist anyone to do it, and since it is possible we know that atleast some players are going to do it...


So now we are back at the crux here, how big or small is the actual issue? if the issue is small and only a few players do it, then I do not think it is worth to spend ALOT of time and resources trying to resolve that with new convoluted game mechanics, and if the problem is as widespread as it is suggested, then most of these suggestions would do little to fix that, as in the end, it is up to FDev to act on player reports of suspected activities, and if players refuse to report suspected activities, then how are FDev supposed to fix anything?
 
tbf, conclusive proof of botting affecting bgs now is next to impossible with the possibilities at hand. meaning, asking for conclusive proof doesn't really make much sense.

however, bots are known to exist and assuming that they are being used to some extent is far from paranoia, actually a quite reasonable assumption.
Ok stop there .... let me break down what you said and maybe you can see the problem here.

"tbf, conclusive proof of botting affecting bgs now is next to impossible with the possibilities at hand" Is you saying you can't prove bots are affecting the BGS

"meaning, asking for conclusive proof doesn't really make much sense." But if you are going to petition Frontier to make changes to combat a bot problem, you had better have conclusive proof there is a bot problem. You just said you can't prove it.

"however, bots are known to exist" OK, prove it. If they are known to exist then it can be proven.

"and assuming that they are being used to some extent is far from paranoia, actually a quite reasonable assumption." Have you ever heard the saying "when you assume something you make an (insert another word for a donkey here, I'd put it here, but the forum's profanity filter doesn't like those three letters) out of you and me"? You cannot base changing the game to combat a supposed bot problem on an assumption. You absolutely need to prove these things or Frontier will simply laugh at you.

EDIT: I am not against removing bots from the game. I support it, but I have constantly asked in this thread for proof either there are bots or it's a problem, and I have yet to be shown anything I can honestly say is proof. If you can't convince me, you certainly are not going to convince Frontier.
 
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That is the thing, noone is saying that there is no botting going on, but it is more about how big or small issue is.

I have posted stuff that supports both ends of the spectrum, how players can play "smarter" and from an outside perspective be seen as a bot, and then I have shown that there are tools out there to create your own bot, if you invest your time... then we have the recording of actions (button/key presses and mouse movements) that then can be replayed, etc.

So there is no denying that botting is possible todo, and there are tools out there to assist anyone to do it, and since it is possible we know that atleast some players are going to do it...


So now we are back at the crux here, how big or small is the actual issue? if the issue is small and only a few players do it, then I do not think it is worth to spend ALOT of time and resources trying to resolve that with new convoluted game mechanics, and if the problem is as widespread as it is suggested, then most of these suggestions would do little to fix that, as in the end, it is up to FDev to act on player reports of suspected activities, and if players refuse to report suspected activities, then how are FDev supposed to fix anything?
I read this post and you may as well say "Stop players from using Voice Attack" I don't see you literally saying that, but that's what you are saying in effect.
 
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Ok stop there .... let me break down what you said and maybe you can see the problem here.

"tbf, conclusive proof of botting affecting bgs now is next to impossible with the possibilities at hand" Is you saying you can't prove bots are affecting the BGS

coming up with actual evidence is very hard for practical reasons. very strong claims could be made but you might plausibly deny any of them. so, i repeat, asking for irrefutable evidence is disingenuous at best: you are not trying to understand or get understood, just to dismiss the issue.

But if you are going to petition Frontier to make changes to combat a bot problem, you had better have conclusive proof there is a bot problem. You just said you can't prove it.

there is evidence enough that the game is bottable and cheatable galore. for that i hold frontier responsible, yes, although i don't expect anything because in that regard their track record is abysmal. and i personally couldn't care less about the effects on bgs. so no agenda, i'm just discussing the issue.

"however, bots are known to exist" OK, prove it. If they are known to exist then it can be proven.

well, don't have any links at hand and don't want to repeat what has been said already repeatedly. if you have doubts about this i wonder what you angle even is in this discussion. how about you do your own research if you want to discuss the topic, ideally before making bold claims that don't make much sense?

I have constantly asked in this thread for proof either there are bots or it's a problem, and I have yet to be shown anything I can honestly say is proof. If you can't convince me, you certainly are not going to convince Frontier.

you won't find that proof, i just told you so. anyway, good luck! :ROFLMAO:
 
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