1.6 vs 2.1 - Elite : Inverse-Paywall?

[Turjan]

Frontier have stated many times that they will never introduce "Pay To Win" elements to this game, and I believe them.

I believe them because they're like us - first and foremost, they're gamers, and there's nothing us gamers hate more than P2W ruining an otherwise awesome game, am I right?

Well unfortunately, Frontier have done just that. They've added P2W to Elite - albeit I believe totally unknowingly and without any sinister motives. In fact I think the opposite is true - it's FDev's enthusiasm for this great game that has caused them to come a cropper here.

What am I banging on about?

NPCs. More specifically, the fact versions 1.6 AND 2.1 of Elite share the same NPCs.

NPCs in 2.1 are currently ridiculously overburdened with Engineer-specific features, because they're the new shiny and Frontier are justifiably pleased with them. But FDev's enthusiasm to include all the good stuff and showcase all that shiny led to the crazy instadeath bug we recently witnessed. So - we've been told that Engineered weapon "special effects" are being removed from NPCs, but we are also told that 'standard' modifications to all modules will remain. This means that people playing 1.6 are now facing ships with features that are only available to players of the 2.1 version - including of course the new Enhanced Performance Thrusters.

So basically by doing that, Frontier have made combat in Elite P2W. If the same player has both 1.6 and 2.1, he will ultimately fare better against NPCs with his 2.1 account because he can kit out a ship with Enhanced Performance Thrusters and Engineer mods that are simply not available to him on his 1.6 account.

But as I say, I don't believe this was a conscious thought on FDev's part. I think it's more a case of being an "Inverse-Paywall", as it were.

With a standard Paywall, content is locked away behind a paid barrier. But what's happening here is that content that should be locked away is being allowed to leak out. Players who are flying v1.6 should not be facing ships with abilities from 2.1 because 2.1 is unavailable to them.

You see the distinction?

There are three solutions to this :-

1 - make all 1.6 players buy 2.1
As desirable as that may be, it's clearly totally unacceptable because that really is P2W!

2 - create a separate, parallel galaxy for 1.6 players where the NPCs do not have 2.1 only modifications and abilities.
Not exactly what you'd call practical really, especially when we consider the whole "offline mode" debacle which essentially centred around that exact topic.

3 - remove ALL Engineer mods from NPCs
Sadly, that's the only sensible solution to prevent very valid accusations of Elite "going P2W".

It's also a logical solution, because game lore itself describes Engineers as mavericks, a shady undergound group who work behind the scenes, close knit with others of their kind, and catering to a very exclusive clientele. Unfortunately at the moment, that exclusive clientele apparently consists of the entire galaxy's NPCs...which rather makes a mockery of the whole 'rare maverick' Engineers concept really, doesn't it?

Anyway, there you go - just my thoughts.

I certainly don't suspect FDev of any wrongdoing in this matter, but it does seem to be an oversight that really must be addressed before any more negative media attention gets drawn to our beloved game! :S

 

[nathdixon92]

The issue is, that Horizons adds so much more to the game than just Engineers. It isn't pay to win because getting upgrades isn't handed to you on a plate and the majority of NPCs don't have engineered upgrades and when they do, bar a select few bugs, they aren't overwhelming. Why should any player group be segregated from interacting with others just because one has paid for the expansion?

The other issue is that with Horizons being an expansion, it runs from the same game as 1.6. Frontier is a business and in order to develop more content for the game, it has to produce dlc. If you chose not to pay that little bit extra for the dlc that's your decision., but Frontier shouldn't have to create a wholly separate game for those that don't pay for it.


*Enhanced Performance Thrusters are naff for combat ships.

 

[Thetele]

This is already discussed to death go find the other threads about this and read them all points, sides were brought up. No point to start that discussion again on other thread.

My personal though on it. No one can except free update or contend. What they have done with 2.1 is good. You can still play elite fine without horizon but now horizon have some actual stuff that players want. Before 2.1 the complain about horizon was that there wasn't anything new to get or to do and now we have that.

 

[Ren Garris]

I can see your points, but all that going to do is fracture things even further.

This will become cyclical when each new version comes out.
Each new version will offer more and more features.

The people stuck at the ground floor are the ones that need to make a choice.
-Will they stay there forever while the galaxy around them expands and evolves or keep current?

If they choose stagnation, then they need to accept the fact that they are locking themselves out of features or content. It will never stop the complaining about not having this or that... multcrew ships are OP with a cmdr in the turret.... <insert current gripe here>.... Such is life.

In time, I think ED will release 'older versions' of updates at a discount to try to get more people up to date.
And if ED is on a ten year plan, what are people going to do when their already outdated machine needs an overhaul to run a newer version of ED?

I for one will keep updating, but many won't or can't.

 

[Mohrgan]

The issue is, that Horizons adds so much more to the game than just Engineers. It isn't pay to win because getting upgrades isn't handed to you on a plate and the majority of NPCs don't have engineered upgrades and when they do, bar a select few bugs, they aren't overwhelming. Why should any player group be segregated from interacting with others just because one has paid for the expansion?

The other issue is that with Horizons being an expansion, it runs from the same game as 1.6. Frontier is a business and in order to develop more content for the game, it has to produce dlc. If you chose not to pay that little bit extra for the dlc that's your decision., but Frontier shouldn't have to create a wholly separate game for those that don't pay for it.


*Enhanced Performance Thrusters are naff for combat ships.

It is my understanding that practically all of the Engineered Components have been stripped from the NPC's. There was some mentions of a few, non-combat, upgrades persisting for some technical reason not well understood by me. I fly completely un-Mod'ed ships and they fair well against the NPC's. I think this should cover the bases.

Good luck out there.

 

[Ren Garris]

It is my understanding that practically all of the Engineered Components have been stripped from the NPC's. There was some mentions of a few, non-combat, upgrades persisting for some technical reason not well understood by me. I fly completely un-Mod'ed ships and they fair well against the NPC's. I think this should cover the bases.

Good luck out there.

I think modded ships are out there, just in the Engineering dept instead of the Combat Dept.

If you scan ships while in SC, you still find the anomalies in some, but not all.

But I haven't had any run ins with modded weapons since the last patch.

 

[nathdixon92]

When you start seeing Plas Macs fire like Multis, that's when you know there's a problem.

 

[Mohrgan]

When you start seeing Plas Macs fire like Multis, that's when you know there's a problem.

We did see that, so did FD. Now it's done and gone. Problem solved. Peeps even got their credits back for the losses.

 

[nathdixon92]

We did see that, so did FD. Now it's done and gone. Problem solved. Peeps even got their credits back for the losses.

I wasn't living under a rock lol. There's still the odd bug here and there but that's to be expected from a game as vast and complex as Elite.

 

[Kaocraft]

Only NPCs ranked Dangerous or higher should ever have Engineers gear, and only Elites should have a lot of it. At the same time, top tier NPCs are way too common. It's like the game does a dice roll to generate NPCs where every rank has an equal probability of appearing. High ranked NPCs should be rare and scary, like 1 in a thousand random encounters. If you're doing a high ranked assassination mission or you're in a warzone or other appropriate place, they should be more common; but overall you should have to intentionally seek out high ranked NPCs and you should almost never encounter them by pure chance.

If the distribution of engineers gear were properly weighted towards high rank NPCs, and the distribution of high rank NPC spawns were properly weighted towards extreme rarity with exceptions made for specific regions and sets of circumstances; then I think the Engineers gameplay would be well balanced for both 1.6 and 2.1.

The 1.6 players could continue to make meaningful progress in the game while still needing to be wary of risky areas and activities, and the 2.1 players could upgrade their gear to gain an edge over NPCs and other players, without feeling obligated to immediately max out everything just to reach a survivability baseline.

It would still be a "pay to win" situation in some sense, especially from the perspective of PvP, but at least we wouldn't be stuck in a situation where the game is so completely balanced around 2.1 that you almost can't play the game at all in 1.6.

 

[lysan]

To the OP's concern, NO. all players in 1.6 and onward will have the same chance as everyone else. However just as if you buy a car in the year 1970 and buy the same car in 2016 you will see that there is an evolution. Did the car factory cheat or issues a pay to be better car? nope, its called progress.

BMW 1970

Spoiler

BMW 2016

Spoiler

 

[babelfisch]

First:
Currently there are no engineered NPCs.
Second:
I agree that the currenct system is unfair. FDEV should just revoke access to the game for 1.6 players because they aren't contributing to the game.

 

[RexKraemer]

It seems that this game is already to complex for some of the players. Or maybe the discussions here are to complex to follow. Every second complain is because of missinformation.
1) already said: no engineers for the NPCs
2) there are some bugs, not more than a handfull, which will be or are already adressed
3) there is tons of information here on how to deal with the NPCs since 2.1 => NPCs are more difficult but in no way to difficult
OPs thread needed at least 20 minutes to write. Why not use these 20 minutes to check existing threads and get newest information? I am getting frustrated.

 

[CharlesD]

I play on PC and occasionally on my MacBook. I just mod my ships when I'm on the PC and they seem to have the same capabilities when I'm on my Mac, but honestly I don't see where I'm handicapped that much when playing 1.6 since that's when I normally do most of my trading or long range delivery missions.

 

[Jay8ch]

They need to allow 1.6 users access to the new weapons. You need to be able to pick them up from wrecks or something similar. No other option.

edit : or remove them from the NPC's as appears to be the plan, but that seems like a sad option.

 

[Kingtutuk]

"Second:
I agree that the currenct system is unfair. FDEV should just revoke access to the game for 1.6 players because they aren't contributing to the game." babelfisch

I don't know what to say to that except, what a load of crap...[down] babelfisch.

 

[Moonax IRL]

They need to allow 1.6 users access to the new weapons. You need to be able to pick them up from wrecks or something similar. No other option.

edit : or remove them from the NPC's as appears to be the plan, but that seems like a sad option.

No, there is an option buy the bloody expansion and if you are on Mac contact Apple, not FD fault that you bought a Mac. Also I have no modded weapons/systems and I am killing Elite NPC`s left, right and centre so man up.

Edit- Before you say it, I'm not in combat builds either, I`m in range/trade builds and I have no interest in PvP.

 

[Jay8ch]

No, there is an option buy the bloody expansion and if you are on Mac contact Apple, not FD fault that you bought a Mac. Also I have no modded weapons/systems and I am killing Elite NPC`s left, right and centre so man up.

Other games that have introduced new weapons, such as the battlefield franchise, allow people who have not purchased the upgrade to use the new weapons but not so readily. If someone bought an upgrade that gave them a better sniper rifle for instance you could kill them and use it yourself. Everyone is happy.

Oh, and this "man up" attitude pervading this forum is repugnant. I know the game is called elite, but people seem to have let that go to their heads in a big way.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

Frontier have stated many times that they will never introduce "Pay To Win" elements to this game, and I believe them.

I believe them because they're like us - first and foremost, they're gamers, and there's nothing us gamers hate more than P2W ruining an otherwise awesome game, am I right?

Well unfortunately, Frontier have done just that. They've added P2W to Elite - albeit I believe totally unknowingly and without any sinister motives. In fact I think the opposite is true - it's FDev's enthusiasm for this great game that has caused them to come a cropper here.

What am I banging on about?

NPCs. More specifically, the fact versions 1.6 AND 2.1 of Elite share the same NPCs.

NPCs in 2.1 are currently ridiculously overburdened with Engineer-specific features, because they're the new shiny and Frontier are justifiably pleased with them. But FDev's enthusiasm to include all the good stuff and showcase all that shiny led to the crazy instadeath bug we recently witnessed. So - we've been told that Engineered weapon "special effects" are being removed from NPCs, but we are also told that 'standard' modifications to all modules will remain. This means that people playing 1.6 are now facing ships with features that are only available to players of the 2.1 version - including of course the new Enhanced Performance Thrusters.

So basically by doing that, Frontier have made combat in Elite P2W. If the same player has both 1.6 and 2.1, he will ultimately fare better against NPCs with his 2.1 account because he can kit out a ship with Enhanced Performance Thrusters and Engineer mods that are simply not available to him on his 1.6 account.

But as I say, I don't believe this was a conscious thought on FDev's part. I think it's more a case of being an "Inverse-Paywall", as it were.

With a standard Paywall, content is locked away behind a paid barrier. But what's happening here is that content that should be locked away is being allowed to leak out. Players who are flying v1.6 should not be facing ships with abilities from 2.1 because 2.1 is unavailable to them.

You see the distinction?

There are three solutions to this :-

1 - make all 1.6 players buy 2.1
As desirable as that may be, it's clearly totally unacceptable because that really is P2W!

2 - create a separate, parallel galaxy for 1.6 players where the NPCs do not have 2.1 only modifications and abilities.
Not exactly what you'd call practical really, especially when we consider the whole "offline mode" debacle which essentially centred around that exact topic.

3 - remove ALL Engineer mods from NPCs
Sadly, that's the only sensible solution to prevent very valid accusations of Elite "going P2W".

It's also a logical solution, because game lore itself describes Engineers as mavericks, a shady undergound group who work behind the scenes, close knit with others of their kind, and catering to a very exclusive clientele. Unfortunately at the moment, that exclusive clientele apparently consists of the entire galaxy's NPCs...which rather makes a mockery of the whole 'rare maverick' Engineers concept really, doesn't it?

Anyway, there you go - just my thoughts.

I certainly don't suspect FDev of any wrongdoing in this matter, but it does seem to be an oversight that really must be addressed before any more negative media attention gets drawn to our beloved game! :S

Generally I am free of any concerns to that due to the life time expansion I bought during beta.
So far its all good for me but about your situation I do strongly believe that somewhen between Season 3 and season 4 all
those that are sticking to Version 1 will get ivitations price candy to squeez out Version 1 licenses (it might be free of charge
if there is enough reason for it).

Reason is quite simple as techniques improver over time and complexity to maintain Version 1 to Version 4 in same galaxy will
cause increasing problems to maintain. So if you stay patient you will get those things one day maybe free of charge or much
cheaper than others. On the other hand you cannot benefit from those things that are in the universe right now.

But all is as FD has stated it before release. You are just taking the consequences of your decision.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[Moonax IRL]

Other games that have introduced new weapons, such as the battlefield franchise, allow people who have not purchased the upgrade to use the new weapons but not so readily. If someone bought an upgrade that gave them a better sniper rifle for instance you could kill them and use it yourself. Everyone is happy.

Oh, and this "man up" attitude pervading this forum is repugnant. I know the game is called elite, but people seem to have let that go to their heads in a big way.

Stop whining about weapons, I`m using standard turreted pulses and multi`s,what's your excuse. Fit chaff, point defence and use your brain.