I hate player minor factions

[Morbad]

They can never return (unless the rules on permit systems change again).

That's a pretty rare situation to be in.

Anyway, LHS 2541 Alliance Combine still exists. Even if it's possible to categorically exclude them from a system, that's only one of countless potential goals. Plus, the permit system is itself part of the issue I have. I've never liked that the permit mechanisms were absolute, or that the authority enforcing it couldn't be challenged.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

McFactions have certainly reduced the core systems to utter blandness. That said they make bounties relevant, I had to go quite some distance to dock after an Odyssey mission failed to update and stuck an 8k bounty on my head.

 

[goemon]

i'm generally also not happy with PMF as an idea, and i think squadrons would have been the right feature for similar player group involvement.

and that's me, who has played BGS before PMFs became a thing.

but most of the described problems are NOT bound to PMF.
a) i have been pushed from homesystems by wings of players who picked up/adopted a faction before PMF.
b) there is a bunch of relatively large NPC-factions. some are pushed by powerplayers, some expand all the time because people like their space/missions, and missions are bound to reputation. if you run a PMF in certain regions there is no fun mechanic NOT TO EXPAND.

so, i think the problem is mainly two-fold:

1. BGS misses some "upkeep"-mechanic, which would lead to not expanding as easily from your next system by number of systems and distance to home system.

2. BGS has the "elite best friends" problem. positive influence actions are overpowered, good reputation opens too many mission opportunities, while bad reputation doesn't etc.

PMFs themselves are not the problem. most control exactly 1 system. others none.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

The main thing I hate with a vengeance about BGS conflict is that, despite all the logarithmic curves of diminishing returns, the player who is willing to dedicate the most time to the game almost always comes out on top. No game should rule my life!
I have still tried to push a number of smaller anarchies until the inevitable ‘democratic’ player group comes along and destroys it all in a few days while blowing their righteous trumpet.
I am now in paranoid territory, as it seems that certain groups appear to follow me around (to be fair my cmdr is visible on their system bounty boards, but where are the boards for the biggest lawful grinder with no real life lol)

 

[babelfisch]

If we didn't have PMF people would just adopt already existing factions (which is what they actually did before PMF existed).

Workers of Manite for example are present in 110 star systems*. Apart from choosing a name and a home system people don't have any control over a PMF that would make them somehow special compared to premade factions.

As someone else already said, if you don't like the concept of PMFs you actually don't like the concept of the BGS.

*Another very prominent example are Dukes of Mikunn, who already started expanding due to player action 2 years before PMFs even existed...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'd like to see a mechanism where increased expansion and asset ownership required significantly more effort to achieve and maintenance to upkeep (making control of large regions a decent challenge even unopposed), possibly in conjunction with a reduction in effort to take control of a system by a native faction (PMF or otherwise) to encourage new players & groups to join in.

Yes. At the moment system ownership is essentially self-stabilising (for non-Anarchy factions, anyway) as almost all the influence from passing traffic will end up with the system controller. If that wasn't the case maintaining more than a few systems would actually require significant effort, especially in the busier systems. Bonuses to native factions would I think have to be very significant to matter in most cases, but would be a nice touch, too.

I wouldn't want them to tie anything explicitly to the present/control system count of a faction, because that would just end up benefiting Communism Interstellar and Powerplay BGS teams (who openly adopt and manage multiple factions) over other PMFs, without really changing the situation.

I mean isn't it a bit unrealistic that a PMF which seems (according to INARA that is) to have 94 supporters in squadrons and 43 individuals can control 30 systems and 80 stations and be present in 60 systems?

Assuming a reasonably typical level of activity of those members, a much smaller (on paper) dedicated group could probably reduce that control number quite significantly, should they have the motivation. Much of the ease of grabbing territory at the moment is because a lot of it isn't meaningfully contested, because the bubble is so large, and focused action in most systems (a few very busy ones aside) can easily overcome unfocused "passing traffic" actions. In another year or two, that might change quite a bit as active conquest will be the only way for PMFs to obtain more space.

Colonia - where there isn't a surplus of space - has seen at least three groups build up sizable empires (by comparison to the size of the region), annoy enough people in the process to attract a coalition against them, and lose it all again. While the default state is stability and stagnation, down can be a lot faster than up if people are trying to make it happen.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Personally it's the idea that any player supported faction could rival a superpower in size which doesn't really work. If you're talking realism- a faction from the bottom of the pile in a system with a population of 100 can take over and expand to take over 100 systems and end up controlling billions in a couple of years or less, basically going from a few people to billions under their control.

Then there's factions like these:

So, yeah, I'd be fine if people did it with the same factions that were already in game. We just need some checks and balances on the size a faction can be.

Although all is not lost for a solo player or small group though. What you can do here us play insurrectionist. Any large faction will have a bunch of low population systems and it's relatively easy to start wars in these systems if you do a few different activities. You probably won't be noticed as large factions can't keep an eye on every system, so you can have a bit of fun starting wars whilst feeling like leading a rebellion. You won't win the war but you'll gain a bunch of credits and mats out of it. Then just pick another system.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Without the BGS and PMF we would have a very dead game. It's one of the few endgame things players can do after they've done everything else, and quite a few squadrons exist mostly for that purpose only and their players keep being engaged for that purpose only. Powerplay is the only other endgame activity provided by the game itself, but a very different one. I know a lot of BGS players who would never do Powerplay due to how that works.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Without the BGS and PMF we would have a very dead game. It's one of the few endgame things players can do after they've done everything else, and quite a few squadrons exist mostly for that purpose only and their players keep being engaged for that purpose only. Powerplay is the only other endgame activity provided by the game itself, but a very different one. I know a lot of BGS players who would never do Powerplay due to how that works.

I don't think anyone is arguing that, it's just that right now the goal of BGS play is seemingly getting your system controlling as many things as possible, when having to manage your expansion to prevent negative effects from being overstretched would lead to more thought out gameplay, especially if you tried starting a war whilst your empire was already overstretched, for example.

The only end game from the current system is large factions that control everything who manage everything with agreements. Everything goes stagnant.

 

[Riverside]

I wouldn't want them to tie anything explicitly to the present/control system count of a faction, because that would just end up benefiting Communism Interstellar and Powerplay BGS teams (who openly adopt and manage multiple factions) over other PMFs, without really changing the situation.

You make a good point about player groups supporting a faction type (government in these cases) but personally I don't have an issue with this and of the 30-ish factions I have/had an interest in a significant portion are/were Feudals because I did a lot of work in Hudson space & although I have never pledged I worked with them rather than going against what I see as benevolent dictator groups. I have a good relationship with the Hudson PP team in particular, and we have helped each other to achieve common goals (keeping the peace mostly). I feel for the PP players, and don't wish to make their lives any harder.


The main downside I see to having a single faction owning lots of assets & systems is when a Cmdr gets on the wrong side of the law and needs to find a safe haven to dock at.

PP groups & 'faction type' (rather than one specific faction) supporters don't create this issue, although I agree having single faction types over swathes of systems creates blandness & I favour variety - I once described what I did as returning ploughed fields to meadows. Colonia looks like a varied meadow when I occasionally visit, although because many systems aren't full and most factions are supported by experienced Cmdrs working it has a different feel that I enjoy less. It feels like wherever I go I am stepping on someones toes. Colonia is nice, but I generally prefer the bubble even with it's huge factions.

 

[babelfisch]

Personally it's the idea that any player supported faction could rival a superpower in size which doesn't really work. If you're talking realism- a faction from the bottom of the pile in a system with a population of 100 can take over and expand to take over 100 systems and end up controlling billions in a couple of years or less, basically going from a few people to billions under their control.

Rome and (especially) early Muslim conquests are good examples for going from a few people to billions.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Rome and (especially) early muslim conquests are good examples for going from a few people to billions.

Not in 7 years though.

 

[babelfisch]

Not in 7 years though.

I believe Alexander the Great managed to do that though and Islamic expansion didn't take much longer.

PS

 

[Urbanski101]

Thank you OP. I've been wanting to say this for so long.

I also hate PMFs. I've had to move home twice because the same PMF took over and completely changed the dynamic of those systems. Now I'm a wandering hermit with my FC as my home.

The way they were implemented was / is a joke. "Dear David, may I please have my own PMF called (insert ridiculous name). Oh and please can you place it in a high pop traffic hub where I can inflict maximum lulz....oh yes and please never remove it even if I only play for a week and never return."

What game does that? You don't have to earn it, there seem to be zero restrictions and they are permanent. Given the hours it takes to do anything in ED, engineer a single module to grade 5 (from scratch, as an example), or back in the day earn enough to buy an Anaconda, but if you want to add a PMF, all you need is a nicely worded email to FD. What??

The very least they should have done was insert these PMFs into low pop systems on the fringes of the bubble. But no.

I do understand for the minority that actively support their own PMF it must be a hoot spreading the 'lulz' all over the bubble. For me, it's a real annoyance and dare I say it 'immersion breaking'.

I actively work against PMFs any chance I get although I know most of the time it's an exercise in futility, however if I can cause trouble in one of their system wars, I will.

I'm sure the group that took over the systems I called home are a nice bunch, but honestly it now seems like every other system is controlled by a PMF...

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I believe Alexander the Great managed to do that though and Islamic expansion didn't take much longer.

PS

Yeah, how much of that space was unpopulated desert? Could you do that now with modern militaries?

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Rome and (especially) early Muslim conquests are good examples for going from a few people to billions.

Eh, not billions, merely millions. The total world population around Alexander's conquests was less than 100 million people. Around the muslim expansion it was around 200-300 million, and even historically, quite a lot of that population was already mostly in India and China. It took until 1800 AD before even 1 billion total was reached. When I was born, there were only 4 billion people.

 

[babelfisch]

Yeah, how much of that space was unpopulated desert? Could you do that now with modern militaries?

And how much space is unpoluated vacuum?!

 

[babelfisch]

Eh, not billions, merely millions. The total world population around Alexander's conquests was less than 100 million people. Around the muslim expansion it was around 200-300 million, and even historically, quite a lot of that population was already mostly in India and China. It took until 1800 AD before even 1 billion total was reached. When I was born, there were only 4 billion people.

This is completely irrelevant because we are talking about the principle and not actual numbers. How you can seriously compare the actual population of the world to an imaginary space game is beyond me.
The claim was that few people can't rule over many and that claim is just wrong.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

And how much space is unpoluated vacuum?!

Yes, but we measure how big a faction is by the number of systems they control or are present in. What space that covers is unimportant.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

This is completely irrelevant because we are talking about the principle and not actual numbers. How you can seriously compare the actual population of the world to an imaginary space game is beyond me.
The claim was that few people can't rule over many and that claim is just wrong.

The scales involved are like you and me saying we could take over Africa in a couple of years.