100 billion star systems - now what?

[Fromhell]

400 billion star systems - now what?

12675 years.

That´s the time it takes if you want to visit all of the 400 billion star systems in ED for just ONE SECOND, and you keep doing this 24/7, every day.
​

Maybe we can discuss this here for a bit, I can´t really get that number of out of my head: 400 000 000 000 star systems in ED is an insane number and I wonder what the implications on online gameplay are.

Some examples: If ED would have ten million players at some point, for each player there would still be forty thousand systems to roam around without ever meeting another player.

Is this a mind boggling size or not?

Unfortunately I don´t see this vast game world put to use yet, it´s like "well we have this unlimited universe, now what do we do with it".
So far it doesn´t seem like the world size has any impact at all, they split the playerbase, some dynamic world evolution going on - great, but wouldn´t the same thing work in a much smaller universe too? What makes the size of the universe "necessary" ?


(I don´t even want to start again on the topic why someone thought splitting the online playerbase with different rulesets in one sandbox would be necessary, when your gameworld is in fact limitless, with different regions which could have all sorts of rulesets, also with regions making anyone entering auto-moving into Allgroup etc. .)

So my actual question is: Why no territory control?
Look at Star Citizen, no territory control either at launch, not sure if that gets added in the future, but there are only 100+ star systems which would be a pain in the *** with player ruled regions. SC will never ever come close in size compared to ED, even if they add another 1000 systems over the next decade, it is still 100 million times smaller than the ED universe.

But if you look at EvE, which has 7500+ star systems, Territory control makes a lot more sense here. It works, countless player alliances are in war with each other and the universe is constantly changing, yet you can do your thing in thousands of NPC governed systems, or take part in the player war.


So, the 400 000 000 000 star systems in ED dward both EvE (7500+) and SC (100+) , but... we can´t actually throw over some local government with our player alliances in ED and become the rulers of one single star system...?
Maybe even building our own stations and star ports?

Really? Did I miss some part in the KS FAQ ?


edit: 100 billion was the number given in the KS campaign, Newsletter 9 say 400 billion. Not sure which is accurate.
Either way both numbers are impossible to ever visit in a lifetime.



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[Alien]

Why have 100 Billion star systems? Why have seamless planetary landings?

Three words you'll come across when selling any product ... Unique Selling Point
It's why people buy this product and not that one.

 

[Orbitalai]

Well most MMO is designed to last for about 5 years.
Most single player games for 1 month.

People are going to be playing this for 50 years. And new people starting in 2060 still want there to be unexplored regions to explore.

Also maybe people wont be so spread out as you think. Simply because what's the point to go 100 systems distance into unknown territory? No space stations to trade at, or repair ship at etc..

And 1 major thing. Even if there is no players nearby, does not mean there is no NPC ships.

Besides its awesome cool. Just the feeling of looking at the galaxy map and know you could in theory go across the entire thing.

I don't think 75.000.000.000 stars will be enough. Better go with 100 billions .. you know, just to be sure there is room for future expansions and increase in earths (gamer) population.

 

[el_tel]

It said 400 billion stars in Newsletter #9. I'm confused

 

[Fromhell]

Why have 100 Billion star systems? Why have seamless planetary landings?

Three words you'll come across when selling any product ... Unique Selling Point
It's why people buy this product and not that one.

the question is, which gameplay possibilities can a developer achieve with an online universe which has 100 billion star systems instead of... 100.. or 1000.

what can you do with that much "space"?
If you do exactly the same like having 1000 star systems for your players, isn´t 100 billion star systems just a waste of space?

 

[Listeri69]

It said 400 billion stars in Newsletter #9. I'm confused

with less than 1% actually inhabited and/or surveyed the potential for human expansion is fantastic. I just wonder how long this process will take is it going to be, player finds system and within a month its a fully functioning region of space with its own space station or is it going to be a case of find a system and not much happens other than a bit of mining maybe and that system closes down. it would be nice to see the frontier constantly shifting in an ever expanding circle as the 3 main rivals battle for control of the what are now EX-frontier systems....

 

[Alien]

the question is, which gameplay possibilities can a developer achieve with an online universe which has 100 billion star systems instead of... 100.. or 1000.

what can you do with that much "space"?
If you do exactly the same like having 1000 star systems for your players, isn´t 100 billion star systems just a waste of space?

Orbitalai answered your question just a few posts above:

Well most MMO is designed to last for about 5 years.
Most single player games for 1 month.

People are going to be playing this for 50 years. And new people starting in 2060 still want there to be unexplored regions to explore.

 

[Orbitalai]

It said 400 billion stars in Newsletter #9. I'm confused

This NASA link says 100 billions, and most astronomers I have heard talk about this say the same:

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/galaxy_worldbook.html

 

[Fromhell]

It said 400 billion stars in Newsletter #9. I'm confused

even more than mentioned during the KS campaign then.

Well.. an even bigger reason to justify that size with meaningful online gameplay

OP changed to corrected number

People are going to be playing this for 50 years. And new people starting in 2060 still want there to be unexplored regions to explore.

uhmm... 50 years until the next sequel? Unlikely. Don´t you think we will be running alien computers by then implanted in our brains? Not sure if ED will be compatible.

 

[The Land]

Yes, it's pretty clear that while the whole galaxy may be "in the game", the actual gameplay will occur in a very small fraction of it, at least for the first few years. So I'd agree - quite a lot of it is wasted space - good, so we can keep the scale of the game comprehensible!

We know that players will start in the small human-populated corner of the galaxy, and will be gradually able to expand that by exploration - but they will always be limited by NPCs as well (to follow up and build space stations etc so players can refuel!)

We also know from what Frontier have said that they've got no intention of players owning or building space stations, colonies, and the like, at least not at release. We'll be able to affect the development of the dynamic universe but all the big fish will be NPCs.

 

[Harbinger]

This NASA link says 100 billions, and most astronomers I have heard talk about this say the same:

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/galaxy_worldbook.html

The current estimates are between 100 Billion and 400 Billion so anything inbetween these values would be a pretty accurate representation of the Milky Way.

Either way it's too many to visit in a lifetime.

 

[Fromhell]

12675 years.

That´s the time it takes if you want to visit all of the 400 billion star systems for just ONE SECOND, and you keep doing this 24/7, every day.
​

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

100 000 000 000 star systems in ED is an insane number and I wonder what the implications on online gameplay are.

I don't think it'll have much impact in the long run. Once people get over the novelty factor I think most will realise the real fun is where other people are. People will seek other people eventually. I'm talking about those who live in the "all" grouping here - since they've specifically chosen to play in a gameworld where they can interact with others. I can see the first few weeks/months being one of massive exploration and the players thinly spread. Eventually the need for a bit more interaction will pull players back into central systems.

Unfortunately I don´t see this vast game world put to use yet, it´s like "well we have this unlimited universe, now what do we do with it".
So far it doesn´t seem like the world size has any impact at all, they split the playerbase, some dynamic world evolution going on - great, but wouldn´t the same thing work in a much smaller universe too? What makes the size of the universe "necessary" ?

I don't think its necessary from a gameplay point of view. But from a marketing point of view, and for prestige - having the largest gameword in the history of video games will win FD a lot of attention when ED is released.

(I don´t even want to start again on the topic why someone thought splitting the online playerbase with different rulesets in one sandbox would be necessary, when your gameworld is in fact limitless, with different regions which could have all sorts of rulesets, also with regions making anyone entering auto-moving into Allgroup etc. .)

I agree. It was a nonsensical decision imho. Even if ED was a hardcore PvP game - designed to be 100 times harsher than Eve Online, the sheer size of it would still make it the safest game to play for those who want to avoid all player interaction. You could feasibly go find your own part of the galaxy and never see another human soul, ever. No other online game of this type can offer you that.

So my actual question is: Why no territory control?
Look at Star Citizen, no territory control either at launch, not sure if that gets added in the future, but there are only 100+ star systems which would be a pain in the *** with player ruled regions. SC will never ever come close in size compared to ED, even if they add another 1000 systems over the next decade, it is still 100 million times smaller than the ED universe.

But if you look at EvE, which has 7500+ star systems, Territory control makes a lot more sense here. It works, countless player alliances are in war with each other and the universe is constantly changing, yet you can do your thing in thousands of NPC governed systems, or take part in the player war.

So, the 100 000 000 000 star systems in ED dward both EvE (7500+) and SC (100+) , but... we can´t actually throw over some local government with our player alliances in ED and become the rulers of one single star system...?
Maybe even building our own stations and star ports?

Really? Did I miss some part in the KS FAQ ?

I believe territory control will come eventually, along with player built and owned installations (both space based and ground based). I think you'll be able to own planets, even whole systems. Just because this stuff isn't in the first release doesn't mean it'll be excluded from distant expansions.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Michael talked about a 250LY bubble that humanity has colonised. The local star density is around 0.004 stars per cubic LY, which means that if 250LY is the radius of the bubble, then there are around 32,725 systems in the inhabited zone. As for the rest of it being 'wasted', it's not like they're putting in immense effort for the 99 billion unused stars. They come virtually free once the procedural generation formulae have been worked for the local area.

Personally I don't like the territory control idea, just because it's not the game I want to play. Players brick-walling content that I paid for doesn't sit well with me. If Elite was less about missions and building rep with factions, it might work, but then I'd be a lot less interested in the game.

 

[The Land]

Bear in mind that it might not be properly cubic - Frontier and FFE were "flattened" so the player didn't have to think too much in 3d (which is after all a bit of a head-screw) - that might bring the number of systems down a bit.

Generally agree that player-owned stations, systems and the like don't really fit with the ethos of the Elite galaxy. Yes, there might be great factions controlling the lives of millions of NPCs, but the player is never powerful enough to match the power of the NPC factions. Elite commanders are loners - they might do amazing things but they will never be corporate chieftains, imperial nobles or elected officials.....

 

[[VR] Shadowman]

Perhaps an important point is that previous Elite games simulated the galaxy also. If FD released E: D with only a subset (considering the technology improvements since then), I think a lot of people would be asking why is E: D going "backwards" in that respect. It was one of the huge selling points after all.

I'm really glad we're getting the whole galaxy. I'll no doubt get bored of people after a while and go and find a pulsar or something.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Bear in mind that it might not be properly cubic - Frontier and FFE were "flattened" so the player didn't have to think too much in 3d (which is after all a bit of a head-screw) - that might bring the number of systems down a bit.

It's been confirmed that the universe is being unflattened, and will be the proper 6LY at it's thickest point.

 

[Fromhell]

I don't think its necessary from a gameplay point of view. But from a marketing point of view, and for prestige - having the largest gameword in the history of video games will win FD a lot of attention when ED is released.

I strongly disagree here, and I can give you a reason- watch this on Youtube:

The Reset Button - biggest game worlds

The part about the game "FUEL" gets interesting.
It had the biggest ground based game world ever, procedurally generated - yet it failed, bad rating, bad sales -- there simply was nothing meaningful to do, there was no sense in racing endless worlds, they could have scaled that game down to 1/1000th of the size with the same result. It was basically a tech demo but no real reason for a world size like this.

-> No reason for the size, no meaningful gameplay -> fail design, although a great technical achievement

I agree. It was a nonsensical decision imho. Even if ED was a hardcore PvP game - designed to be 100 times harsher than Eve Online, the sheer size of it would still make it the safest game to play for those who want to avoid all player interaction. You could feasibly go find your own part of the galaxy and never see another human soul, ever. No other online game of this type can offer you that.

that´s the point. A narrow minded decision imho, but let´s leave it at that.

I believe territory control will come eventually, along with player built and owned installations (both space based and ground based). I think you'll be able to own planets, even whole systems. Just because this stuff isn't in the first release doesn't mean it'll be excluded from distant expansions.

I hope so! Although I´d bet that even the sheer number of systems won´t keep some people from argueing against that possibility for sure.

 

[Fromhell]

Players brick-walling content that I paid for doesn't sit well with me.

12 675 years. You will be long gone before you have seen everything "you paid for".

 

[Cody]

Squirrels!