On my seeming constant disconnect with "The Forum"

I say it because it's a misconception, and we have a black skybox now that is unrealistically dark, and I hope it's changed back.

I'm sorry if I'm a bit defensive on that.

Isn't that just because of gamma issues?

If you play Horizons on VA or OLED (like a TV or CV1 headset), you'll notice that there is a lot of strange looking space dust sprinkled in. They did mention fixing that in Odyssey but I don't think that fix is the issue you're experiencing.
 
Isn't that just because of gamma issues?

If you play Horizons on VA or OLED (like a TV or CV1 headset), you'll notice that there is a lot of strange looking space dust sprinkled in. They did mention fixing that in Odyssey but I don't think that fix is the issue you're experiencing.
No idea. gamma is maxed. It's just pitch black with white dot for a skybox.
 
Nope. It's full of stars, and probably very white near the center of the galaxy. It's only black when you live in a city, with a spotlight 3m away of your face.

I make sure to calibrate my displays so any black crush is removed and I can see the darker shades that I'm supposed to be able to see, and I jack up the star instance count to get an appropriately populated sky, but stuff that is supposed to be black should still be black.

That's where IPS and TN panels really fall short vs. VA (unless you have FALD) best contrast ratio you can realistically get out of a conventionally backlit IPS display is 1000:1. Even a bad VA panel is twice that. Of course, OLED is vastly superior in this regard (and many others) to VA, but longevity is still an issue, and cost, especially if you can find a high refresh rate panel, is a major concern.

Isn't that just because of gamma issues?

Something with how the image is composited is zeroing out the lower levels of luminance. Some people might prefer it this way, but it's not how it's supposed to look, and results in the game drawing stuff that is impossible to see by the time it's fully rendered.
 
I make sure to calibrate my displays so any black crush is removed and I can see the darker shades that I'm supposed to be able to see, and I jack up the star instance count to get an appropriately populated sky, but stuff that is supposed to be black should still be black.

That's where IPS and TN panels really fall short vs. VA (unless you have FALD) best contrast ratio you can realistically get out of a conventionally backlit IPS display is 1000:1. Even a bad VA panel is twice that. Of course, OLED is vastly superior in this regard (and many others) to VA, but longevity is still an issue, and cost, especially if you can find a high refresh rate panel, is a major concern.
Yeah, huh, I fully understood that part, but my friend is a bit limited in all the technical stuff and didn't get it entirely. I'm sorry.
 
This summer will be my fourth year on the forum and a little more than that in game and with the release of Odyssey, I find myself - again - at loggerheads with the forum zeitgeist. I have never in my life had such cognitive disconnect and seen such a disparity of what I am told is "happening" in a game vs. what I am experiencing.

For years it was the "Open is a gankfest and is ruining the game" rhetoric. At the time I was on XBox and I thought to myself, it must be happening on PC. Well, I migrated to PC a few years ago and I find myself largely unganked. Sure, there are seal clubbers and murderhobo's out there, but I see them very rarely...even in Deciat.

And now, it's reached a fever pitch. Whether it's demanding public apologies or wielding the word "refund" as a cudgel, the carping and shouting has just become too much. I keep seeing that the game is "literally unplayable." "FPS is garbage" "Cancer"...what have you. Even system chat is littered with people moaning. I can't escape it.

And here I am, on an i7, 16gb RAM, GTX 1070 several year old laptop and....well....the game is running just fine. Sure, it was a little stutter-ish in the tutorial during the firefight, but it was certainly playable. Not a single Orange Sidewinder, nothing. I don't particularly like the UI, but I suppose it's more that it's just different than anything else. Although it did take me a fair few minutes to work out how to put a stored module back on a ship.

Obviously, people are having issues. I don't think they're making it up...at least I hope they aren't. To be frank, I can't help but think a lot of this is self inflicted. If Horizons was already running poorly on your machine then maybe that's why Odyssey is a slideshow. And how that is anyone's fault other than your own is beyond me.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this post is now that I'm several paragraphs in, other than to say that I like Odyssey and I wish people would simmer down. So much strong language is being thrown around and I think we are forgetting that there's a human presence behind all this that must be taking a beating. I've bought my suits, done a few missions, and am largely pleased...I guess I'm just sorry that the rest of the forum isn't.


Fly aimless, CMDR's. o7
I've had issues, sure. Complained a bit, sure. But in the end, it's just a game, not some horrific crime I must publicly decry. It's getting better and the people who've spent years developing it (quite a bit from home during a pandemic) have been knocking themselves out to correct its shortcomings. It wasn't a good launch, but it and the developers sure hasn't deserved the bile spewed at them.

Also I want to give a public thank you to the support staff who rescued my commander this morning from a rogue Apex pilot.
 
lol what?
That's where IPS and TN panels really fall short vs. VA (unless you have FALD) best contrast ratio you can realistically get out of a conventionally backlit IPS display is 1000:1. Even a bad VA panel is twice that. Of course, OLED is vastly superior in this regard (and many others) to VA,
My friend really struggle with that part. It's full of stuff. I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe it's obvious for everyone but me. I mean, my friend.
 
My friend really struggle with that part. It's full of stuff. I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe it's obvious for everyone but me. I mean, my friend.

Ohh! Sorry if I came across rude (was actually already ninja editing my post lol). I didn't get that you were joking about your "friend" hehe.
 
Gotta take a couple issues with this.

1) The overwhelming flood of negativity all but guarantees EDO has some pretty strong underlying issues. It's not just a hardware issue and, increasingly, a good deal of external research is showing that EDO is indeed not optimized, hence the disparate impact it's having.

Where there is smoke there is fire is actually falacious reasoning. There are issues, I don't think thats in dispute anywhere. So I find folks acting like people are not agreeing or seeing issues pretty disengenious.

The issues don't make the game unplayable. There have been some, more than usual, outages. Part of that is record user counts part is the communication errors Brayben talked about, some might be optimization but I'll remain Hella skeptical of research on a product from the outside.


2) Squeaky wheels make noise, oiled wheels don't. This has been the case for time immemorial.....

I agree but the tall nail also gets the hammer.

If you don't like it, don't engage in it...

However the irony here is past 11. The naked hypocrisy I hope is unintentional. Supporting people who don't like a game complaining but not people who hold the other opinion?

The forums are 1% or less 9f any active player playerbase but its for everyone who wants to talk publicly with other enthusiasts not just for negative venting.

If you don't like it, act in a manner you expect will have an effect to change it.

3) I've said it a thousand times across hundreds of game forums...nobody asked you to defend the product. YOU DIDN'T BUILD IT. Why anyone rushes to the defense - or even tacitly defends - a company is beyond me. It doesn't mean your silence is accepting unfair criticism. ....

I don't have to be paid to defend a product if I like it, anymore than I need to be paid to criticize it if I don't.

If I see a thing I enjoy being unfairly criticized I'll speak up because it's a public perception I care to throw my voice against.

Again you seem to have a strong double standard, critics should voice criticism but those who are happy should remain silent?

I'm generally a product advocate for things I like because that activity pumps sales, and that extends the life of the products I want to see continue living.

If I'm critical in also trying to make changes to extend the life of a thing I enjoy, or I'm dropping one bomb and I'm gone for a product I want to warn others about.

One ongoing theme I'm seeing is people who are critical of the game don't want to be criticized themselves. Thats a double standard no one should be comfortable with.
 
Yeah, huh, I fully understood that part, but my friend is a bit limited in all the technical stuff and didn't get it entirely. I'm sorry.

Uh, let me see if I can break it down, for our other viewers, and your friend.

Three main types of LCD:

  • TN (fast, but crap view angles, less than accurate color, and poor contrast ratios)
  • IPS (potentially fast, best view angles, generally good color, still poor contrast ratio)
  • VA (slowest, with some exceptions; middle of the road view angles and color, best contrast)

LCDs aren't electroemissive, they don't make light, they selectively block it. So, you need a backlight. VA can block the most light so have the highest native contrast ratio. Both TN and IPS panels will look grey rather than black in a dark room, unless brightness is very low (which also hurts contrast).

Local dimming is a way around this. It allows selective dimming of the backlight to increase effective contrast. Edge dimming is common, but has so few zones that it's mostly a gimmick. FALD (full array local dimming) can be much more effective, if the number of zones is high enough.

Electroemissive displays (currently microLED or OLED, mostly) don't have this issue and can have enormous native contrast ratios because when they are off they are off (black luminace is zero not whatever leaks through from a backlight).

I like VA panels for space games because space games usually have a lot of dark and VA does dark well.
 
One ongoing theme I'm seeing is people who are critical of the game don't want to be criticized themselves. Thats a double standard no one should be comfortable with.

Yeah I think this really the heart of the issue here.

Criticising people for having a bad experience with a broken piece of software is very odd behavior IMO. I've seen you engage in it continuously over the past days. I've barely seen it happen in reverse, if at all.
 
Uh, let me see if I can break it down, for our other viewers, and your friend.

Three main types of LCD:

  • TN (fast, but crap view angles, less than accurate color, and poor contrast ratios)
  • IPS (potentially fast, best view angles, generally good color, still poor contrast ratio)
  • VA (slowest, with some exceptions; middle of the road view angles and color, best contrast)

LCDs aren't electroemissive, they don't make light, they selectively block it. So, you need a backlight. VA can block the most light so have the highest native contrast ratio. Both TN and IPS panels will look grey rather than black in a dark room, unless brightness is very low (which also hurts contrast).

Local dimming is a way around this. It allows selective dimming of the backlight to increase effective contrast. Edge dimming is common, but has so few zones that it's mostly a gimmick. FALD (full array local dimming) can be much more effective, if the number of zones is high enough.

Electroemissive displays (currently microLED or OLED, mostly) don't have this issue and can have enormous native contrast ratios because when they are off they are off (black luminace is zero not whatever leaks through from a backlight).

I like VA panels for space games because space games usually have a lot of dark and VA does dark well.

TN glow/blacklight bleed is still more manageable than the IPS variant though. But I've noticed many people don't agree.

I personally can't stand IPS
 
TN glow/blacklight bleed is still more manageable than the IPS variant though. But I've noticed many people don't agree.

I personally can't stand IPS

It's a little better on average, in my experience...less shiny, but there is a lot of overlap and it's still way worse than most VAs.
 
Gotta take a couple issues with this.



Where there is smoke there is fire is actually falacious reasoning. There are issues, I don't think thats in dispute anywhere. So I find folks acting like people are not agreeing or seeing issues pretty disengenious.

The issues don't make the game unplayable. There have been some, more than usual, outages. Part of that is record user counts part is the communication errors Brayben talked about, some might be optimization but I'll remain Hella skeptical of research on a product from the outside.




I agree but the tall nail also gets the hammer.



However the irony here is past 11. The naked hypocrisy I hope is unintentional. Supporting people who don't like a game complaining but not people who hold the other opinion?

The forums are 1% or less 9f any active player playerbase but its for everyone who wants to talk publicly with other enthusiasts not just for negative venting.

If you don't like it, act in a manner you expect will have an effect to change it.



I don't have to be paid to defend a product if I like it, anymore than I need to be paid to criticize it if I don't.

If I see a thing I enjoy being unfairly criticized I'll speak up because it's a public perception I care to throw my voice against.

Again you seem to have a strong double standard, critics should voice criticism but those who are happy should remain silent?

I'm generally a product advocate for things I like because that activity pumps sales, and that extends the life of the products I want to see continue living.

If I'm critical in also trying to make changes to extend the life of a thing I enjoy, or I'm dropping one bomb and I'm gone for a product I want to warn others about.

One ongoing theme I'm seeing is people who are critical of the game don't want to be criticized themselves. Thats a double standard no one should be comfortable with.
At what point did I tell OP to be silent?

At what point is there a double standard?

I'll give you that my post obviously indicates my own displeasure with EDO, but at no point did I tell OP not to share their opinion. What I did say was that their question (the topic subject) has an answer: no, you're not out of line with the forum, yes, forums typically feature majority negative commentary. That's normal. If OP expects rainbows and sunshine (I can't imagine they do), that'd be silly.

Instead, the impression I got is that OP is surprised at how much negativity is here. I proceeded to explain why.

I then added that, if your objective is to be positive and provide praise, you can certainly do that on the forums...just don't expect much in the way of feel-good feedback. It happens, but rarely, which is why white knights seem like they circle-jerk...because there are so few of them to begin with. Likewise, trolls look the same way because...gasp...there's not that many of them, too. Most of the forum-ites are just folks debating 'till the cows come home something they can't objectively affect. Which is fine. That's what forums are for.

We're doing that exact thing right now. I have no doubt that my opinion has zero impacti on yours (or anyone else's) decision to publicly support, decry, buy, refund, whatever...that's not how this works. How it does work is sharing and, well, some listen and most don't. And you need to be ok with that. OP's self-opinion is a little low, cheer up, if you love EDO...GREAT. A lot of folks don't (at the moment). THAT'S OK, TOO.

All I did was explain how to make the most of your opinion if you're seeking for it to have some sort of tangible impact on FDev, good, bad, or otherwise.
 
Yep. People like me pre-ordered the game. That's because I really liked their previous product and had enough trust in FD to pre-order. I have never pre-ordered a game before. Ever. And next time I won't. FD probably knows full well that next release pre-orders will be less than otherwise could have been. The fan-base will be less trusting, more cautious.
I generally shy from pre-orders, but I'd be lying if I said I never do it. If I like a studio - or are crazy excited for what they're showing - I'll dive in. Refunds aren't hard if it's a crap-shoot, and I like sending positive vibes that, "Hey, what you're building - even if it isn't finished - is REALLY interesting to me. Take my money. DO MORE OF IT."

That's how consumerism works. It's a beautifully simple - and personal - system when viewed that way. The moment folks start fretting about how other consumers feel...you know what you get?

Politics.

Name one product politics created that people like.

Let the market do it's thing with EDO, sit back and relax, you'll get your game one way or another.

If you DON'T like it, do what any normal consumer would do: get a refund, leave a bad review explaining why.

If you DO like it...
deep breath

Do what any normal consumer would do: buy the product, leave a good review explaining why.

It really is that simple.
THE ONLY CAVEAT - and why this relates to OP - is to remember that the forums are not the best place to do these two actions. The forums are for debate, raging, shenanigans, community building...all sorts of great stuff. Product reviews can be done here, too. The emphasis isn't that you can't do that here.

The emphasis is that the forums are not the BEST place to do these two actions. So if you find your opinion 'off point to the majority'...don't sweat it. Forums never have a majority opinion except that YOURS IS WRONG. That's why they're more fun than the game they represent (usually). You can't win, and everybody loves a challenge!
 
And you should get more knowledgeable then. The max FPS a human eyes can see vary, but is between 60 to 120. But, and it's a big but (no pun), frequency play a major role to.

And no, I can't tell the difference between 120 and 250fps. In fact, I can't tell it over 60. Most of my games are capped at 60 for that reason, because otherwise it's a waste of work for my computer.

Try a 240hz monitor out on a game that is able to maintain 240fps. I find my 144hz display to feel slow since I got to try 240hz out.

Dipping below 120 feels awful now.

If you are at a 60hz display, going above 60hz isn't gonna let you notice it.
 
I generally shy from pre-orders, but I'd be lying if I said I never do it. If I like a studio - or are crazy excited for what they're showing - I'll dive in. Refunds aren't hard if it's a crap-shoot, and I like sending positive vibes that, "Hey, what you're building - even if it isn't finished - is REALLY interesting to me. Take my money. DO MORE OF IT."

That's how consumerism works. It's a beautifully simple - and personal - system when viewed that way. The moment folks start fretting about how other consumers feel...you know what you get?

Politics.

Name one product politics created that people like.

Let the market do it's thing with EDO, sit back and relax, you'll get your game one way or another.

If you DON'T like it, do what any normal consumer would do: get a refund, leave a bad review explaining why.

If you DO like it...
deep breath

Do what any normal consumer would do: buy the product, leave a good review explaining why.

It really is that simple.
THE ONLY CAVEAT - and why this relates to OP - is to remember that the forums are not the best place to do these two actions. The forums are for debate, raging, shenanigans, community building...all sorts of great stuff. Product reviews can be done here, too. The emphasis isn't that you can't do that here.

The emphasis is that the forums are not the BEST place to do these two actions. So if you find your opinion 'off point to the majority'...don't sweat it. Forums never have a majority opinion except that YOURS IS WRONG. That's why they're more fun than the game they represent (usually). You can't win, and everybody loves a challenge!

Preorders make no sense at all from a consumerism perspective though.
 
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