Feminizing Imperial Ranks

[Fake Newts]

we are speaking about having title equivalent, which already exist and is feasible in game, for people who represent roughly HALF of the world population.

For clarification, I'm a feminist (as is everyone who believes in gender equality, technically speaking) maybe more engaged than most. I agree very strongly with your sentiment about representation - however I think the issue of gendered titles, particularly for professions, is ground for a valid debate and honestly probably was considered by Frontier given the prominence of Emperor Arissa in their lore. She's not called Emperor by accident (probably).

Many people who identify as women would be happy to leave stuff like the suffix "-ess" behind. Gendered nouns can carry a lot of unwanted baggage with them... in this case years of subjugation and systemically imposed inequality (through male primogeniture, marriage rights etc.). Nouns like doctor, teacher, paramedic, scaffolder or pyromaniac all get by perfectly fine without having to be split into gendered subcategories, so we know it can work.

The difficulty comes in changing 'active' vocabulary. What could we do to move towards inclusive language that shakes off historical inequality in this context?

A) call everyone by the male title (Duke): the problem being it makes people think women are being written out, even if that wasn't the intention or if others see them as being written in.

B) call everyone by the female title (Duchess): difficult because historically the male title holds the power, or is more respected, this causes discomfort for some, (particularly conservative men) and more pragmatically because the feminine version is a compound with a suffix (it's not the root, and it's longer.)

C) just bypass all this and make a new word for both: this doesn't really work well in real life, not many people are very receptive to esperanto-esque targeted moves like this. Maybe because it's easier for people to laugh at and discredit, (changing actress to actor is less of a leap than asking to rename both gumbleflup.) In a fictional world it's much easier to do... Look at any number of prior works of sci fi or fantasy, but fdev belong to a particular 1980s school where stuff is just Thatcherism in space and therefore not hugely imaginative in this way.

Long story short, it's not categorically laziness, error or sexism on fdev's part (edit: not ruling that out, though I hope not). Depends which school of feminism you subscribe to. I spent the day asking my friends what they thought about it and most said they found it both easy and encouraging to imagine a future where a woman could be emperor or king and didn't need a diminutive suffix or an alternative word derived from the same root as c**t.

It's an interesting topic for sure, and worth taking the time to think about.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Maybe, but they use real life titles, not fictional one. If the king title was called "Porlopus", then sure. But King is a real life title, with a female equivalent, Queen.

But its still fiction, and thus equating one label with another is not necessary if thats the desire of what the person writing wants.

I want it to stay as it is with an emphasis on the male, simply because it creates tension and interest from a lore standpoint when the Imps are faced with the current ruler who is a woman, who has to walk the line between tradition and her wishes. If she gets that wrong and annoys the wrong people, she's dead- that, or that ALD can't enact what she wants.

 

[Erei]

But its still fiction, and thus equating one label with another is not necessary if thats the desire of what the person writing wants.

I want it to stay as it is with an emphasis on the male, simply because it creates tension and interest from a lore standpoint when the Imps are faced with the current ruler who is a woman, who has to walk the line between tradition and her wishes. If she gets that wrong and annoys the wrong people, she's dead- that, or that ALD can't enact what she wants.

But the Empire doesn't seem to have any kind of patriarchal tradition. They seems to have always been equal on the gender right (not really for worker's right). Their first leader ever was a female. She died (totally an accident) and the first emperor was a male, but it's not indicative of anything.
If anything, traditions are one of equality when it comes to gender.

As for the current title holder, it was a competitions between 2 females (Hadrian was excluded, if I'm not mistaken), so gender doesn't seem to have ever been an issue. And I never heard ALD being criticized for her gender.


A society born nearly a thousand year after ours will certainly have a different set of traditions. More modern ones, that's usually how it works. Traditions today are not the same they were back in the middle age.
Are you considering prejudice toward left handed, female in general, or people born with disabilities/mental health issues, black cat as tradition ? Or your King being God gifted ? Of course not. It was all traditions in the past. It's not anymore.


I understand for the Emperor title. The first Emperor was a male, and so on.
But the other ones ? Not so much.



Plus fiction can be rewritten. Especially when it's minor. Elite was made in 1984, back when we had a lot more prejudice.
I mean, I don't see who's going to cry because a character they don't play will get to be called "Duchess". Something they'll literally never see, or be made aware of, unless they to play a female character.

 

[Fake Newts]

More modern ones, that's usually how it works.

Again, why would gendered nouns be a sign of modernism in the future when current modernisation of language is working to eliminate them? Can you read my last post and let me know what you think?

 

[Erei]

Again, why would gendered nouns be a sign of modernism in the future when current modernisation of language is working to eliminate them? Can you read my last post and let me know what you think?

I haven't seen any sign of your "modernism" in my life, so maybe it's a local thing ? To me it's quite the opposite actually, titles that are not gender neutral tend to get expanded or we use another one. IE stuff like "fireman". A few years ago, cities skyline swapped the name for something else, since fireman are not always men. And firewoman doesn't exist/sound silly.
And if the title exist in both female and male version, they both get used, depending on the recipient.

Also, why would future "modern" names use only male names ? It would make sense to use roughly 50/50. That's how equality works after all. So following this logic, I fully endorse half the imperial to be female, and the other being male.



Still it seems I'm the only who see the irony, when there is a debate for misused words when it's gender related, but not otherwise. If they misused the "boat" instead of "ship", people would agree that it need to be changed.
But hey, they use King instead of Queen, as per definitions, and not only it's OK, but also, it would be a mistake to change it !

 

[Rubbernuke]

But the Empire doesn't seem to have any kind of patriarchal tradition. They seems to have always been equal on the gender right (not really for worker's right). Their first leader ever was a female. She died (totally an accident) and the first emperor was a male, but it's not indicative of anything.
If anything, traditions are one of equality when it comes to gender.

As for the current title holder, it was a competitions between 2 females (Hadrian was excluded, if I'm not mistaken), so gender doesn't seem to have ever been an issue. And I never heard ALD being criticized for her gender.


A society born nearly a thousand year after ours will certainly have a different set of traditions. More modern ones, that's usually how it works. Traditions today are not the same they were back in the middle age.
Are you considering prejudice toward left handed, female in general, or people born with disabilities/mental health issues, black cat as tradition ? Or your King being God gifted ? Of course not. It was all traditions in the past. It's not anymore.


I understand for the Emperor title. The first Emperor was a male, and so on.
But the other ones ? Not so much.



Plus fiction can be rewritten. Especially when it's minor. Elite was made in 1984, back when we had a lot more prejudice.
I mean, I don't see who's going to cry because a character they don't play will get to be called "Duchess". Something they'll literally never see, or be made aware of, unless they to play a female character.

Its a matter of having differences in the game, otherwise, whats the point of having different powers or superpowers in lore if they act all the same, and have the same views?

The Empire was founded by a woman who wanted it to be more democratic, but was killed by a male relative who made the Empire what it is- heavily class based and parochial, since he purged all females from the line. I fully expect a large contingent of the Senate are traditionalists too and dislike having a woman in what they see as a male role. Having that permeate the Empire gives the s.power internal tension and an ethical black mark- especially now because you have a male heir.

From what I recall the Feds are more equal regards sex, but instead view wealth and money creation as a yardstick. And the Alliance having its own members views respected- both good and bad.

Plus fiction can be rewritten. Especially when it's minor. Elite was made in 1984, back when we had a lot more prejudice.

Its amusing that you think there is less prejudice today, when in reality its just moved elsewhere.

 

[CMDRQuainMarln]

Duke/King might work for me personally as a man who identifies as being a man, but there will be commanders who don't identify as being either gender or are gender fluid. Now what?
Perhaps in the future the old male pronouns are considered gender neutral.

 

[Northpin]

Duke/King might work

So why are we having issues with Duke / King and not with the corresponding fed ranks Vice Admiral / Admiral?
They're both (honorary) military ranks in this context

 

[GJ51]

So why are we having issues with Duke / King and not with the corresponding fed ranks Vice Admiral / Admiral?
They're both (honorary) military ranks in this context

Admiral is gender neutral

Masculine - Duke, King

Feminine - Duchess, Queen

Gender neutral - Duch, Quing


I so woke...

 

[Northpin]

Admiral is gender neutral

Masculine - Duke, King

Feminine - Duchess, Queen

Gender neutral - Duch, Quing


I so woke...

In 1000 years King and Duke can also become gender neutral.
Like Emperor Arissa

 

[JetsonRING]

Well, there are actually some girls playing this game. ;-)

Even if the Imperial ranks above "Duke" don't currently serve any purpose, it feels weird to be "King" when you should actually be a "Queen" - even if Queen of nothing. ;-)

I'm absolutely not in programming but perhaps its possible for the devs to catter for us feminine players by adding something like an "if, then" related to the gender of the character so that Imperial Ranks are feminized if your character is a girl (Federal ranks are gender-free). The immersion would definitely be greater if we could have adequate Imperial ranks directly related to our gender. ;-)

Wow. Fifty years of feminism out the window.

 

[Erei]

So far it seems all the people who are against the idea have no argument why they are against it. They disagree because they don't have any argument for. Which mean you are OK then ?
Rubbernuke is the only one who actually have an argument against it.

Its a matter of having differences in the game, otherwise, whats the point of having different powers or superpowers in lore if they act all the same, and have the same views?

The Empire was founded by a woman who wanted it to be more democratic, but was killed by a male relative who made the Empire what it is- heavily class based and parochial, since he purged all females from the line.

I only remember Marlin being killed, I don't remember anybody else. And that was only because she held the "title".
The throne was contested by aisling and ALD, both female. The only male in the line was not considered. Indicating the succession is gender agnostic.

And we have 2 non duval senators for PP, one is female the other is male. When galnet news came with senators having kidnapped the Emperor, one of them was female. Indicating female senators are not an isolated case.

As for anybody lower than senator, there doesn't seem to be any kind of prejudice. Imperial factions mission givers don't seem to be mostly male, Hadrian wife rise through the rank to the top with apparently no gender issue, and so on.

I fully expect a large contingent of the Senate are traditionalists too and dislike having a woman in what they see as a male role. Having that permeate the Empire gives the s.power internal tension and an ethical black mark- especially now because you have a male heir.

Correction, Hadrian has been kinda pardoned, and his son is literally the only heir the entire Duval line seems to have at this point. His gender is totally irrelevant in that case. They would nominate a thargoid if that was his son,at this point.

Its amusing that you think there is less prejudice today, when in reality its just moved elsewhere.

Humans gotta be humans. It still won't stop me from fighting prejudice.

So why are we having issues with Duke / King and not with the corresponding fed ranks Vice Admiral / Admiral?
They're both (honorary) military ranks in this context

Vice admiral/admiral are gender neutral.
Duke/kings are not.

It's surprising that I seem to know more about English language than some people on this forum, despite English not being my native language.

 

[ubermick]

The imperial rank titles are idiotic anyways. Imagine becoming a Duke, Earl, Prince, or King by doing data missions. Why not just change the silly ranks to air force ranks, since the Feds use the naval ones?

None	None	None
1	Outsider	Outsider
2	Serf	Private
3	Master	Flight Sergeant
4	Squire	Warrant Officer
5	Knight	Pilot Officer
6	Lord	Flying Officer
7	Baron	Flight Lieutenant
8	Viscount	Squadron Leader
9	Count	Wing Commander (hee!)
10	Earl	Group Captain
11	Marquis	Commodore
12	Duke	Vice Marshal
13	Prince	Marshal
14	King	Chief Marshal

 

[Northpin]

Vice admiral/admiral are gender neutral.
Duke/kings are not.

Elite is set in the future.
In 1000 years king can be gender neutral. Especially since it's not a nobility rank but a military rank (and military ranks are gender neutral)

Also... Arissa, Emperor

Just saying

 

[CMDRQuainMarln]

So why are we having issues with Duke / King and not with the corresponding fed ranks Vice Admiral / Admiral?
They're both (honorary) military ranks in this context

Well, admiral is not gender specific in the year 2022: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-60029188
Perhaps in the future the old male pronouns are considered gender neutral.

In 1000 years King and Duke can also become gender neutral.
Like Emperor Arissa

Was the very point I was making with "Perhaps in the future the old male pronouns are considered gender neutral."
Bets policy to take since bringing gender into it invites complications for non male or female gender identities.

 

[GJ51]

In 1000 years King and Duke can also become gender neutral.
Like Emperor Arissa

That would be empressive.

 

[Fake Newts]

IE stuff like "fireman". A few years ago, cities skyline swapped the name for something else, since fireman are not always men. And firewoman doesn't exist/sound silly.

I addressed this in my post, yeah. Adapting words and changing language is a slow and complicated process. It's also one which doesn't have a lot of easy answers. You being this categorical about it despite seemingly not being aware of a large segment of feminist debate on the topic is evidence of this.

And if the title exist in both female and male version, they both get used, depending on the recipient.

The example of actor and actress has already been given, it's probably the most publicised example. Many female actors ask for the -ess to be removed. The -ess being an additional gendered suffix.

Also, why would future "modern" names use only male names ?

I actually went into that in a post too but it seems like you just skimmed it. Maybe read it again, I'll also try to get some article links from feminist writers on the issue. As I've said, it's a complex issue and really deserves a deeper analysis than a few paragraphs on a game subforum. One reason though is that male nouns are 'where the power is' systemically, and grammatically where the root is in many cases (due to ye olde systemic sexism, see?)

Completely changing to a new word is technically the fairest thing to do but also the hardest as it requires adoption from a whole society, many of whom are behind the curve.

 

[Northpin]

We're discussing ranks in Elite. Military ranks
And my point is military ranks are gender neutral

Even now, they're gender neutral
Jude Terry is Rear Admiral
Before being promoted to Rear Admiral, she held the rank of Commodore

Sharon Nesmith is Major General in British Army
Before being promoted to Major General, she was a Brigadier.

In Elite, Duke is a military rank not a nobility rank.
Same as King

And this is before we get into feminist stuff and politics.

 

[CMDRQuainMarln]

Anyone else looking forward to shooting Thargoids in an Alliance Chieftess?
I'll get my coat.....

 

[Northpin]

As good as this one

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xb-oLS-cyY&t=16s