2.4 Typical weaponry will be useless against Thargoids. Another design flaw?

fus roh potato

fus roh potato
Watching over the teaser live stream, some pictures were shown of unknown devices coming in 2.4. Some of them seem to look like deployables rather than weapons and it prompts me with some concerning questions:

Is the 2.4 going to continue the trend of splitting game content? Will it make it easier for PvPers to attack ships equipped for fighting Thargoids? Will it force players to drop every other form of progression purely for the sake of some kind of Thargoid module progress? Deployables sound a bit more interesting because it allows a ship to maintain its previously engineered configuration, but I think it would be a shame if all that work put into engineering them could not be used at all in any way. My hope would be that these deployables put a debuff on the alien ships making engineered weapons useful, and that this update will create new relationships with other mechanics that we already have.

It's often said that this game is a mile wide and inch deep. A major contributor towards this was making progression systems feel like a grind. One way of achieving that was the practice of isolating activities and mechanics from each other so that only one at a time can be played with. Some examples:
  • Waiting hours for that one particular kind of signal source when no other form of gameplay fits between, other than maybe courier missions which aren't really activities anyways.
  • Grinding for 10k merits for a week to get a 100% bounty bonus for another week, when 2 weeks of bounties without a bonus pay the same. Neither of which contribute towards super faction rep gain.
  • Waiting 4 weeks to earn a new weapon, one that's only given through Powerplay. Why?
  • PvP only being for the sake of PvP.
  • Manual trading, combat zones and mining not providing contribution towards any significant rank gain, engineering progress, and are not profitable without missions that don't add anything extra to the task itself.

I could probably make a fat list on that subject but that isn't the point. It sounds like Frontier is showing interest with revisiting core mechanics after 2.4, but I want to know if they've considered previous design flaws and taken measure to ensure 2.4 makes the game less wide and more deep. I think this is something they should be thinking about with every update they plan in the future.

Live stream reference.
[video]https://www.twitch.tv/videos/154072893?t=07m57s[/video]
 

S3B4ST13N

S
2.4 Typical weaponry will be useless against Thargoids. Another design flaw?


Or perhaps intentional to instil fear, dread? A sense of uselessness against an overpowering force? Thargoids have always been more advanced than humans.

Like Jaffz said, it's not out yet. Rather wait and see what they have planned. Speculation doesn't help anyone; and has a bad habit of turning into a game of broken telephone that ends with Frontier -unfairly- getting the short end of the stick.
 
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Lucius-Darcia

Lucius-Darcia
CMDR S. Russell said:
2.4 Typical weaponry will be useless against Thargoids. Another design flaw?


Or perhaps intentional to instil fear, dread? A sense of uselessness against an overpowering force? Thargoids have always been more advanced that humans.

Like Jaffz said, it's not out yet. Rather wait and see what they have planned. Speculation doesn't help anyone; and has a bad habit of turning into a game of broken telephone that ends with Frontier -unfairly- getting the short end of the stick.
Click to expand...

Well said cmdr ;)
I'm just excited to see some new mechanics and some difference to what we know already. The Thargoids SHOULD be a different sort of gameplay that we used to know.
I'm sure that there will be a Beta first as usual and i will keep everything i think behind until i've played at least the Beta :)
 

Darth Ender

D
You dont have to make weapons ineffective to make thargoids overwhelming.

For instance, thargoids could utilize swarms. Ships would be overwhelming simply from overwhelming numbers ... you could kill a ship here and there but it wouldn't matter.

Thargoids could also simply fly better and have stronger weapons. You could get a shot out or many and do some damage, but they'll do more damage and hit more often, overwhelming even the best pilots more often than not.


It's lazy programming to simply make them not take damage.
 

DaMorgs

DaMorgs
I'm hoping the Thargoids will be the 'Oh Crap' moment in this game. I want to be hopelessly out gunned even in my best ship. I want to be terrified of these things. Maybe at a level where you could. perhaps, if you're kitted out well enough, go up against one of their smaller ships in our big 3, the Cutter, Corvette and Anaconda. But even then come away hurting.
 

Marc_Hicks

Marc_Hicks
Oh look, its another one of the drama queens who were probably responsible for the nerfing of the AI post 2.1.....'cause the NPC's were suddenly effective at shooting back. You saw "Dangerous" in the title.....didn't you?
 

S3B4ST13N

S
Darth Ender said:
You dont have to make weapons ineffective to make thargoids overwhelming.

For instance, thargoids could utilize swarms. Ships would be overwhelming simply from overwhelming numbers ... you could kill a ship here and there but it wouldn't matter.

Thargoids could also simply fly better and have stronger weapons. You could get a shot out or many and do some damage, but they'll do more damage and hit more often, overwhelming even the best pilots more often than not.
Click to expand...
There are lots of routes they could take; but the fact of the matter is that Thargoid technology is superior to humans.
In fact, the sheer power and brutality of Thargoid encounters in the original Elite, as well as various other hints throughout the game, fueled speculated that Thargoid technology was not just superior, but significantly more advanced than ours. Ability to hover in witchspace, multi-axis symmetry on their ships, and apparently inertialess drive technology ( they had no visible form of propulsion ) to name but a few.
To add a little fuel to the fire; there was speculation that ECM technology, as well as various other technologies were actually reverse-engineered from Thargoid tech.

It therefore stands to reason we might not be able to damage them; however, that doesn't mean Frontier can't run a CG or something that requires players to, for example, attack a Thargoid stronghold to obtain technology and scan data; with the results of that data being weapons, shields, ship designs, hull improvements, galaxy map "discoveries" and so forth.

Darth Ender said:
It's lazy programming to simply make them not take damage.
Click to expand...
To accuse Frontier of being lazy programmers when you don't have a cooking clue as to why we can't harm the ships, or what Frontier have planned for us with their return.. it's just uncalled for, and disrespectful.
 
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khaos526

khaos526
Well I don't know, I think just equipping a giant can of bug spray to your ship would solve the issue. That way you get to keep all your normal weapon slots...
 

Marc_Hicks

Marc_Hicks
Darth Ender said:
You dont have to make weapons ineffective to make thargoids overwhelming.

For instance, thargoids could utilize swarms. Ships would be overwhelming simply from overwhelming numbers ... you could kill a ship here and there but it wouldn't matter.

Thargoids could also simply fly better and have stronger weapons. You could get a shot out or many and do some damage, but they'll do more damage and hit more often, overwhelming even the best pilots more often than not.


It's lazy programming to simply make them not take damage.
Click to expand...


.....and where did they say they will make them not take damage? Ineffective doesn't mean "not take damage".....that word would be Impervious. Maybe they fly so erratically that getting a fix on them will be extremely difficult, maybe they have some kind of "stealth" technology that makes it so you have to be closer in to get a target lock, maybe their shields & armour can take more punishment than human ships of the same size. Maybe their own weapons & counter-measures will make it near impossible for us to get off more than a few shots. Any one or combination of these factors will make our weapons & tactics ineffective-without making their ships impervious.
 

Marc_Hicks

Marc_Hicks
Fear not though, whiners, I'm sure that after a month of your moaniny & complaining, FDev will buckle once again & make Thargoids no harder to kill than a Competent NPC.
 

Tarman

Tarman
I tried to check out some of this new content, but my temporal discriminator's all out of whack in my Type40 and I had to fight dinosaurs to get away. Guess I'll just have to wait for actual details.
 

TheSisko

TheSisko
When Cavemen wanted to beat the hell out each other, they used the tech available - rocks and sticks. And very effective that tech was, for killing other cavemen.

If advanced aliens landed in middle of a Caveman fight, I'd expect those rocks and sticks to be ineffective against them.

Compared to Thargoids, we're the Cavemen, with weapons to match.

Its up to us to make better rocks and sticks. That won't happen overnight.
 

fus roh potato

fus roh potato
Marc_Hicks said:
Fear not though, whiners, I'm sure that after a month of your moaniny & complaining, FDev will buckle once again & make Thargoids no harder to kill than a Competent NPC.
Click to expand...

Another major contributor to the whole mile wide inch deep saying is the overall lack of challenge this game provides in PvE. I've often called for more challenging missions and activities, argued against the NPC nerfs, and protested the changes made to smuggling as well.

Sounds to me like you're reading too far into this with a very disrespectful attitude. I'm also absolutely baffled how anyone could hold such a position after reading this:

Darth Ender said:
You dont have to make weapons ineffective to make thargoids overwhelming.

For instance, thargoids could utilize swarms. Ships would be overwhelming simply from overwhelming numbers ... you could kill a ship here and there but it wouldn't matter.

Thargoids could also simply fly better and have stronger weapons. You could get a shot out or many and do some damage, but they'll do more damage and hit more often, overwhelming even the best pilots more often than not.


It's lazy programming to simply make them not take damage.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how I see it.
 
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Leadfoot

Leadfoot
Ok, here goes:

Right now, event done in a script. You watch, they do, they leave, you wonder.
At barnacles if you're far enough away, deploy weapons, shoot at ship, nothing happens.
Why? Scripted event.

EVENTUALLY, as 2.4 draws closer, either Ram Ta or Pailin will start a CG for data or materials to devise a way for us to (1) not go dead when they arrive and (2) be able to shoot back effectively. When you see that CG end, 2.4 will be right on your doorstep because as soon as either one of them comes up with a way to actually interact/shoot back at these ships, THEN they'll show up and we'll be able to shoot them (or not, depending on whether you have an option to be peaceful with them or not).

I suspect that once the method to resist their nullification of our power is made available to all ships in the game (no matter where they are in the galaxy via handwavium), THEN things will hit the fan.
 
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