Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[VR Golgot]

That aside, discussing Star Citizen, Ci¬G and all the related foibles are good in my book, but when the topic of discussion turns around to how much any private individual has spent on the project...far less for golf, motorbikes, RC aircraft, speed knitting... or anything else for that matter...that's where the discussion and topic is wandering into deeply personal territory and starts turning into something that begins to feel uncomfortable. It serves no real purpose and doesn't move this thread any further along barring making it appear outwardly like a witch hunt.

I should make it clear...I have no issues discussing my personal spending on hobbies, or the habit of poking fun at SC whales in a general sense... but that's me...it's the direction the topic is headed I'm uncomfortable with

Yeah I get the fear of witchunts and dog-piling. I would note two things though:

• Big spending on a finished product vs big spending on an unfinished one: That debate is pretty generic, and I don't think many nasty barbs are thrown there. (CIG's twist on early access and crowdfunding seems worth singling out as pretty novel to me. The presented image of a polished product, the years of missed delivery milestones, the gamification of incremental purchases etc. It's just... not like buying a motorbike, in some really key ways. And I think those have been demonstrated quite a few times in the thread now.)
• Sunk Cost Silliness: SC has become infamous for a certain type of heavily invested backer. The type who will portray the project in the best possible light, often to the point of memory-holing any negatives of it, overselling it to noobs, and getting feisty with anyone who gets in the way of that. When new guys rock up to the thread in fighty mode, with their feet near that path, it seems legit to point out if they're pretty invested, and so may not be the most objective on that front ¯\(ツ)/¯. (On the good days it turns into a conversation, on the worse ones they double down. But if they insist on just hard-selling the project, I think their own 'investment' level is pretty relevant )

I hope you know I'm not slamming yourself when I go chasing down either of those rabbit holes . Or any other concierge guy who doesn't go for the absurd hard-sell of the project etc. And I do try not to phrase things in a way which is kindling for mindless clubbing of big-spending fans etc.

I just think those two strands are still pretty key, and fascinating, aspects of the SC experiment. And I don't really see how an open discussion of SC can be had without referencing them periodically.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

What happens if in the next few years, the game engine they are using would become too old? Would they try to release and start over with a new Engine Star Citizen 2? Or keep on supporting SC?

I am wondering what happens if the funding stops? Will they still employ 700 people, or just quickly cut the expenses?

I don't think there is a point in the next few years where the engine will become too old. And CIG can keep upgrading it, same as with any game engine. The main risk comes from newer assets being significantly nicer than old ones, requiring older ones to be reworked, and we know this has happened on several occasions.

As for funding stopping. Don't worry, CR said many years ago if funding stopped they would just magically release SQ42 and use the funds from the sale of that to finish SC! But CR being an idiot aside, i don't think it will just stop. It might slowly peter out and CIG might be forced into finally focusing on making a releasable product. Whether that MVP release is actually any decent upon release or whether it gets savaged by critics would remain to be seen. And looking at CIG's behaviour, i suspect this might be actually what happens. CIG continue to fart around with fidelity for years to come and backers, even newer ones, start getting tired of eternal alpha, and funding slows. Maybe somewhere in the middle of this is a SQ42 release, but unless its very very good, its not going to bring in that much money, especially when many backers already have purchased it. And i'm not sure CIG have the cojones to even make an actual proper release then. I think they will slap an "early access" label on it, just so the faithful can keep defending it and excusing any problems with the game.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well people do put sometimes pretty substantial sums of money into their hobbies. Some years ago I did practice pistol shooting much more than nowadays. 150 rounds per week, it was not particularly cheap over the time...and basically all that money was burned away...

Yes, and that's the point others have made. And my stance is, there is a world of difference between spending thousands on a hobby, where there is an actual end result or a released product, and spending thousands on a dream of a computer game, or even a released one. Sure, some people end up spending thousands over many years on released computer games (eg: WoW, EvE, etc), through subscriptions, cosmetics, but even then there is a point where i'll do a Nelson and say "har har" in their general direction.

Like there are people who have spent tens of thousands on games like WoT, and i'll laugh at them as well.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Yes, and that's the point others have made. And my stance is, there is a world of difference between spending thousands on a hobby, where there is an actual end result or a released product, and spending thousands on a dream of a computer game, or even a released one. Sure, some people end up spending thousands over many years on released computer games (eg: WoW, EvE, etc), through subscriptions, cosmetics, but even then there is a point where i'll do a Nelson and say "har har" in their general direction.

Like there are people who have spent tens of thousands on games like WoT, and i'll laugh at them as well.

Well I have to say that only result I got was holes in paper and a skill that I do hope I would never need to use in real situation

 

[StanleyDunkan]

I don't think there is a point in the next few years where the engine will become too old. And CIG can keep upgrading it, same as with any game engine. The main risk comes from newer assets being significantly nicer than old ones, requiring older ones to be reworked, and we know this has happened on several occasions.

As for funding stopping. Don't worry, CR said many years ago if funding stopped they would just magically release SQ42 and use the funds from the sale of that to finish SC! But CR being an idiot aside, i don't think it will just stop. It might slowly peter out and CIG might be forced into finally focusing on making a releasable product. Whether that MVP release is actually any decent upon release or whether it gets savaged by critics would remain to be seen. And looking at CIG's behaviour, i suspect this might be actually what happens. CIG continue to fart around with fidelity for years to come and backers, even newer ones, start getting tired of eternal alpha, and funding slows. Maybe somewhere in the middle of this is a SQ42 release, but unless its very very good, its not going to bring in that much money, especially when many backers already have purchased it. And i'm not sure CIG have the cojones to even make an actual proper release then. I think they will slap an "early access" label on it, just so the faithful can keep defending it and excusing any problems with the game.

It's still puzzeles me where the money are coming from? I mean Space genre was never that popular in the game industry. But it's not like this is a one time income during release, like C2077. This is constant funding each month ... are we absolutly 100% sure there is no scheme going on here, like some form of money laundering and the whole game is just a cover up?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

It's still puzzeles me where the money are coming from? I mean Space genre was never that popular in the game industry. But it's not like this is a one time income during release, like C2077. This is constant funding each month ... are we absolutly 100% sure there is no scheme going on here, like some form of money laundering?

Hmm to launder money there needs to be some kind of plausible and sure way to get money out from scheme too. Say if I had some "hot" money pledging it to SC would be kind of risky thing to do...

 

[Mole HD]

Yeah I get the fear of witchunts and dog-piling. I would note two things though:

• Big spending on a finished product vs big spending on an unfinished one: That debate is pretty generic, and I don't think many nasty barbs are thrown there. (CIG's twist on early access and crowdfunding seems worth singling out as pretty novel to me. The presented image of a polished product, the years of missed delivery milestones, the gamification of incremental purchases etc. It's just... not like buying a motorbike, in some really key ways. And I think those have been demonstrated quite a few times in the thread now.)
• Sunk Cost Silliness: SC has become infamous for a certain type of heavily invested backer. The type who will portray the project in the best possible light, often to the point of memory-holing any negatives of it, overselling it to noobs, and getting feisty with anyone who gets in the way of that. When new guys rock up to the thread in fighty mode, with their feet near that path, it seems legit to point out if they're pretty invested, and so may not be the most objective on that front ¯\(ツ)/¯. (On the good days it turns into a conversation, on the worse ones they double down. But if they insist on just hard-selling the project, I think their own 'investment' level is pretty relevant )

I hope you know I'm not slamming yourself when I go chasing down either of those rabbit holes . Or any other concierge guy who doesn't go for the absurd hard-sell of the project etc. And I do try not to phrase things in a way which is kindling for mindless clubbing of big-spending fans etc.

I just think those two strands are still pretty key, and fascinating, aspects of the SC experiment. And I don't really see how an open discussion of SC can be had without referencing them periodically.

Aye, I know you're not pointing the proverbial at me or any particular individual...but I've been here long enough and don't take myself that seriously that it would offend anyway. It's the general nature of discussing private spending, disposable incomes and whatever any individual might chose to spend that on I'm getting at...it's a big totally irrelevant rabbit hole where it's not up to you, me or anyone else to decide arbitrarily whether it's a fools errand or not... it is a big hole....and probably full of wasps

 

[StanleyDunkan]

Hmm to launder money there needs to be some kind of plausible and sure way to get money out from scheme too. Say if I had some "hot" money pledging it to SC would be kind of risky thing to do...

Someone gave them over 300 millions USD. Can 10 million vanishe unnoticed? Are there public accounts for each dollar spend?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Someone gave them over 300 millions USD. Can 10 million vanishe unnoticed? Are there public accounts for each dollar spend?

For launder scheme money taken out needs to look like legit money...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

It's still puzzeles me where the money are coming from? I mean Space genre was never that popular in the game industry. But it's not like this is a one time income during release, like C2077. This is constant funding each month ... are we absolutly 100% sure there is no scheme going on here, like some form of money laundering and the whole game is just a cover up?

While many of us are pretty certain there are some sort of less than honest reporting going on (eg: maybe investor funds are trickled into the funding tracker) and we are fairly sure they don't remove refunds from the funding tracker, in general, it has to be broadly accurate.

Why?

Because if it wasn't, CIG should be out of funds already.

They almost ran out of funds in 2019 (or was it 2018?) and CR had to go cap in hand to Calder. If the funding wasn't broadly accurate, then even that wouldn't have been enough.

And looking at this year, with the number of ship sales they have had, its rather suspect and quite possible they are burning more money than they are bringing in... and maybe this also ties in with CR's plans to move to the UK next year. The clock might be ticking and Calder might have given CR orders to get it sorted.

As to why people keep giving CIG more and more money. Maybe there are simply lots of people who like what they see, a lot more than the niche genre might suggest. However, never discount the possibility of it simply being a case of "a fool and his money are soon parted"

 

[Mole HD]

Yes, and that's the point others have made. And my stance is, there is a world of difference between spending thousands on a hobby, where there is an actual end result or a released product, and spending thousands on a dream of a computer game, or even a released one. Sure, some people end up spending thousands over many years on released computer games (eg: WoW, EvE, etc), through subscriptions, cosmetics, but even then there is a point where i'll do a Nelson and say "har har" in their general direction.

Like there are people who have spent tens of thousands on games like WoT, and i'll laugh at them as well.

No...there's no difference at all. The only issue here is whether you, me and others, personally agree with it or not

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No...there's no difference at all. The only issue here is whether you, me and others, personally agree with it or not

Then let it be my opinion

And right on time, here's one i'll happily point a finger at and laugh at....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1416179918367514636

 

[Agony_Aunt]

 

[VR Golgot]

Can 10 million vanishe unnoticed? Are there public accounts for each dollar spend?

The short answers is: No. Welcome to crowd funding

The more complicated answer is: The UK side of their business has to declare some financial information on Companies House, under the aegis of Cloud Imperium UK LTD, and reveals some info about the German arm, and occasionally the US, in the process. (Given the ~15 companies they seem to operate, that's just a peek at the overall picture though, and one that isn't rigorously policed). CIG has released a financial blog periodically in the last few years, but that has to be taken on trust essentially.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Well people do put sometimes pretty substantial sums of money into their hobbies. Some years ago I did practice pistol shooting much more than nowadays. 150 rounds per week, it was not particularly cheap over the time...and basically all that money was burned away...

Fishing: A hobby where people invest hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to catch something that you can buy for less than $5/lb at the supermarket...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Fishing: A hobby where people invest hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to catch something that you can buy for less than $5/lb at the supermarket...

Always assumed fishing had nothing to do with actually catching fish but more of a way of getting away from 'er indoors for a few hours.

 

[Mole HD]

I don't think how much someone has spent totally invalidates their opinion, but it is worth considering the sunk cost fallacy effect. For example, LA might call me biased, but at least that bias is not born out of money i have given to CIG. I'm not someone who feels beholden to CIG or feels ripped off by them.

And when it comes to people have spent thousands upon thousands on a computer game, especially an unreleased one, and not just Star Citizen, i'll stand by anyone poking fun at them.

I've spent thousands on the project...but I don't for one second feel beholden to the idiot Roberts or Ci¬G, neither do I feel ripped off...you're equating spending with emotional investment, the two aren't necessarily connected.

Talking amongst backers of levels...we had the conversation last night on Discord...most don't connect their spending and supporting what they personally see in or take from the project with any feelings toward Ci¬G or Chris Roberts... at all. We're all critical of both but are all generally happy with the amounts we've put in over the years. What Ci¬G are doing with it is another matter.

We can all read the emotionally invested nonsense from Spectrum or reddit posts, most of us as backers, concierge, whales or filthy $50 peasantry, aren't these people

 

[Mole HD]

Fishing: A hobby where people invest hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to catch something that you can buy for less than $5/lb at the supermarket...

Don't watch the cat video from Kiffness...I've had the tune rattling around my head for 3 weeks already

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I've spent thousands on the project...but I don't for one second feel beholden to the idiot Roberts or Ci¬G, neither do I feel ripped off...you're equating spending with emotional investment, the two aren't necessarily connected.

Talking amongst backers of levels...we had the conversation last night on Discord...most don't connect their spending and supporting what they personally see in or take from the project with any feelings toward Ci¬G or Chris Roberts... at all. We're all critical of both but are all generally happy with the amounts we've put in over the years. What Ci¬G are doing with it is another matter.

We can all read the emotionally invested nonsense from Spectrum or reddit posts, most of us as backers, concierge, whales or filthy $50 peasantry, aren't these people

Yeah, beholden was the wrong word. I should have said invested in it suceeding, and yes, i understand it doesn't apply to everyone.

And there are people who are in for just a base package that are more invested in the game that are in for thousands.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Any day now...