Cycle 340 - Hudson Strikes Back

[MantisOlthoi]

A lot of this arguing comes down to the fact that aside from the squadron leaderboard, there's no way to identify where merits come from. And the squadron leaderboard only counts merits if your pledged to the same power as your squadron (if you're even in a squadron), and not all squadrons can even pledge to the power they actually serve because of PMF rules. Perhaps a more per CMDR leaderboard would work out better for powerplay in addition to the existing leaderboards. Then all would see where merits were coming from. It would at least kill part of this idle speculation we're forced to do. I'd also suggest these per CMDR leaderboards exist per power as well for clarity.

Also, at least this way more CMDRs can actually contribute to powerplay leaderboards as many many many CMDRs are unable to currently. I can think of several Aisling squadrons that don't appear, and I'd imagine Hudson suffers the same problem as we can't have favorable PMFs that are also aligned with our superpower.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Yes I do know how much it sucks to be a combat power? You need a lot of dedicated people to build up merits, many more than the enemy. We don’t get that anymore in this dying, broken game.

I don’t get what you’re saying here though, we should leave a massive exploit in the game because it’s hard to be a combat power?

Aisling is complaining that every week your preps are like the Home Shopping Network. Say what you want, Santa Claus delivers, then you can cry on the forums that you have no idea who the cheater is. They aren’t entirely wrong mate, it kind of sounds like: “Please don’t cheat and take these systems for us next!”

If FDEV cared enough, they would end the CZ after 10 kills like a low CZ, and increase the merits earned to 30 at least, 50 ideally. A wing of four engineered players should be able to make 1200 merits in a couple of minutes with focus fire.

I'm Winters so I don't expand by combat, but what are you saying here is Hudson should stop prepping systems and just consolidate cycle after cycle because people outside FUC do merits for their Power? I'm not sure if that's what you're suggesting.

Also, it's kinda funny that when Grom drops absolutely absurd amounts of merits on their expansions you guys are quiet like a mouse.

 

[breach_candy]

Apart from a handful of the usual PvP players (always the same ones), Feds are not often seen in Open, quite frankly, "we play in Open only" is just another Fed propaganda.

But let's not side tracked onto another OOPP debate. This is about botting, clearly a breach of FDev ToS, but nothing seems to be done about it.

Generally those "usual PvP players" tend to contribute the most to their powers, constantly hauling forts or doing BGS or undermining. Keep raving buddy, maybe you'll become part of the void you scream into.

 

[Mo Mo]

You say this as a hauling power, have you EVER tried to expand using the nav beacon method ? 1 dude alone does 1.5-2k merits an hour average, in a wing of 4 you can go up to 2.5-3k an hour per cmdr. Which is ok rate at the beacon but defenetly not the 794t / per trip a hauling power can do. Specially if it's 1 jump to load and 1 jump to drop ..... You can do 6-7 trips in 1 hour VERY easily. That's like 5k an hour FOR 1 solo cmdr.

Removing those CZ is maybe not the solution. Modifing them yes, like BGS CZ. We still have lots of fun doing those, but you need a full wing, of efficient ship build optimized for those kind of CZ (endless). I think giving a buff to the merits won in those CZ but making them like bgs CZ would help the "afk" issue.

If you really want to remove those CZ then sure, but UMers only gain 10 merits at the time (if not less).
Otherwise it's totally impossible...

Also please teach your PvPers that shooting npcs in Hudson expansion doesn't always means undermining it also means expanding ..... but well, enough advice .... I'm not here to teach you powerplay.

Yes, I have been told that using the current mechanic, for a combat Power, expanding using the beacon method is not viable, that's why another comment that states "How peculair. 30 merits / kill everywhere else in system" is not entirely believable.

In any case, I wasn't suggesting that FDev removes the CZs and use beacon as they are now, but for FDev to remove the CZs AND to set the beacons so that NPCs from both sides spawn at the same rate.

 

[Tarkus Venius]

Generally those "usual PvP players" tend to contribute the most to their powers, constantly hauling forts or doing BGS or undermining. Keep raving buddy, maybe you'll become part of the void you scream into.

Or become part of the void you shout racial expletives into maybe?

I’d post proof, but I’m sure it’ll be moderated.

 

[breach_candy]

Or become part of the void you shout racial expletives into maybe?

I’d post proof, but I’m sure it’ll be moderated.

Good to know you're already a part of that void

 

[Tarkus Venius]

I'm Winters so I don't expand by combat, but what are you saying here is Hudson should stop prepping systems and just consolidate cycle after cycle because people outside FUC do merits for their Power? I'm not sure if that's what you're suggesting.

Also, it's kinda funny that when Grom drops absolutely absurd amounts of merits on their expansions you guys are quiet like a mouse.

Honestly? I don’t have an answer mate. I wouldn’t know because my power can’t prep four systems like you do without 5C saboteurs picking three of them. I know FLC isn’t doing it, but it sucks sometimes not being a Fed.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Honestly? I don’t have an answer mate. I wouldn’t know because my power can’t prep four systems like you do without 5C saboteurs picking three of them. I know FLC isn’t doing it, but it sucks sometimes not being a Fed.

Prepping 4 systems takes some work, controlling our available CC and haul quite a bit. I guess you guys could do it too if you wanted. Every Power has problems with 5C though, precisely this cycle we didn't choose one of our expansions and they're trying to feed us a bad system.

Anyway, I see you and MoMo don't have anything to comment about the big merit drops on Grom expansions. No sarcastic congratulations, no "Santa Claus" jokes, no cheating or collusion accusations.... good!

 

[Tarkus Venius]

Prepping 4 systems takes some work, controlling our available CC and haul quite a bit. I guess you guys could do it too if you wanted. Every Power has problems with 5C though, precisely this cycle we didn't choose one of our expansions and they're trying to feed us a bad system.

Anyway, I see you and MoMo don't have anything to comment about the big merit drops on Grom expansions. No sarcastic congratulations, no "Santa Claus" jokes, no cheating or collusion accusations.... good!

Imagine having 70-100K into one or more sabotage preps every week for a couple of years. That’s just what the Empire has to deal with. That’s why we’re so upset about it, that forces us to consolidate or raise our vote when we don’t want to. You guys chose not to, because weapons on us are more important.

Honestly I haven’t even noticed big merits out of Grom, certainly not the near million merit or million+ numbers we’ve seen in the past out of the mysterious source. DM me and I’ll take a look.

PS: You’ll note that Aisling managed a prep and had to fight 200K in sabotage preps.

 

[Intersection]

Ok, enough word games.

Here is a screenshot of a conversation one of our players had with a high level Hudson player regarding the seemingly impossible amount of merit drop Hudson was able to do week after week.

Basically, it shows:

1. Automated turret-boats were used to help Hudson with his expansions.
2. Hudson leadership denies direct control or responsibility for the t-boats - may or may not be true.
3. Hudson has most definitely benefited from these t-boats, whether he controls them or not.
4. Hudson is able to go for highly challenging targets, those with triggers that are seriously against him, with high chance of winning, as he can rely on his mystery benefactor(s) to dump hundreds of thousands of merits for him towards the end of the cycle.

The use of afk t-boats seemed to have stopped for a few months for whatever reasons, but cycle 340 shows that they are back in use.

So in summary, there is absolutely no doubt that Hudson is colluding with botters in order to win.

You know, even that little screenshot you're trying to use contradicts most of what you've been saying... Makes it a little hard to take your accusations seriously.

But sure, enough word games. Every power sees unreported activity, for good or for bad - this isn't new to powerplay, not every pledgee coordinates with us on Discord, and imperial powers know this very well and experience it constantly. It's also easy to discount good planning and our share of coordinated contributions when turret botting is such an easy, unverifiable charge to throw around.

Had you shuffled your opposition merits a little more intelligently, none of our expansions would've passed. You'd look a lot more gracious if you could just accept you've made a strategic mistake, rather than heading straight to the forums to complain and lob pointless accusations.

Aisling is complaining that every week your preps are like the Home Shopping Network. Say what you want, Santa Claus delivers, then you can cry on the forums that you have no idea who the cheater is. They aren’t entirely wrong mate, it kind of sounds like: “Please don’t cheat and take these systems for us next!”

If you think Hudson expansions can be boiled down to "say what you want, Santa Claus delivers", I'm not sure what to tell you...

 

[Mo Mo]

Anyway, I see you and MoMo don't have anything to comment about the big merit drops on Grom expansions. No sarcastic congratulations, no "Santa Claus" jokes, no cheating or collusion accusations.... good!

We (AD) never had to fight Grom (that I know of)...well, we'll see what happen after this cycle with BD+03...so we have never paid a great deal of attention to the number of merits they dropped.

But if they are doing the same thing as Hudson, then they won't get any sympathy from me. Although one must be aware that Grom is under new leadership - the old EG Pilots no longer participate in PP and if they did anything against ToS then that's on them.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Imagine having 70-100K into one or more sabotage preps every week for a couple of years. That’s just what the Empire has to deal with. That’s why we’re so upset about it, that forces us to consolidate or raise our vote when we don’t want to. You guys chose not to, because weapons on us are more important.

Honestly I haven’t even noticed big merits out of Grom, certainly not the near million merit or million+ numbers we’ve seen in the past out of the mysterious source. DM me and I’ll take a look.

PS: You’ll note that Aisling managed a prep and had to fight 200K in sabotage preps.

We have been attacked by organized 5C in the past and I know how it is. We used to get very late preps to bad systems and vote snipes only a few hours before tick, so it was more elaborate than just getting a big amount of 5C preps through the week. This happened while the Empire started to use Torval to weaponize into our space, so seeing someone from Aisling posting here and using the word 'collusion' makes me smile. Sorry not sorry.

 

[Mo Mo]

turret botting is such an easy, unverifiable charge to throw around.

That's the core of the problem - FDev could have done something, do a full audit of those handing in large amount of merits for example, I know for a fact that people have asked Fdev to investigate this kind of problem in the past but was ignored.

Perhaps our current group of CMs, like @sallymorganmoore who is much more active, reading this thread, seeing how broken PP is and all the anguish it has created, might finally be able to compel FDev do something.

 

[LDFR_Prozer]

We (AD) never had to fight Grom (that I know of)...well, we'll see what happen after this cycle with BD+03...so we have never paid a great deal of attention to the number of merits they dropped.

But if they are doing the same thing as Hudson, then they won't get any sympathy from me. Although one must be aware that Grom is under new leadership - the old EG Pilots no longer participate in PP and if they did anything against ToS then that's on them.

Well cycle 335 he won 4 exp (for a combat power it's pretty much impossible) by merits sniping over 80k-100k merits on EACH systems, they redeemed so late that no one had time to refresh the galmap to get status. It was none of the Yuri's squadron (the new leadership or whatever other squad they have) on any platform.

So yeah, we're seeing lots of big merits drop these past few weeks. I'm sure Grom has no control of it, but they never complained about getting any systems.

We aren't complaining about it too because we know that there is always rando people pushing expansions. Galpow show positive CC expansion for some systems so they usually go for those one. Last week, saw merits dropped on every hudson exp even the one we didn't wanted (but again, not complaining). Until the reddit post we had 0 useful merits in our exp (we only wanted 2 out of 4) so in my opinion it wasn't bots. Probably a fed RP group following reddit or just playing the game and doing a tons of CZ kill.

We also saw a LOT of random fort last week, many systems were forted / finished by rando that didn't reported their merits on FUC. But same, it happened after the reddit post.

I'm trying to find the group doing those merits, but for now no success in any Hudson exp this week or around the area from last week expansion.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

We (AD) never had to fight Grom (that I know of)...well, we'll see what happen after this cycle with BD+03...so we have never paid a great deal of attention to the number of merits they dropped.

But if they are doing the same thing as Hudson, then they won't get any sympathy from me. Although one must be aware that Grom is under new leadership - the old EG Pilots no longer participate in PP and if they did anything against ToS then that's on them.

Yeah, I know Grom is under new leadership and these days it's a much smaller group than EGP was. Also yes, if you're apparently able to tell if Hudson is turret-boating or not but you haven't seen anything weird in the expansions Grom have won lately it must be because you haven't been paying attention.

Now that we've told you I hope you decide to pay attention from now on. I look forward to your "Grom Strikes Back" post in this forum.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Now that we've told you I hope you decide to pay attention from now on. I look forward to your "Grom Strikes Back" post in this forum.

 

[Mo Mo]

Yeah, I know Grom is under new leadership and these days it's a much smaller group than EGP was. Also yes, if you're apparently able to tell if Hudson is turret-boating or not but you haven't seen anything weird in the expansions Grom have won lately it must be because you haven't been paying attention.

Now that we've told you I hope you decide to pay attention from now on. I look forward to your "Grom Strikes Back" post in this forum.

Per your suggestion, I have been keeping an eye on Grom this cycle - and it would seem that they are currently under some sort of bot attack - a single CMDR has been undermining their systems, non-stop, for 24 hours, probably more, at a constant rate of 4k/hour. One system, Tatamo, was overdone by 12k merits - no sane person would do this, suggesting a bot user who has overslept or something. And this person handed in his/her merits at Hudson CSs.

So, more evidence of botting, and Grom appears to be a victim rather than a perpetrator.

In the meantime, FDev seems unable or unwilling to deal with this kind of blatant cheating. Perhaps the media, such as PC Gamer, should do a follow-up article about how cheating is still rampant in Elite Dangerous.

 

[Intersection]

Per your suggestion, I have been keeping an eye on Grom this cycle - and it would seem that they are currently under some sort of bot attack - a single CMDR has been prepping, non-stop, for 48 hours, probably more, sometimes reaching a rate of 20k/hour. That system, Murung, now sits at nearly 350k merits - no sane person would do this, suggesting a bot user who has overslept or something.

So, more evidence of botting, and Grom appears to be a perpetrator rather than a victim.

In the meantime, FDev seems unable or unwilling to deal with this kind of blatant cheating. Perhaps the media, such as PC Gamer, should do a follow-up article about how cheating is still rampant in Elite Dangerous.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Per your suggestion, I have been keeping an eye on Grom this cycle - and it would seem that they are currently under some sort of bot attack - a single CMDR has been undermining their systems, non-stop, for 24 hours, probably more, at a constant rate of 4k/hour. One system, Tatamo, was overdone by 12k merits - no sane person would do this, suggesting a bot user who has overslept or something. And this person handed in his/her merits at Hudson CSs.

So you're saying someone is using bots to do normal undermining of control systems, as in doing the nav beacon method in an automated way.

You're not talking about AFK-turretboats parked in a Powerplay CZ, but bots jumping in and out the nav beacon, choosing targets, killing them and resetting instance when necessary.

Are you for real?

So, more evidence of botting, and Grom appears to be a victim rather than a perpetrator.

A little bit of UM in Grom systems: B O T S
350k preps dumped by Grom in Murung: crickets

 

[Mo Mo]

So you're saying someone is using bots to do normal undermining of control systems, as in doing the nav beacon method in an automated way.

You're not talking about AFK-turretboats parked in a Powerplay CZ, but bots jumping in and out the nav beacon, choosing targets, killing them and resetting instance when necessary.

Are you for real?



A little bit of UM in Grom systems: B O T S
350k preps dumped by Grom in Murung: crickets

I would imagine a bot in solo can just re-log to get a new instance, there is no need to jump around the beacon.

Wrt targets, it can probably just shoot everything in the instance - the fact that the bot is incurring large amount of non-Power bounties certainly seem to back up that possibility; either that, or there is some sophisticate hack being used.

How else can you explain an account that's active for over 24 hours continuously, consistently producing 4k/hour merits? And why would someone overdo a system by 12k? That's 3 hours of work that can be used to undermine another system.

And Murung - that's not a mystery, we have some module shoppers helping them with the prep.