1.3 Mining - Big List of Issues and Suggestions

[Veth]

So Mining has gone through some big changes in 1.3 and of course that has including some growing pains. Still, as a dedicated miner since about 1.1 who remembers when roughly 300k an hour was the most I could make, to pulling in 2.5+ million an hour now (and finally being able to fund my Imperial Clipper upgrade and achieve Broker status all through selling metals) I'm definitely excited about the future.

However, there are still certain issues holding the profession back and I'm here to discuss my thoughts and suggestions to make things work better.

TL;DR look at the bolded Suggestion parts:



Collector Limpet Controller

Probably the most anticipated change for mining: the collection drones. Very buggy at first though now that some of the more major bugs have been corrected, a clear boost to mining speed and reason to buy a bigger starship. Aside from the ongoing "deploy cargo hatch" and refinery connection errors (or that the limpets sometimes suicide against asteroids) my main issue with them is the lackluster larger class modules.

Most modules increase in power exponentially, most notably cargo racks which double in size each class upgrade. But the collector controllers only go up by 1 max limpet each class, and skip a number as well. So when fitting a class 7 module and given the choice to give up 128 tons of cargo space for a mere 4 max limpets - which you can get instead using two class 3 modules (a total value of 16 tons of cargo) there really isn't a choice at all.

The other glaring problem with the collectors is that they don't discriminate between what they collect. Did you get overloaded and decide to dump some of your less valuable minerals? Too bad, those active collectors are gonna pick them right back up! Is there some nearby stolen property floating around? Enjoy your fine, cause they are gonna get those too! Basically we need more control over what gets picked up. Considering that the single target "grab one item and die" mode seems mostly useless, I would start there.

Suggestions:

• Keep area collect mode as is. Make targeted mode still area collect as well, but only for the type of item targeted. Have ore fragment as target when deployed = only pick up ore fragments. Target clean cargo, don't pick up stolen cargo as well.
• Make the class 5 & 7 collector modules match with the prospector ones, where 5 = 4 max limpets and 7 = 8 limpets.

Honestly even with the change to max limpets I doubt I would ever use the class 7. I do run a 5 right now so I can have a swarm of collectors, but at the expense of running without shields (non-RES mining). Also because the modules skip a class each increase (1/3/5/7) I find myself many times having a class 3 in a class 4 slot, etc, basically wasting the potential of my ship modules. And this affects not only collectors, but also prospectors, fuel, and hatch breaker limpets. So what I would really like to see is:

More Radical Suggestion:

• Remake all Limpet Modules to have class 1/2/3/4 with max limpets 1/2/4/8.

Now I can fit enough collectors and/or prospectors on my large Clipper without dropping shields, being forced to use only a single prospector, or skimping too much on cargo space. Its not like this is overpowered at all, mining isn't in danger of making too much money right now. This also makes it more viable for the smaller ships to start using limpets earlier. Plus with this change pilots might be more likely to start carrying around a fuel transferer to help out some noob who ran out of gas.



Prospector Limpet Controller

This one is more controversial. A few swear by them, many others claim they are useless. I personally do use them and feel they help my mining. Yes they are single use unlike the collectors in area mode, but in a larger ship like a Clipper I have enough space to use them at least part of the time, mainly to go ahead and check a further away asteroid while I'm still finishing up with the one I'm currently mining.

First let's talk advantages, big and small:

• They let you see all three metals/minerals in the asteroid, and at precise percentages.
• You can sample a rock that is not in laser cutting range.
• You are notified exactly when the rock is depleted instead of watching carefully for the fragments to stop.
• Can give you a rough distance to the rock for easier approach.

My real biggest issue with them is they are just too slow. I use them to sample further away rocks while I'm still collecting from the one I'm currently mining. Other times I'll shoot one off and then race it there. While they usually do get there before me once I start to slow down, its just barely. They need to be a lot faster.

My other issue is that I only ever use a class 1 which has a single max active limpet. Why? Aside from having room to fit larger modules (see radical suggestion above) or that they move so slow to shoot multiple ones, mainly because keeping track of more than one prospector limpet is a pain. Aim and target doesn't work so well when you've got collectors, fragments, and other ships all flying around. And they are hard to see so its easy to lose them if you don't keep the one you fired targeted the whole time.

I can use the Contacts menu to manually select them of course... but with a swarm of collectors flying around, the only way to know which are my prospectors is to manually go through the entire list and see which ones actually has asteroid feedback information. Because both limpets look exactly the same in the Contacts menu. If only there was a quick way to tell them apart in the menu...

Suggestions:

• Make them faster. Double or triple the speed so they quickly get to the desired asteroid.
• Give some indication in Contacts menu to differentiate collectors from prospectors. Like the color coding already used in game.

Even with this change though they are still somewhat awkward, and more importantly space limitation continues to be an issue as they are single use unlike the area mode collectors. So maybe its time to take the suggestion many have brought up and completely replace them:

More Radical Suggestion:

• Remove Prospectors, replace them with a scanner. It can scan in a radius around the ship and make all asteroids in that area become targetable and listed in Contacts menu exactly as prospector limpets work now.

Increase range based on rating, maybe 1/2/3/4 km - less or more whatever is most balanced around both usefulness and not having the screen completely cluttered with targets. Scan a second time and the original ones expire the same way old prospector limpets do when max active number is exceeded. Simple.



Resource Extraction Sites

The infamous RES. Haunt of bounty hunters and miners alike. The theory behind RES is a great example of risk vs reward: mine more rich reserves at the risk of being attacked by pirates looking for a fat mining ship like yourself. Stick to a Low Intensity one for less pirates but not quite as rich, or risk it all in High Intensity. Or even better, go to HI RES with some bounty hunter escorts who can kill the pirates while you mine in peace for big bucks.

However the execution of this idea isn't quite there. This topic is problematic for me to analyze because I'm not 100% sure what the RES mechanics are. I have definitely noticed that rocks seem to have a chance of having a larger number of fragments in each one and had other miners agree. And it seems that there is a limited radius around the RES marker that gives a bonus.

Overall the bonus doesn't seem to be great enough to justify the risk. I can mine outside of RES and almost never see a pirate depending on the system - hence why I usually forego shields for extra limpets/cargo. And I also think there could be more incentive for bounty hunters to join miners - right now miners need them more than they need us. Perhaps if the wing trade % bonus were higher. And of course if miners actually made more money there to boost that percentage.

Suggestions:

• Greater boost to fragments or overall richness in RES, especially in HI RES. Risk is not only npc pirates, but if miners were juicier targets perhaps player pirates would hunt for solitary miners in LOW RES.
• Perhaps a boost to the trade bonus in wings?

Mining Missions

Another new addition, and one that is somewhat becoming a double-edged sword to miners. My two issues with the missions is that 1) they are boring and 2) they are overpowered.

Right now I've been making about 2.5 - 2.8 million an hour in my Imperial Clipper. Probably at least half of that or more is all from mining missions. How much I make really depends on how many missions I get. If I didn't take any, I would likely make closer to 1 million an hour. For someone is a Clipper that is pretty pathetic compared to what most other professions are doing right now.

Basically, missions are the only way to make mining profitable at all currently. This leads to bulletin board farming which isn't fun. Unlike many other missions which are about delivering specific cargo to a specific port, or killing a specific pirate leader, these missions are simply a boost to the sell value for generic mined goods no matter where and how they were acquired. The best way to make money as a miner right now is go to out and get plenty of Painite, Platinum, and Osmium and then camp the bulletin board until I get enough missions to 'sell' everything. Leading to logging in and out while rechecking the board. As one fellow miner pointed out, the best way for miners to make credits is to not play the game.

Suggestions:

• First one nitpick - they seem to only be found in High Tech stations. Why not Refinery, Extraction, or even Industrial?
• I would like to see more creative missions that require a specific task as opposed to a payout on metals/minerals already collected.

Of course, if standard non-mission mining were more profitable this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Actually, if missions are reworked then some sort of boost to mining would definitely be needed, as even with missions its still somewhat low and would be very low without the missions. Which leads us to...



Overall Profitability

Its better than 1.3 but its certainly still not quite there. Many of my above suggestions would give a nice boost to profits (I think a prospecting scanner most of all), however if the mining missions are changed that would be a huge decrease in profits.

Suggestions:

• Make above changes such as limpet revamp, RES boost, or addition of prospecting scanner, etc.
• Boost commodity prices for mined-only items - Painite, Platinum, Osmium
• Increase number of fragments that drop from asteroids across the board. This would also give prospecting more value.

There are lots of ways to bump up credit potential, its really just a matter of the Developers realizing its a problem.

 

[Surly_Badger]

Great suggestions!!!

I also would like to add: it would be interesting if there were big metal-strikes outside the bubble. Encourage exploration and long-range mining. I understand that FD wants to use painite to lure people into the RES to be targets for pew pew pew, but it'd be more realistic if there were astronomical objects that have never felt a mining laser... just orbiting out there... waiting for people to discover and scan. That would open whole new avenues for game-play as people saddled up to travel out to where the legendary palladium asteroid was found... T-9s escorted by Pythons, heading 1500ly from human space.

Edit: The prospector limpet, IMO, should be something we can target at a rock, which it will then attach itself to, perform an assay, and ignite a blinky little beacon that I can use to re-locate the same rock. If the limpet is targetted and scanned after that, it shows the assay of the spot where it landed. "Oooh! Platinum!" It could last for an hour or two then explode.

The game-play would then be more realistic: I drop into a mining zone, target a dozen rocks and fire off a dozen limpets which zoom out and prospect and attach themselves. Then I switch to collector drones and mining laser and decide which rock I want to mine, next. It would also be nice in busier rock-farms to be able to not lose track of a good rock. I do that all the time and I hate when that happens. Blinky lights! That would make the prospector limpet valuable, in that it would speed up that part of the mining process; game-play would not suffer - players who wanted to do it the "on the cheap" way could then balance their use of limpets (at all) or collector/prospector balance.

 

[Veth]

The prospector limpet, IMO, should be something we can target at a rock, which it will then attach itself to, perform an assay, and ignite a blinky little beacon that I can use to re-locate the same rock. If the limpet is targetted and scanned after that, it shows the assay of the spot where it landed. "Oooh! Platinum!" It could last for an hour or two then explode.

The game-play would then be more realistic: I drop into a mining zone, target a dozen rocks and fire off a dozen limpets which zoom out and prospect and attach themselves. Then I switch to collector drones and mining laser and decide which rock I want to mine, next. It would also be nice in busier rock-farms to be able to not lose track of a good rock. I do that all the time and I hate when that happens. Blinky lights!

It mostly works like that now, only without the blinky lights and you have to manually shoot each limpet for each rock. Perhaps if a single limpet broke apart into 6 or something and automatically searched out the nearest 6 rocks to mark? That would alleviate part of the cost issue (in terms of cargo space).

 

[KombattWombatt]

Good, well thought out suggestions. I've been trying to dabble in mining since beta. With 1.3 I've started to do it more often, but only when my girlfriend is doing work in the office or something and I want to play but not have to pay much attention... which is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the mining mechanics.

 

[metatheurgist]

For me prospector limpets would triple their functionality if they hung onto a rock after they died to indicate it was already depleted or rejected. The rate of minable rocks needs to be higher, in a pristine metallic I find myself rejecting 80% of the rocks, time wasted on mining and collector limpet lifespan.

 

[Vasious]

I need cross hairs for the prospector Limpet
Embarrassingly I miss, by a small margin, so often

I have seen mission that offer 8 or 9 times the market rate for Osmium
Just they are never on the BB until after I have sold my Osmium

 

[Surly_Badger]

It mostly works like that now, only without the blinky lights and you have to manually shoot each limpet for each rock

I'm not talking about you having to knock a chunk off an asteroid. I'm saying you'd point at the asteroid and fire the limpets; the limpet would go to the asteroid and flag it/assay it. Then you could fire off a bunch of limpets at 4 or 5 nearby asteroids and assay them, then go in to knock off smaller chunks and collect.

Edit: oh, wait. I was just reading Vasious' comment above and .. uh... Do you mean you don't have to knock a chunk off and it works the way I said. AAAAUUGUGGHGUGUGHH!H!HH!H!H!H!H!H!H!H I HAVE BEEN DOING IT ALL WRONG ALL ALOOOOONG!

 

[Veth]

Edit: oh, wait. I was just reading Vasious' comment above and .. uh... Do you mean you don't have to knock a chunk off and it works the way I said. AAAAUUGUGGHGUGUGHH!H!HH!H!H!H!H!H!H!H I HAVE BEEN DOING IT ALL WRONG ALL ALOOOOONG!

Yep, that's how it works. Aim & shoot, limpet goes toward rock (albeit somewhat slower than I would like) and latches on. Target the limpet (can use Contacts menu or by hand) and it will display all metals/minerals and their percentages.

Since 1.3 rocks can have up to 3 different ores in them but fragments only ever have 2. So knocking just one chunk off doesn't always tell you everything inside anymore. It could say 15% Gallite 20% Silver but might actually have Painite too. With the prospector limpet you always know for sure.

 

[CmdrZaratan]

Only thing I'd add to this great list of suggestions is that the prospectors are still bugged and when you fire more than one they terminate in the wrong order. I have a 2 prospector controller, and with one active, firing two will cause the first in flight prospector to terminate rather than the already latched one (most of the time anyway...it's unreliable).

 

[Ice30]

Great post Veth! I approve of all suggestions, however I still think there should be more done to allow mining to scale up to larger ships. One suggestion could be to have class 5 and 6 collector limpets that control even more limpets, in addition to larger class mining lasers which mean large ships can suck an asteroid dry with extreme speed, increasing their profits\hour.

 

[Hellhawk666]

All good suggestions. I still contend there is a problem with having primary production and transport haulage prices identical and traded through the same market. FD has gone so far down this road with the current mining concept that there is little point in asking for any significant change, but the economy remains unbalanced.

...
There are lots of ways to bump up credit potential, its really just a matter of the Developers realizing its a problem.

This. Very much, this.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Great topic!

I would love to see:

Remake all Limpet Modules to have class 1/2/3/4 with max limpets 1/2/4/8

Remove Prospectors, replace them with a scanner. It can scan in a radius around the ship and make all asteroids in that area become targetable and listed in Contacts menu exactly as prospector limpets work now.

Greater boost to fragments or overall richness in RES, especially in HI RES. Risk is not only npc pirates, but if miners were juicier targets perhaps player pirates would hunt for solitary miners in LOW RES.

First one nitpick - they seem to only be found in High Tech stations. Why not Refinery, Extraction, or even Industrial?

A few things i would add though.

Powerplay
with the release of powerplay, only two professions can earn Merits while doing their job.
Bountyhunters can simply hunt in the specific zones, and Traders can simply haul vouchers while running a traderoute.
Explorers and Miners have both nothing to do with Powerplay, even though there is a faction that supports them.
Yong-Rui gives an explorer bonus, while Torval increased demand and supply of mined materials.
For Miners a new kind of ressource could be added, a ressource that is basically a voucher that you can deliver to a station and gain merits for it.

Scaling
While Drone Modules scale in size (1/3/5/7) to increase the amount of drones (i agree with you there, that 1/2/3/4 size would be better...size 7 module for 4 drones is not worth it), Mining Lasers, Asteroid yield (through better lasers) or Refinery efficiency dont.
The Refinery is the worst of them - several different sized refineries with the same amount of bins. But higher sized refineries wont provide any advantage, they are just cheaper.
In my opinion larger sized refineries should a bonus to the yield.
Maybe from 1% for the 4E up to 20% for the 4A.
Also we need Large and Huge Lasers (further suggestion follows now)

Loot Table
Lets be honest, is there any reason to not mine in Pristine Metallic?
Metal Rich, Rocky and Ice have no use at all. The material (if they have any) from there is simply...cheap
Thats why i made a suggestion about a layered loot table.
Basically a system where the loot is split into 4 layers
The first layer can be mined with a Small Laser, this one contains ore with a value up to 1000cr/t
The second layer can be mined with a Medium Laser, this one contains ore with a value between 1000cr/t and 5000cr/t
The third layer can be mined with a Large Laser, this one contains ore with a value between 5000cr/t and 10000cr/t
The core layer can be mined with a Huge Laser, this one contains ore with a value above 10000cr/t
each layer would have a chance to contain the deeper-layer ores, so you would still be able to find painite in layer one, its just rare. The deeper you dig the more common it gets.
So for example layer one would commonly contain layer one ores, uncommonly layer 2, rarely layer 3 and very rarely layer 4 material.
Since there are mostly the same amount of Metal and Mineral per category, you would not be forced to mine in Metallic anymore, the type of the belt/ring would only determine which material the asteroids contain more of. Metal Mineral Rich would contain more Minerals, while Metalic would contain more Metal. Rocky and Ice would need a different use.
So even Metal Rich (Mineral Rich) would be usefull, and it would have a higher chance to contain Painite as a Core (see the link for more informations)
Also this would add scaling for larger ships, since they would have a better chance to get the high valuable core.
Also it would increase the amount of ore per asteroid, so that you wont just mine them for a second and then wait for your drones.

Missions
The idea behind them was nice, but as you said, it needs more love.
There are just 3 types of missions - Platin, Osmium, Painite. All three ores are from Metalic (i guess...who mines in metal rich?)
So not even with missions there is a use for these neglected belts and rings.
But FD cant just add new mission types, since all the other ores can be bought.
Thats where the DDF would come in handy

• Each unit of resource collected fills an empty cargo canister, either as pure resource or as a mixed dust
• Each unit of dust that is collected retains the elemental composition of the asteroid it was mined from

• Refined units are worth slightly less than pure units
• Waste can be combined into units of generic alloys

So, lets hope that we can see some more changes in the near future

 

[bamber]

Must admit what I would like for mining is a "marker" be that a prospector that stays or a separate module.

I tend to base myself right at the edge of occupied space and then head off into the unknown and mine asteroid belts with quite a lot of success - there are usual 10 or so rocks in each one but its hard to track which ones you have mined and which you haven't a wee "marker drone" would be a great help

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I quite like mining but things i would do

mining lasers, level 1, 2 or 3 mine to different depths, the deeper you mine the more likely to get "good" stuff

BUT

rare times to see rare gems or fossils, these need to be cut with precise care from the asteroid otherwise it is lost, and so doign this is FAR easier with level 1 and really tough with level 3 this helps reduced the bigger always better issue.

I would suggest it is very hard to spot these rare "treats" in the asteroid without using a prospector drone, and the better the drone the more likely it is to find such things.

 

[BillD]

Veth,
As a dedicated miner in game, I totally agree with your suggestions and you have also incorporated all of the discussions from Miners in other threads and articulated it well.

In a way I like the fact that prospector limpets are One Use only as this in particular has made me want to upgrade from my mining ASP as I want to carry heaps more of them. I would be quite happy if you could launch them one at a time as now (and yes travel much faster to target) but the last n existing ones hang around for a while. At least then they could be used to show rocks that have already be sampled/mined. As I am moving around if I see one with one of my limpets on it I know I have already been there and I got myself turned around again .
.
I would also love to see some pristine places way out in deep space with really high value, high% yields. More than in any system within the bubble. This would then be another motivation for heading out a long way that would only be worth it in a big ship that can carry heaps and make the long journey really worth it. Then come back and sell. This would aAgain provide another reason or advantage for investing and upgrading in bigger mining ships if you want to.

Bill D


Other than that I am happy that mining is more profitable and I am 35mill closer to my mining Python.



You are right it needs to all be scalable

 

[Twisted Melon]

I've enjoyed using a size 7 prospector module on an Anaconda - fire out all 7 and mine the best rocks, then turn the power off to the Prospector module, poof, they're all gone ready to fire out another 7.

 

[Veth]

then turn the power off to the Prospector module, poof, they're all gone ready to fire out another 7.

Nice!

How long does it take you to fire them all?

 

[BillD]

Hey I just discovered a way to stop Collector drones putting Jettisoned Cargo back in the ship. YAY!!!
I hate it when I jettison junk cargo to make room for the good stuff but the collectors decide to retrieve it andshove it straight back in again Grrr. Well I managed to solve the issue.....
Unlike retrieving ore, when they are retrieving cargo, the cargo container will be destroyed if you are moving at a reasonable speed when they try to pop it back in the scoop.
So now when I jettison stuff and I see they are retrieving the cargo instead of the ore, just before they deposit it, I hit reverse (or forward) thrust and the cargo containers go BOOM! The drones are still intact and continue on. YAY!!! Also helpful if I notice they are bringing back stolen cargo I don't want on board.
Its a far better solution for me compared to turning off the collector controller and popping them, as I only have 64 t of cargo space and this way I don't kill the collectors only the cargo. Also it is a better solution if the ore you want is near ejected cargo. Now the cargo is popped and they then get back to collecting ore.

Bill D

 

[Twisted Melon]

Originally Posted by Twisted Melon
then turn the power off to the Prospector module, poof, they're all gone ready to fire out another 7.



Nice!

How long does it take you to fire them all?



Well you can release one every 5 seconds or so - I found it easiest to be above the roid belt facing towards it, pick a nice looking cluster, start with the rocks furthest away and work closer so they all land at around the same time. Go through them in the contacts list to find you first target, I had 2 x size 5 collectors so 6 pick up drones on the job, go from rock to rock and when your done boost up out of the belt again to get new targets.

 

[Surly_Badger]

Yep, that's how it works. Aim & shoot, limpet goes toward rock (albeit somewhat slower than I would like) and latches on. Target the limpet (can use Contacts menu or by hand) and it will display all metals/minerals and their percentages.

Picture me bashing my head against my desk. Like this:


Except cute.