Community Event / Creation Implications of zero-G

[Darren Grey]

To me it doesn't feel like space if there's artificial gravity. The weightless movement of characters helps reinforce the intrinsic vulnerability of travelling about in tin cans in an endless vacuum. Of course sci-fi TV has given us this strange idea that being in space is like being down the Queen Vic...

But, of course, things might change. If walking about the ship is to happen in future expansions then I can't imagine it working well without gravity.

 

[Hanni79]

Actually I would love to see artificial gravity dependant on local Tech Level. Otherwise those Coriolis stations would make no sense. But I love them because they are so hard to land at manually, which I would totally miss

Also, having artificial gravity always comes around with the implication that there is a chance it might fail, which could be used for story events and maybe other stuff.

If walking about the ship is to happen in future expansions then I can't imagine it working well without gravity.

Since this is planned, I think it wouldn't be wise to leave artificial gravity out of the game at start and then introduce it later, which seems necessary to me, too.

 

[Darren Grey]

Or it could be an immense power drain so is used sparingly, etc. There is lots of flexibility and potential on a not 100% ubiquitous technology.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

well, as a fan writer i'm seriously thinking of pulling a shades of grey and abandoning the universe all together

details like this will mean that my book is not accessible to people who are not fans of the game and i don't want to confine my readership to a hardcore few thousand who swallow the lack of AG & ID's in my story.

I would like it to stay in the elite universe as that is where it was born but unless deficiencies such as this are addressed i can't see a future for fan fiction that is anymore than just fan and has no wider appeal

that would be a shame as it was reading the dark wheel that got me so hooked on the original game way back when.

if the lore were more credible it might bring new players into the game just from enjoying the Elite experience in a book as i did.

this may also put off players from other genres like flight sim combat games as being used to pulling high gees in those they wont be able to suspend disbelief enough to enjoy this one.

That be any help?

 

[krisavery]

Ignore this post. Asking stupid questions

 

[kaserei]

... I think it wouldn't be wise to leave artificial gravity out of the game at start and then introduce it later, which seems necessary to me, too.

I know I'd prefer to stand in a HD version of a Coriolis station interior, looking out of the view ports at a slowly revolving planetary system, rather than another version of X:btf with a fixed backdrop. It would just feel more "right".

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

It brings up a serious question though, will adding artificial gravity increase the games attraction?

 

[Darren Grey]

Can we avoid discussion of implications of the game here? Not the right place. The Elite: Dangerous General forum is for the panic and hyperbole threads.

For the fiction we'll have to wait and see, but I think people shouldn't worry so much. You're writing a story set in space - prepare to have to deal with spacey things.

 

[drew]

It brings up a serious question though, will adding artificial gravity increase the games attraction?

I don't think you're appreciating the gravity of your situation.

 

[kaserei]

It brings up a serious question though, will adding artificial gravity increase the games attraction?

I guess that depends on if it has a real impact on game play, which I doubt. For the purposes of back stories like yours I think it is more important that whatever is in game, can be reconciled with your realities. But you knew that.

Comparing to Eve online (again but in a positive light) I have no idea what the crew has to suffer while I am snug in my liquid filled POD, plugged into systems, like a battery in the matrix. And that missing knowledge didn't affect my enjoyment of the game. Not even the fact that I didn't know that I might actually have a disposable crew of hundreds on board. Of course I also enjoyed finding that out from back story AFTER I played for over a year. That particular back story did break continuity with the previous story that the POD, and it's g-force negating technology was what allowed ships to manoeuvre at the speeds required for combat. This then instantly making traditional crewed ships obsolete as they could not compete with such agility without killing their crews.

With such a broken back story the game is still good. But the back story comes AFTER the games merits are seen by players and I at least can live with the discontinuities. This whole suspension of reality and discontinuity discussion deserves it's own thread really. Back on topic, my vote is for traditional artificial gravity, with none in our ships, and spinny stations because docking is more fun(ny).

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

I don't think you're appreciating the gravity of your situation.

Yes, there is a heavy weight of opinion against the idea, i'm finding it hard to attract supporters to it

 

[jptreen]

Zero-G implications. Firstly, I think Frontier will probably sort this out when they give their guidance. It's the kind of thing they'll be thinking about too!

As for this discussion: I don't think any of the issues raised need be any kind of deal at all. Here's what I think we can say based on the knowledge we have:

a) We've clearly found effective ways to ameliorate the long term affects of Zero-G on the human body.

b) We've probably got holographic representation or at least video link on our HUD of other people on-ship (snappy dialogue, facial expressions).

c) Your actual life is never encumbered by having to 'hurry into the safe zone', because if ever a situation arises where you may be needed there you either have enough time to get there or you're there as a matter of SOP.

d) Space in 'Elite' is still a very scary, dangerous place. It's not a 'Star Trek' type universe. In 'Elite', planets, stations, and pilots are not cruising the med, they're single-handing the Roaring Forties with a cracked boom.

I think the above pretty much follows from what we already know, including:

a) there is no Zero-G on ships
and
b) ships can stay out in space for a year at a time
and
c) these ships land on planets and stations with gravity or gravity effect.
and
d) the crews take shore leave in the areas specified in 'c)'.
and
e) we assume that spacefarers don't have significantly reduced life expectancy (barring mis-jumps, piracy and the like).
f) everything will now happen "very fast or near instantaneously" because of the multiplayer element.
g) space is very big - you spot incoming threats from far further away than they can actually hurt you.

In short. No big deal.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

I've got a few miscellaneous points for this thread. Some of them walk the line between DDF stuff and writer stuff, so as a plain old duffer I'd appreciate advice on what people find helpful and what's just treading on toes.

Michael has previously said the writer's bible will be available both to the DDF and the writers. I hope there will be a fair amount of open discussion between the groups, but I can see how this would be useful - if the writers are all convinced there's a super-secret plot twist that requires a particular thing to work in a particular way, writing it obliquely in the bible at least lets everyone know what's up.

Purely from a realism perspective, I don't see how space ships could be designed without assuming all surfaces can be floors, walls and ceilings at different times. Aside from being cut in half by the dinner table when you make a sudden sideways course correction, what happens if you come out of a fight with only your starboard maneuvering thruster still working? You'll have to eat food off the curtain rail some day, you might as well make a feature out of it.

Some aspects of how gravity works will be dictated by gameplay. Frontier have signalled an interest in having people sneak around inside ships in flight, which would need more than magnetic boots for the reasons Drew outlined. Personally I don't see how it's fun to be yanked out of the dogfight you're enjoying and into an FPS you didn't ask for, which might argue for playing up the bone-crunchiness of the problem and only sneaking when ships are stationary. I apologise in advance if this ends up with me digging a hole in a DDF thread for you guys to write us out of.

Similarly, you may want to keep an eye on the starter ships to make sure you can tell the stories you want. I don't have any information on the matter, but my instinct is that Frontier will quiz the DDF about the 25 playable ships to launch with, the DDF will ask for classic ships and Frontier artists will want to write flashy new whizz-bang ships. It'll be pretty easy for the DDF to shrug that off as independent worlds cranking out proven designs while Empire and Federation are locked in an arms race, but I would expect that to have quite a big impact on writers. Now you've got to convey "old rust-bucket", "latest in a proud lineage", "technological marvel of the age", "bleeding edge technology doesn't work", etc. I don't know if that sounds inspiring or terrifying, but it certainly feels to me like somewhere the DDF can help writers out if we know what you want.

 

[Kerrash]

Not sure if it is relevant, but I did menthol in another post about the use of an Alcubierre warp drive to provide higher apparent G forces from an external view point, I.e. upto ten times multiplication factor.

This would explain the dev video showing ships that do not use a Newtonian flight model and would help to bring internal G forces back to a manageable range.

 

[kaserei]

Not sure if it is relevant, but I did menthol in another post about the use of an Alcubierre warp drive to provide higher apparent G forces from an external view point, I.e. upto ten times multiplication factor.

This would explain the dev video showing ships that do not use a Newtonian flight model and would help to bring internal G forces back to a manageable range.

This might add the difficult question of why, with true potential of faster than light travel (without the instantaneous circumvention of movement using "hyperspace" associated with the already established ship hyperdrives), do people living in the C32 not have the ability to time travel?

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

This might add the difficult question of why, with true potential of faster than light travel (without the instantaneous circumvention of movement using "hyperspace" associated with the already established ship hyperdrives), do people living in the C32 not have the ability to time travel?

Ahh, but how do you know they don't just keep it top secret for one of our lead to use?

As for starter ships a few (long range cobra mk3) were mention on KS in the pledge levels

 

[RobFisher]

While I think jptreen is onto something, I don't think I could manage much more than a vague plot outline from what we know so far. Hopefully details will be forthcoming.

Reading this thread reminded me of this video, which is a nice long tour of the ISS given by an astronaut, all in HD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doN4t5NKW-k

Watch it carefully. You can see how she moves around. She discusses things like sleeping and the way up and down are readily interchangeable (which makes the concept art posted above curious indeed, until you remember that these ships also land on planets).

Finally there is an assumption above that combat will be high G. But these ships are not fighter jets; there is no atmosphere, so nothing to push against. It seems to me more plausible that rocket motors will be doing well to apply even one G. I suspect hyperspace-type travel is used for all but combat and navigating near stations, otherwise it would take too long to get anywhere.

But I am guessing, of course. So two details that need nailing down are: 1) how many Gs does a space ship accelerate at and 2) how does in system travel work?

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

unfortunately being in a vacuum has no effect on g forces at all so its a faulty premise. g force is caused by a rapid acceleration or change of direction and is the result of inertia acting on the body. I dont know how many gees the ships will accelerate at but it will still be a problem as that's not what causes the main concern about it

for example if i was in my Cobra three and i hit the throttle taking me from 0 to top speed inertia would try and keep me still and so i would be squashed into the back of the pilots chair.

if i then pulled back the flight yolk and sent my ship into a steep climb all my inertia is still moving forwards and so i would be forced down into the base of the pilots seat and may black out as all the blood drains from my head. this is the main problem and why it breaks the narrative as blackouts can happen at quite low gees.

hope this gives you a better understanding of how g-forces work and why protection against them is so important to both the narrative of the game and the fiction that draws from it

 

[Hanni79]

I think a lot of people here will find this one interesting :

Frame Effects and Space Stations

This is the Main page, it has a lot more interesting stuff about the Coriolis Effect itself.

It's a nice summary of the forces at work here and shows some of the common complications.
Might be especially interesting to writers, if they for example would like to use the movement conditions in the Coriolis ring in fighting situations and stuff

I think it's obvious why I repost that here, especially the first Link contains lots of interesting stuff about Coriolis stations I hope you enjoy it.

 

[Dr Wookie]

Hi guys, I'm one of those physics buffs (MPhys(Hons) Physics with Astrophysics, PhD High Energy Astrophysics), and I have an idea. I'm used to the fast paced DDF needing post-and run-tactics, so apologies if I repeat anyone's ideas

- The main problem with sudden impacts etc. is the so-called impulse (force over time). The reason why high speed collisions are so devastating is that your speed changes drastically over an extremely short time; airbags work by making the deceleration slower (same force over a longer time = lower impulse).

- A moving body will carry on in a straight line so long as no forces are acting on it. Any change in speed or direction is acceleration, and requires force. However, it may be possible for some system to spread that force over longer times than they actually happen in.

- There could be two hulls, with a damping fluid/shock absorbers between the inner hull and the outer hull; this would be like silastoplaston for the whole interior. Maybe the some of the energy in the smashing fluidy bit could go towards powering the ship (on a side note, I'm in the US and suddenly pining for Jaffa Cakes).

- In the case of transparent cockpit windows, as seen in some concept art, the window would be in the outer hull; so long as you don't have anything connecting the window to the cabin, you'd be OK

- This would allow an open interior structure with movement between the cockpit and bunk etc, maybe connection to any passenger bits during normal flight. I can imaging uneventful space travel would involve long periods without acceleration .

- However, equipment, food etc would be in well-secured containers.

- Just like airlines however, it might be recommended for everyone to be belted into their seat just in case of sudden movements (such as pirate attack).

- In one of the DDF threads, someone from FD said this in reply to a question (I'm paraphrasing here): a person orbiting the Sun will never be in the same instance as someone orbiting the Earth. This suggests that we will be jumping between celestial bodies within a system (star, planets etc.) as well as between star systems. This allows for much slower real-space travel and less powerful thrusters.

- Even with an open interior, I would expect space to be at a premium, with every inch used

- There will be some up/down orientation when docked or planetside, and I am sure that this will be factored into designs of the interiors; however, there's nothing to prevent us from using the walls and ceilings.

- I hope this can be of some use