Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[VR Golgot]

A gentle reminder that:

CIG’s habit of constantly missing internal deadlines is not considered normal within the industry.

The factors which drive such issues are also well known within the industry.

Some dev quotes on CIG’s missed deadlines & related controversies:

Aug 2015 - Dan Rosenthal [Bethesda]

And suddenly I don't feel like the worst producer in the world anymore.

March 2016 - Rob Irving [Origin / CIG etc]

Rob Irving: He always is going to probably go bigger than he should. But, you know, this comes from me with my producer hat on. It's like: "At some point you got to stop man". That's my producer hat...
Matt Barton: So really what he needs is, he needs somebody to tell him: "Cut this, cut this, cut this..."...
Rob Irving: That's what he doesn't want though. And that's what, you know, that's the thing that he built for himself with that, with this campaign is, you know, I get to do whatever I want. And that's, sometimes that's not a good thing, you know?

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PLwo3YCY_8&t=378s


March 2016 - George Broussard [Duke Nukem Forever etc]

Listened to the SC part. Anyone who works in games can tell that 1) Rob knows what he's talking about 2) he's being nice and 3) the game is out of control and will never ship to high standards it would be easy for common gamers to dismiss his comments or spin them, because they have no idea what they are talking about.

July 2016 - Richard Lyle [Origin etc]

...I worked with Chris at Origin and I didn't even bother backing in the first place. He's more interested in making movies than games I'm afraid.

Aug 2016 - Mike Wikan [id Software etc]

It's Clown Car leadership over there. If I was Chris I would just be too embarrassed to even talk to fans at this point.

Sept 2016 - Jason Bentley [Destiny 2 etc]

Oh yeah; he's the text book definition of the "wouldn't it be cool if..." Project manager.

Things are one-offs with no re-useability, programming today was yesterday's new idea and reasonable trade-offs are rejected because 'I have high standards'.
It's this kind of management that actually prevents projects from shipping on time and really pushes away highly competent self-motivated employees

Jan 2017 - Martin 'Wiz' Anward [Stellaris / Paradox]

I am pretty smug, but honestly Star Citizen is just kind of really funny. It's the perfect amalgamation of so many things that are wrong about the games industry, and whenever it's brought up in any gathering of game devs it's good for a few laughs and stories about terrible bosses

December 2017 - Ryan Elam [Planetside 2 etc]

I think it has literally become impossible to make this into a game. Making an MMO is hard enough with out the added restriction of needing to make SURE that HOWEVER your gameplay works, it keeps the value of a bunch of crap that it shipped with. You either completely bone the people you've been boning for the last several years in favor of new players, or you resign yourself to having no new players and just continuously trying to milk the existing ones... which don't really mind you not having a game in the first place apparently. So, this is just an infinite cycle of bullcrap till some class action suit ends it.

May 2018 - James Berg [Mirror's Edge etc]

I backed this way back when, but it’s years past when I expected to see anything meaningful come from this. I’d love to be wrong – I want to believe in the game, but the persistent level of scope explosion (forget scope ‘creep’) makes that unlikely.

---

(Here's a convenient list of public dev criticisms for those who want it though).

Although to infer what’s going on inside the 'most transparent game company ever', we have to turn to leaks such as the Jennison letter, and less verifiable dev gossip:

Consistent, but unverifiable, dev gossip on CIG’s poor internal practices:

Sept 2015

I have friends who work at CIG - not David Jennison and I won't name names to protect the innocent - and I have to say this story sounds familiar. Effort can be poured into something for months and then Chris will just one day go another way or change who he wants leading an initiative - sometimes without the people currently working on it even knowing for a while, or why the change in direction.

Nov 2015

CIG is stuck in a Sisyphean hell of incompetence. Case in point, I know of a guy who was working on the ship's damage states. He spent the better part of a year working and re-working the same problem because Chris kept changing the stuff up. He worked diligently on this single feature for nearly a year before quitting, as there was no end to the re-works in sight.

May 2016 - E3 2nd-hand gossip

Chris and I had a pretty good working relationship, I think. Great even, as long as you don't share anything negative. As long as you don't say no or make things too complicated. We started calling him Chris the Ripper because he absolutely eviscerated people that tried explaining things to him.

April 2016

I can tell you this. Any one who brought up performance issues got a stone cold stare. you never bring up performance with croberts if it means sacrificing fidelity. issues were raised, and beaten down into the sirt as fast as possible.

April 2018

He’s a poser perfectionist who has no idea how to describe what he actually wants, but he’s more then happy to tell someone that something they’ve been slaving over for days (from his last feedback session) is not what he is looking for. Thus, sending that person spiraling for another batch of days and nights trying to come up with something he will like. Any CIG people reading this and having some ptsd from the description?

DA was the only studio I’ve ever had the displeasure of sleeping under my desk numerous nights.

Oct 2018

A relative of mine worked for Cloud Imperium for a couple years. According to him the problems with the game's development start with the word 'Chris' and end with the word 'Roberts.' He called the man, "the Dunningest Krugerian I've ever met" whose micromanagement of things he doesn't understand and constantly shifting, often cluelessly impossible demands were acting as sand in the gears. He also said every time Chris got in front of a camera the devs would groan because he'd start waving his hands around and promising a dozen new features or mechanics, none of which had even been sketched on a napkin by anyone else.

He left last year though so now who knows.

May 2019

Had lunch with an ex-designer from the Squadron 42 studio today. But nothing groundbreaking to say other then to continue to confirm what is known

-Endlessly frustrated after a year of everything on that game changing over and over again, leading to all the work needing to be constantly scrapped or reworked. He left in total frustration

-Massive attrition constantly occurring every month

-Liked Erin but said he is a slave to his brothers insanity

-75% of the studios time is pulled to help make assets and movies with the other studios, to sell to whales

-Sandi is a very frightening woman and the studio is told in advance to just sit quietly and act really busy when she would visit. Do not even say hi to her or make eye contact. Its safer to be anonymous. Chris would be a bit more chatty but would talk down to people and handlers would usher him away if you talked for more then a few minutes.

-Did not believe the game was a pure scam at the start, just that it morphed into an unachievable product (because chris) and everyone knows that. Staff is mostly first timers who just need jobs but can’t get hired at better places.

-Chris has some odd shoelace fetish and stopped production, for a few weeks, with a large portion of the art team who needed to make them all scratch again on every boot

-Arena commander was made purely to help whales “believe” and get more funding

- Ex Designer had never heard of Derek Smart. Studio was encouraged to stay out of forums. Especially Reddit

-Did not have to sign any legally binding gag contracts when he left. Was free talk about it if he wanted but just didn’t care enough to talk in forums. Said it was just sad and depressing there and felt bad for the guys who had to remain because of no prospects elsewhere.

-Even with the switch to Lumberyard, the engine is not enough (and probably never will be) to make the MMO game that chris wants - but would be capable of making sq42 if chris ever reigned it into a scope that was possible

-Never provided any design direction to the sq42 team for mechanics or gameplay, And Is perceived as completely uneducated on game development

-Did make one joke at lunch and said “but in the end it will all be okay, because chris will code it”

There’s more but its all just blah blah blah stuff that the forum already knows. It just confirms it again

Jan 2020

I worked for M$ for ten years building OS's and Flight Simulator. I know what software and game development looks like and CGI has demonstrated the worst version of it I have ever seen. There are those who stand behind Chris Roberts and then there are those who know his history. He was fired from M$ because he spent funds on making movies instead of game development...

[/quote{

 

[StuartGT]

 

[n4p0l3on]

Yeah, this is why it's an Alpha.

this video was from 2018, but things are still the same now in 2022...

notice that even in 2014, CIG did make it sound like Squadron 42 was close to release for 2015, lol.

 

[VR Golgot]

Some very reasonable JackFrags takes…

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/_/hy33xp2

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/turbulent_upping_their_game_by_hiring_bf/hy33xp2/

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/_/hy36we2

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/turbulent_upping_their_game_by_hiring_bf/hy36we2/

Tbh, I think he's trying to diversify his channel away from shooters.
Given his socialblade stats his monthly viewcount on videos went down from over 30 million views in May 2020 to 13 million views in January 2022. That's a hefty loss in views and therefore in income in just two years.
Also noteworthy his monthly gained subscriber count went down from 90k subs in May 2020 to ZERO in January 2022.
Source: https://socialblade.com/youtube/channel/UCw7FkXsC00lH2v2yB5LQoYA
When you take a look at his Twitch subs and view numbers, he also suffered a massive decline there.
Source: https://socialblade.com/twitch/user/jackfrags

 

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Some very reasonable JackFrags takes…

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/_/hy33xp2

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/turbulent_upping_their_game_by_hiring_bf/hy33xp2/

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/_/hy36we2

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/szea3h/turbulent_upping_their_game_by_hiring_bf/hy36we2/

I don't think Battlefield is a good earner for him - then again to cover a 10 year old buggy alpha - that might need quite a lot of incentives. What's he gonna make - janky FPS shows?

Once you drop your standards from triple A to Star Citisnt tosh, you know it's a step toward internet celebrity retirement.

 

[Mole HD]

I don't think Battlefield is a good earner for him - then again to cover a 10 year old buggy alpha - that might need quite a lot of incentives. What's he gonna make - janky FPS shows?

Once you drop your standards from triple A to Star Citisnt tosh, you know it's a step toward internet celebrity retirement.

Jack got his rightful comeuppance after blatantly shilling for EA and repeatedly telling porkies about BF 2042...his viewers were less than impressed at his continued support for EA after the release of BF 2042 as well.

I suspect he's been 'approached'...rather than his frankly unbelievable assertion he just happened to try SC out with some 'mates'....The way his streaming and reviewing history has been with the titles he's covered thus far would suggest strongly that if he ain't being paid, he wouldn't be covering it

 

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Jack got his rightful comeuppance after blatantly shilling and repeatedly telling porkies about BF 2042...his viewers were less than impressed at his continued support for EA after the release of BF 2042 as well.

It's not just been like that for BF2042. He's been on the EA payroll since I know him (BF 1) and shifts his narration how the influencer program of EA swings.

 

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It's a deal with the devil. "Influencers" get coverage by in-game ads, but you better not expect them to be openly critic with their content.

I remember a YT who covered Bioware heavily. She was drawn into the influencer stuff for Anthem and she did her duty, but you could hear how she didnt really enjoy it but had to say something positive. She used a lot of conditional.
And then were all the deserted channels that thought it would be great idea to cover Anthem but never had anyone heard about them.
There is always a mix - the fan who gained a following (most precious, these suckers) and the (semi)professional PR contractors.

 

[Mole HD]

It's not just been like that for BF2042. He's been on the EA payroll since I know him (BF 1) and shifts his narration how the influencer program of EA swings.

Jack needs a fresh audience...and some income, Ci¬G needs some new positive looking coverage and will be willing to pay for it. A match made in heaven

 

[Dooguk]

Note the date and if Jack is gone in 12 months time you know it's Rexzilla all over again.

It must be time for Pixel Lemonade to rise from the ashes.

 

[VR Golgot]

I don't think Battlefield is a good earner for him - then again to cover a 10 year old buggy alpha - that might need quite a lot of incentives. What's he gonna make - janky FPS shows?

Machinima

 

[GuruNot]

Star Citizen improving character eyeball wetness

The latest developer update video from crowd-funded sci-fi epic Star Citizen has focused in on improving character eyeb…

www.eurogamer.net

Eye wetness!!!! Yes! The major update we've all been waiting for!

Dear Lord ... Whatever next ?!? Chris certainly goes out of his way to think up work that keeps his developers away from the difficult coding!!

Why is this even being looked at when there are so many other areas that need some dev time ??

 

[Ebob]

Cobra?

Does FDev license their engine out for other people to use it? Even if they did, judging by glassdoor reviews touting it as "incredibly difficult to use", I doubt anyone would really want to work with it.

You can in many free to play games do the same. It is just very very frustrating experience. And in SC's case, untill next wipe.

No more wipes until server meshing. And as this thread would make you believe, that means no more wipes - ever!

 

[VR jefranklin18]

A gentle reminder that:

CIG’s habit of constantly missing internal deadlines is not considered normal within the industry.

The factors which drive such issues are also well known within the industry.

Some dev quotes on CIG’s missed deadlines & related controversies:



Although to infer what’s going on inside the 'most transparent game company ever', we have to turn to leaks such as the Jennison letter, and less verifiable dev gossip:

Consistent, but unverifiable, dev gossip on CIG’s poor internal practices:

Those are all Derek Smart alts and you know it

 

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Derek Smalt

 

[Viajero]

That backers take all the risk, while CIG get most of the benefit can't really be labelled a scam because it's been obviously since day one.

I think we are all conversant in what a crowdfunded project is and it’s inherent risks, I agree. But there is a very big difference between your usual Kickstarter with a start, an end, a specific scope and an estimated delivery date… And a crowdfunded project that decides to change its scope, put forth multiple deadlines that rarely meets and constantly misrepresent status of the game and roadmaps to hype up sales.

Some Kickstaers succeed, others fail, but the Kickstarter that abuse its terms usually gets its retribution reasonably quickly. SC has been constantly misrepresenting its status and has cashed in on that for 10+ years and counting without a release in sight.

As an example among many others, do you think Chris Roberts did not willingly misrepresent the state of the PU when he announced in Gamescom 2016 that all that was slated for 3.0 (including the full Stanton system) was going to be their big end of the year release? And everything else described up to 4.0 estimated over 2017? It is 2022 and Stanton is not even fully finished yet, never mind everything left up to 4.0 (repair, salvage, farming, rescue, exploration, jumping and new systems). Do you really believe Chris Roberts truly thought all that had a reasonable chance to be ready by then?

CIG‘s whole business model is essentially based on getting money through constant misrepresentations (backers risk is probably a polite way to put it in this case, what about « marks taken advantage of »?). I don’t know if the precise term is scam or fraud etc, but if not those what would you call it?

 

[Cotic]

All this wonderful stuff coming by the end of the year, and look at all this wonderful stuff coming in the next 12 months. Isn't it wonderful?! Oh, and by the way here is a $750 spaceship you can buy to be ready for all this wonderful stuff we are making for you!

Thanks for the $5M, you're so wonderful

Wonderful stuff coming soon!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

SQ42 was rebooted in 2016 and 2019!!!

Reason for S42 delay a project reboot? - Star Citizen Spectrum

WARNING – Wall of Text. TldR. I believe the reason for the S42 delay is a project reboot, partial or full, after a “failed to meet expectations” play test some time spring 2019. That’s why the...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Someone makes a post about jackfrags positive coverage.

Positive Star Citizen coverage from jackfrags - Star Citizen Spectrum

The game has been very stable lately and I've been hoping more people would start to notice. This is good stuff, whether you care about streamers is besides the point, but Jack just told his 3.8...

robertsspaceindustries.com

But someone points out how he shilled for Battlefield

He’s a BF guy who was recently accused of massively selling out because of his insanely positive position on BF2042 with essentially no mention of the tremendous amount of bugs and issues with the game.

Speculation is that he was part of one of these wonderful examples of corporate morality:

https://www.cinemablend.com/games/E...-Battlefield-4-Need-Speed-Coverage-61773.html

Well, more specifically, shilled for EA and Dice... how low can you go???

Isn't this supposed to be posted in the fan creations subforum? /s

No you silly billy, because its positive. Positive stuff can stay in General. Only critical stuff gets moved to fan creations! Oh, you put a /s, carry on

Dear CIG, you are ruining the gaming experience for us - Star Citizen Spectrum

premise: it is not a fanboy post and excuse me for my bad english. Missiles bugged for months now, you shoot and your ship explodes, if you are lucky you shoot them because often missiles do not...

robertsspaceindustries.com

At the very least, you won't have to worry about CIG adding anything more this year.

CIG expansion. How will this be funded? - Star Citizen Spectrum

I have been reading about CIG's planned expansion over the next 5 years and the huge growth that they are planning in a very short space of time. The company will be adding hundreds of new staff in...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Someone putting some thought into this.

I couldn't speculate, I have no idea how this sort of thing works. My only option is to have faith that CIG knows what they're doing.

#notacult

Keep this in mind, Chris probably knows a fair bit about business administration. Not only from games, but also from producing movies. @Ortwin_Freyermuth probably has even more, he's an accomplished lawyer. And they have a huge pool of industry veterans like @Erinroberts_cig, @ToddPapy, Brian Chambers etc backing them up. I find that encouraging.

Dear gods...

 

[govny]

There are no engines specifically made for space games.

Unigine 2

Unreal Engine 5

NEW! Large World Coordinates (LWC)​

In Preview 1, we’ve laid the groundwork for creating absolutely massive worlds in Unreal Engine 5—without the need for rebasing or other tricks—by adding initial support for Large World Coordinates (LWC). In addition to moving to the use of double-precision values under the hood, we’ve focused heavily on performance and memory optimization to help ensure that these changes have very little overhead.

 

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Todd Poopy