How to make players WANT to do Powerplay PVP

The trouble with pvp is this; there's no incentive for the losing side.

Say you're an admittedly mediocre player. You may have some faint desire to engage in pvp, but if you join open and attack someone else and lose - which, lets face it, you probably will - you not only have to eat a rebuy, you've actively helped your enemy by giving them Merits, or just sated their bloodlust.

This functionally biases the game entirely towards the top 1-5% of combat players, who can kill everyone else, while neglecting the other 95%. Even if you're in the top 90%, you probably still don't want to play, because most players less skilled than you aren't participating due to getting slaughtered by the most skilled pilots, while you're left to consistently barely lose.

What is needed, is a system that encourages players such as this to participate even if they lose. A system where even eating a rebuy can be a positive thing.





Pilots Federation Combat Ranking

With this in mind, here's the idea; remove the concept of killing enemy players for any direct benefit. Instead, each week, players compete on a leaderboard of top pvp players.

The game calculates your win/loss ratio against enemy players and uses this to assign you a rank.
(The method via which this rank is calculated would be somewhat obfuscated; killing weak players might give less of a benefit than killing highly-ranked players, for example. These modifiers would largely be hidden, with delays in place, and occasionally automatically rerolled, to ensure players are less able to game the system.)

This rank, then, rewards players with a certain amount of points for their faction, with the top players getting the largest amount of points, and lower ranks giving correspondingly lower amounts of points. These points function fundamentally as merits, obviously rebalanced to ensure they're competitive with other sources of merits.

But, very importantly, participating at all, even if it means just getting killed by an enemy player, still assigns players a rank. Even the lowest possible rank would reward that player with a small amount of points for their faction.




Result

What is the desired result of this? It means that players are always encouraged to participate in pvp, even if they lose. Worst case, they have still earned their Power a small number of points, while minimally helping their enemy. Best case, they might actively rise up the ranks, especially since there will likely be other players doing the exact same thing as them. A high-ranking player wouldn't get much of anything from killing a top 100% player, but another top 100% player might go up to top 90%, and increase their points correspondingly.

Very Importantly, the total amount of available points should never singlehandedly determine a conflict.

PVP should be one aspect of Powerplay, not the dominant aspect. If a faction has really good pvpers, but inferior haulers, additional effort from the haulers in solo or private groups should be sufficient to overwhelm the pvpers.

But by giving players a reason to engage in pvp like this, it could enhance the competitive pvp aspect of the game, and encourage newer players to get their foot in the door, without establishing an inordinate dominance for pvp that might drive those same potential players away.
 
The trouble with pvp is this; ED wasn't built for it.

the load of grind just to get a viable ship before you even really start in pvp.

there is no real variation there really is only one ship and on top of that only a small handful of viable fits.

FDev has approached pvp with a "it's there if you want it" mentality. They hardly even bother to ballance things agreed to be broken by nearly all involved because they only care if they are balanced in solo/small cooperative group. If you're looking for a hard core pvp focused game, that game isn't elite.
 
the load of grind just to get a viable ship before you even really start in pvp.

there is no real variation there really is only one ship and on top of that only a small handful of viable fits.

FDev has approached pvp with a "it's there if you want it" mentality. They hardly even bother to ballance things agreed to be broken by nearly all involved because they only care if they are balanced in solo/small cooperative group. If you're looking for a hard core pvp focused game, that game isn't elite.
And that approach is exactly what I want to maintain. A reward small enough that you're not penalized if you don't want to participate, but a reward nonetheless, and no punishment if you do participate and lose.

Honestly, there's really not that much grind to participate in basic pvp. The problem, is that most pvpers are the top 1% of combat pilots, and at the top 1%, only the best ships are competitive, which means a fully engineered ship at the least, and probably a FDL as well.

But when you take away the punishments for participation and instead reward players for it, then suddenly smaller, cheaper ships actually become a fantastic option. You can get experience, with minimal rebuys, and heck, maybe you'll work up the ranks from top 100% to top 80%! Maybe you just outfit a Cobra or even a Sidewinder and go fight other players in sidewinders too. Sure, maybe some top 10% player will come along and blow you away, but they get nothing for it, while they're actively preventing their own team's lower-ranked players from ranking up.

What you end up with is high-rank players fighting other high-rank players for the top 10, while low-rank players fight other low-rank players for ranks 90%-20%. And in my mind, that's exactly how pvp should be.
 
It could be cynically farmed a little I think, but you could factor in rebuy value to make sure that it's expensive to do that. I like the way it incentivises rank matching the players you attack (again slightly exploitable with harmless alts though). Also I'd confine the leaderboards to a particular objective - e.g. counting kills within each expansion/control system/capital separately for merits toward each, to localise it to an already-contested theatre. One worry is the weaker side have no incentive to engage since they'll just (net) award points to the opponent each week.

For me if you want to change engagement with PvP, create a new paradigm of PvP, running parallel to the one we have. For instance, "scan and escape" at some choke point. A simple sensor scan at minimum but with more reward for a data scan, more still for a limpet hack. This is a good fit for something like an "espionage" concept, stealing data from a player data courier.

Penalise killing on either side (some "diplomatic" cost in merits) until there's stolen data or shots landed. Tracking the hacker back to their secret hand-in contact earns good merits, esp for a successful attack on the contact. The contact is some longish distance in LY away. This might favour fast ships with high jump on both sides. You could have seeker FSD disrupts (or other things) to make encounters into more of a prolonged "wrestle", but that have weak effects against larger ships.

This is one, untested idea. But something where the rules are maybe more forgiving on ship, loadout, skills, and shape the nature of the engagement differently from the usual ship A kill ship B repeat (well really in PP it's a hunter/prey model which as a hauler/UMer I can say is already fun, but anyway) would be interesting.
 
Last edited:
And that approach is exactly what I want to maintain. A reward small enough that you're not penalized if you don't want to participate, but a reward nonetheless, and no punishment if you do participate and lose.

Honestly, there's really not that much grind to participate in basic pvp. The problem, is that most pvpers are the top 1% of combat pilots, and at the top 1%, only the best ships are competitive, which means a fully engineered ship at the least, and probably a FDL as well.

But when you take away the punishments for participation and instead reward players for it, then suddenly smaller, cheaper ships actually become a fantastic option. You can get experience, with minimal rebuys, and heck, maybe you'll work up the ranks from top 100% to top 80%! Maybe you just outfit a Cobra or even a Sidewinder and go fight other players in sidewinders too. Sure, maybe some top 10% player will come along and blow you away, but they get nothing for it, while they're actively preventing their own team's lower-ranked players from ranking up.

What you end up with is high-rank players fighting other high-rank players for the top 10, while low-rank players fight other low-rank players for ranks 90%-20%. And in my mind, that's exactly how pvp should be.


No... pvp players would still just attack any target and anyone else wouldn't sudenly feel "oh now pvp is worth it" because they could get the same result from a few hours of hauling rather than months of engineer grinding followed by months of "getting gud" along with the months IRL to save up for a competitive impute method.


PvP isn't largly avoided because players aren't getting any "points" when the lose its because pvp isn't balanced in the slightest and this does not fix that.
 
No... pvp players would still just attack any target and anyone else wouldn't sudenly feel "oh now pvp is worth it" because they could get the same result from a few hours of hauling rather than months of engineer grinding followed by months of "getting gud" along with the months IRL to save up for a competitive impute method.


PvP isn't largly avoided because players aren't getting any "points" when the lose its because pvp isn't balanced in the slightest and this does not fix that.
Nah. Worst case, the player dies and slightly helps their own faction. It takes absolutely no engineering to achieve that.

Meanwhile, if both sides have competent pvpers, the side that doesn't seal club, and instead allows their own lower-skill members to participate, would end up winning 100% of the time.

There are literally no downsides. Everything remains completely voluntary. Players are encouraged to engage with other players of similar skill level. Everyone wins.
 
Main question is why to do PP at all in 1st place? :) I never bothered. As I don't play pvp (well hard to find people out there, or even NPC) I don't need their rewards which are strictly for pvp. For pve better to have, for example, biwave, which allows to farm 5 hours without going to SC.
 
Nah. Worst case, the player dies and slightly helps their own faction. It takes absolutely no engineering to achieve that.

Meanwhile, if both sides have competent pvpers, the side that doesn't seal club, and instead allows their own lower-skill members to participate, would end up winning 100% of the time.

no... because they won't be helping as much as if they were just moving cargo and as such are hindering the faction not helping. that would be what is called an opportunity cost


and the side that doesn't seal club... as if entire sides are actually working together and its not at best a small number of small groups on each side independently organizing while the majority are simply solo and will attack anyone because the primary motivation stays the pvp gameplay not the leaderboard and ranks.
 
no... because they won't be helping as much as if they were just moving cargo and as such are hindering the faction not helping. that would be what is called an opportunity cost


and the side that doesn't seal club... as if entire sides are actually working together and its not at best a small number of small groups on each side independently organizing while the majority are simply solo and will attack anyone because the primary motivation stays the pvp gameplay not the leaderboard and ranks.
It's not like you have to pick one or the other. You could just haul in open, eventually get killed, and get your reward.

As far as motivating PVP players is concerned, I think that comes more down to rearranging power play to give better Rewards. There's really not much incentive to win at the moment. Fix that, you'll fix a half dozen other problems at the same time.
 
Main question is why to do PP at all in 1st place? :) I never bothered. As I don't play pvp (well hard to find people out there, or even NPC) I don't need their rewards which are strictly for pvp. For pve better to have, for example, biwave, which allows to farm 5 hours without going to SC.
You're not wrong; power-play definitely needs more integration with the universe, encouraging players to compete even when their main focus isn't competition. But that's a much larger suggestion; I'm just trying to fix one small particular issue, at the moment.
 
It's not like you have to pick one or the other. You could just haul in open, eventually get killed, and get your reward.
and is this reward going to be higher than had I delivered the haul?

If no then again no point

If yes welcome to farming
 
because pack hounds are fun and prismatic are great for trading.
For trading 6C works just fine on cutter. Cutter can handle any pirate attacking.
Pack hound is pvp only too. Other missiles I use on cutter though, because it is trader and need to kill 1 pirate only.
 
No, it would make wanting to win even more important. Which results in more:
  • Combat loggers. Deny your enemy the points, preserve your own!
  • Cheaters. You absolutely WANT to win, so you make sure you WILL!
  • Blockers/Firewallers. Block the progamers so they don't instance with you at all.
  • Griefers. Minimal points are better than no points, plus if you can get minimal points faster and with more certainty than a fat stack of high points, guess what will be farmed the most.
 
Last edited:
For trading 6C works just fine on cutter. Cutter can handle any pirate attacking.
Pack hound is pvp only too. Other missiles I use on cutter though, because it is trader and need to kill 1 pirate only.
the prismatic is for a T9 why would you use a cutter if you are going to use a shield. Its also not for pirates its for bashing against the station when boosting out if you aren't aligned. A prismatic will cause no hull damage.

Also I said pack hounds were fun not better.
 
No, it would make wanting to win even more important. Which results in more:
  • Combat loggers. Deny your enemy the points, preserve your own!
  • Cheaters. You absolutely WANT to win, so you make sure you WILL!
  • Blockers/Firewallers. Block the progamers so they don't instance with you at all.
  • Griefers. Minimal points are better than no points, plus if you can get minimal points faster and with more certainty than a fat stack of high points, guess what will be farmed the most.
Not really. You would only get the points once; at the end of the week. So it doesn't motivate killing lots of people at all. The opposite, if anything.
 
and is this reward going to be higher than had I delivered the haul?

If no then again no point

If yes welcome to farming

Probably, they should be worth more than the haul, yeah. But you only get them once, so there's no way to farm anything. There wouldn't be motivation to die more than once, admittedly, but right now, there's no motivation to ever die at all. So it's still an improvement.

And if you think you can get up a little higher in rank you might participate more. Maybe not, but so what? You'd still have more people participating on the whole.
 
Not really. You would only get the points once; at the end of the week. So it doesn't motivate killing lots of people at all. The opposite, if anything.
Doesn't matter if now, in a week, in a month or a year. If people get rewarded for that behaviour, they will do it.
 
Last edited:
OP, did you even played PP?

Non of your proposals will fix anything, but create even bigger problems. You just need to understand, FD will not touch it. It's too much time end effort investment, for such extreme risk, and there are no guarantee that it would worth it. They already created multicrew, and felt instant regret after.
 
Back
Top Bottom