Ships 4 factions - 2 faction have ships?

[Smellfire]

Why haven't Alliance and Independents got a ship line or even just a ship?

Seems to leave a big hole in the these two factions ship trees, and unless you want to grind ranks with a faction you are probably at war or at least hostile towards, seems a bit daft.

Is there a specific reason or story behind why?

 

[Serapo]

Good question. Currently the game pushes players to either grind rank for the Feds or the Empire. No ship reward for Alliance or Independents (well we could leave Independents out, since they are "independent" and not an organized faction).

So in the long run and if player actions actually have a meaningful impact on the Elite universe (which unfortunately does not really seem to be the case), the Alliance would be at a serious disadvantage because much less players would be grinding in support of them.

So yes, Alliance needs some unique ships. Even if it is the Badass-Miner or the amazing Trader faction specced rig, it would still move lots of players to seriously support the Alliance.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

ship trees

I'm not particularly bothered by anything as much as I'm bothered with this single phrase, as a motif for the entire post.

Why must everything get devolved into some sort of progression? Why must every direction have a definable start and end?

I'm okay with some ships being more powerful than others. I'm okay with some factions being better equipped than others. I'm okay with some things being different than others because all is not balanced an equal in the galaxy and this is okay.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Why haven't Alliance and Independents got a ship line or even just a ship?

Seems to leave a big hole in the these two factions ship trees, and unless you want to grind ranks with a faction you are probably at war or at least hostile towards, seems a bit daft.

Is there a specific reason or story behind why?

Lore reasons: The Alliance isn't a big army. They are a band of independent systems that grouped together for defence. They use numbers instead of advanced ships to defend themselves against attack.
Independent systems are just that, colonies that don't have resources or allegiances to manufacture their own stuff. Look at a real life example of the Aerospace industry. There are only 5 or 6 countries that build and design new attack jets but other smaller countries buy jets in.

Alliance could muster the resources to maybe create a new ships variant but why would they spend a few hundred billion credits on a new design when they can buy 10 Asp's and a ton of Eagles/vipers instead. Combine that with systems entering and leaving the alliance as it suits them and all the politics of the different systems clashing, it'd be like trying to get a joint commitment out of the United Nations, someone will always veto

 

[Defacto]

Lore reasons: The Alliance isn't a big army. They are a band of independent systems that grouped together for defence. They use numbers instead of advanced ships to defend themselves against attack.
Independent systems are just that, colonies that don't have resources or allegiances to manufacture their own stuff. Look at a real life example of the Aerospace industry. There are only 5 or 6 countries that build and design new attack jets but other smaller countries buy jets in.

Alliance could muster the resources to maybe create a new ships variant but why would they spend a few hundred billion credits on a new design when they can buy 10 Asp's and a ton of Eagles/vipers instead. Combine that with systems entering and leaving the alliance as it suits them and all the politics of the different systems clashing, it'd be like trying to get a joint commitment out of the United Nations, someone will always veto

Lore counteragument: The Alliance does have their own ship manufacturers and ships, including naval ships. This is well documented in both lore, previous games, and design documents for this game.
Also, there's lots of real life examples of small nations producing their own military vehicles.

I hope that we'll see alliance ships in the future. I would especially be interested to see how the Saker III is remade in ED.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Lore counteragument: The Alliance does have their own ship manufacturers and ships, including naval ships. This is well documented in both lore, previous games, and design documents for this game.
Also, there's lots of real life examples of small nations producing their own military vehicles.

I hope that we'll see alliance ships in the future. I would especially be interested to see how the Saker III is remade in ED.

Just to clarify I also wish to see an Alliance ship or two being implemented, Im just sceptical of it happening or not. Devs have always said they'd consider it but I'd have expected more teasing pictures and announcements if they'd got something for 1.5 update.
Edit: Also I've only been keeping up with more recent lore, can't say I played the earlier games being fairly young and all

Side-topic on the real life aspect:

Spoiler

Sure some vehicles can be made but name a single combat fighter not made by US/Europe/Russia recently. I'm thinking names like Rafale (French), Raptor (US), Sukhoi PAK FA (Rus), Superhornet (US), Mirage (French), Typhoon (EU) and Flanker (Rus).
The only real new player in the high end combat jet market since WW2 is China with its Chengdu series of jets.

The only real joint effort between many smaller nations is the Eurofighter Typhoon. It's actually an example of how messy a co-operative multi-billion £ project can get (i.e. Design arguments, France withdrawal, delays, Order reductions etc). Basically came in wayyy overbudget and way too late, in the end it was only really saved by the other nations determination.

Edit: Just looked through some of my old notes from uni and there was a joint attempt by S-Korea and Indonesia to create the KAI KF-X but as far as I know thats faced over 10 years of issues and still isn't in production.
Looking at this list though the Typhoon is the only aircraft that was a joint effort of more than 2 nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fighter_aircraft

 

[Defacto]

Just to clarify I also wish to see an Alliance ship or two being implemented, Im just sceptical of it happening or not. Devs have always said they'd consider it but I'd have expected more teasing pictures and announcements if they'd got something for 1.5 update.
Edit: Also I've only been keeping up with more recent lore, can't say I played the earlier games being fairly young and all

Side-topic on the real life aspect:

Spoiler

Sure some vehicles can be made but name a single combat fighter not made by US/Europe/Russia recently. I'm thinking names like Rafale (French), Raptor (US), Sukhoi PAK FA (Rus), Superhornet (US), Mirage (French), Typhoon (EU) and Flanker (Rus).
The only real new player in the high end combat jet market since WW2 is China with its Chengdu series of jets.

The only real joint effort between many smaller nations is the Eurofighter Typhoon. It's actually an example of how messy a co-operative multi-billion £ project can get (i.e. Design arguments, France withdrawal, delays, Order reductions etc). Basically came in wayyy overbudget and way too late, in the end it was only really saved by the other nations determination.

Yes, it doesn't look like alliance ships are on the way currently, unfortunately.

As I understand it, Alliance ships are not the result of a cooperative project, such as the Eurofighter, but more as a product of a company being employed by the state, such as SAAB producing Swedish fighter aircraft, or Core Dynamics proudcing federal craft in ED.

It's not rare for the larger corporations (in ED) to have millions or even billions of employees. In some cases, corporations can own entire systems. The Alioth system itself has a larger population (and most likely a larger industrial base) than the entirety of humanity today. The planet of New Rossyth, one of Alioth's habitable planets, is pretty much entirely focused on shipbuilding industry. At the same time, there are combat capable spacecraft that can be afforded by private persons. How many bounty-hunters flying Eurofighters do we have today? It might be a bit problematic to draw straight comparisons between fighter aircraft today and naval ships in ED.
Finally, Alliance ships would bring some much-needed variation to the Alliance. I'm pretty sure that the only thing unique with the alliance currently is that you, unlike in the other two major factions, can not earn ranks in their navy.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Yes, it doesn't look like alliance ships are on the way currently, unfortunately.

As I understand it, Alliance ships are not the result of a cooperative project, such as the Eurofighter, but more as a product of a company being employed by the state, such as SAAB producing Swedish fighter aircraft, or Core Dynamics proudcing federal craft in ED.

It's not rare for the larger corporations (in ED) to have millions or even billions of employees. In some cases, corporations can own entire systems. The Alioth system itself has a larger population (and most likely a larger industrial base) than the entirety of humanity today. The planet of New Rossyth, one of Alioth's habitable planets, is pretty much entirely focused on shipbuilding industry. At the same time, there are combat capable spacecraft that can be afforded by private persons. How many bounty-hunters flying Eurofighters do we have today? It might be a bit problematic to draw straight comparisons between fighter aircraft today and naval ships in ED.
Finally, Alliance ships would bring some much-needed variation to the Alliance. I'm pretty sure that the only thing unique with the alliance currently is that you, unlike in the other two major factions, can not earn ranks in their navy.

Seems like a sound arguement, I concede. That last post was really just me being devils advocate anyway
I'd personally like a lot more definition between the faction navies and better combat zone activity rather than endless warfare until the % progress bar ticks over to stability or revolution. I floated the idea of wave based combat on another thread with ships gathering at checkpoints in formation to jump into the combat area every 10 minutes or so before fighting 20 minutes then retreating. Players could wing-jump in with the fleet if they are positioned in the same direction and at 0 throttle or something, im sure it could be coded somehow

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

Lore counteragument: The Alliance does have their own ship manufacturers and ships, including naval ships. This is well documented in both lore, previous games, and design documents for this game.
Also, there's lots of real life examples of small nations producing their own military vehicles.

I hope that we'll see alliance ships in the future. I would especially be interested to see how the Saker III is remade in ED.

Those are precisely the reasons why I cannot understand how the Alliance does not have their own united military (incl. missions and rank progression) and their very own ship manufacturer and line of ships already.

 

[newman1702]

There are 3 major factions, not 4. Independents aren't one big faction, but rather a common name for the many small independent factions present in the game - and each of those getting their ships would be impractical; there are already non-faction ships which any independent port can sell.

As for Alliance ships, lore kind of explains it, but then again there's nothing in the lore against Alliance members pooling resources to start designing and building their own ships - I'd certainly like to see that some day.

Those are precisely the reasons why I cannot understand how the Alliance does not have their own united military (incl. missions and rank progression) and their very own ship manufacturer and line of ships already.

I always saw the Alliance as a work in progress rather than a fully fleshed out faction, just put in there and awaiting some dev love. Hope I'm right, as in it's current state the Alliance doesn't serve much of a purpose.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

Just to clarify I also wish to see an Alliance ship or two being implemented, Im just sceptical of it happening or not. Devs have always said they'd consider it but I'd have expected more teasing pictures and announcements if they'd got something for 1.5 update.
Edit: Also I've only been keeping up with more recent lore, can't say I played the earlier games being fairly young and all

The Alliance was featured in "Frontier: First Encounters" as a new faction that had recently emerged from a war of independence in some systems that were formerly a frontline between the Empire and the Federation. Basically the founders of the Alliance formed an independent strike fleet and managed to kick out both warring factions from their system Alioth, then spread influence to the adjacent systems, forming common defence contracts and trade agreements and such.

One prominent ship designer named Mic Turner defected from the Empire and set up shop in the new Alliance capital, based in the Rossyth shipyards.

He was responsible for ship designs such as:


The Saker MK III Fighter


The Skeet cruiser

The Wyvern Explorer


The Mantis Transport

And the Griffin Carrier

And the "Turner's Quest", the iconic ship from the First Encounters Intro.

So yes, the Alliance should have their own line of ships. It had one before. Heck, they even had their own space port designs:

Dublin Citadel (original game)

Dublin Citadel (FFE3D mod)

So yes... a little more love for the Alliance as a true major faction couldn't hurt.

 

[Poseidal]

Independent aren't a faction.

Alliance need a design aesthetic down before we start seeing them, but I'm up for Alliance ships to be put in once that's down. Don't be disappointed when they look somewhat Imperial, knowing their origins and descriptions in the novels though.

 

[PhoenicianSon]

Independent aren't a faction.

Alliance need a design aesthetic down before we start seeing them, but I'm up for Alliance ships to be put in once that's down. Don't be disappointed when they look somewhat Imperial, knowing their origins and descriptions in the novels though.

I was just going to say the same thing... Independents are not a collective similarly to the three major factions, but rather a collection of completely independent factions. Some may have a presence in more than one system, but they are not large enough to create their own ship lines. However, Alliance on the other hand may be a good candidate if the lore supports its capability to create ships.

EDIT 4:45pm
+1 rep to you.. and I would call "jinx", but you posted first

 

[Nerdicus]

I always thought of the Alliance as more of an upstart, limited organization, that would find a way to utilize what is already out there, but modified to fit their needs. Take the colonial US Navy (Continental Navy), as almost all of it's earliest warships were converted Merchantmen, or were warships captured by privateers. I'm thinking along the lines of a Scout/Explorer frame converted into more of a combat role. The same could be said for any of the openly available ships in-game (type 9 converted cruiser).

Speaking of Privateers, I could also see the Alliance Naval Ranks following a similar path, as it would be difficult for such a diverse group to establish enough of a common following to support a defined navy. However, an overall admiralty (higher ranks) supported by a group of Privateers (whose initial loyalty must be proven) is a ranking system that has worked many times over the centuries.

 

[Smellfire]

Independent aren't a faction.

Alliance need a design aesthetic down before we start seeing them, but I'm up for Alliance ships to be put in once that's down. Don't be disappointed when they look somewhat Imperial, knowing their origins and descriptions in the novels though.

If Independents weren't a faction, they wouldn't be a join-able faction powers and have influence over the game.

I don't see why they can't have there own ships, they have the population, High Tech industry, and monetary income to have a design shipyard. They needn't be bespoke, or necessarily fighting ships but could be adaptations of existing ships to fill their own niche.

You wouldn't think a small nation like Sweden could build a first rate fighter aircraft with a population of only 9 million, but they built the JAS Gripen with some support/partnership agreements. Another example would be Israels adaptation of foreign equipment from the 1948+.

Small doesn't mean powerless or technologically inept.

 

[Janichsan]

If Independents weren't a faction, they wouldn't be a join-able faction powers and have influence over the game.

They aren't "joinable". You become independent by leaving not one, but all of the other factions, which is the exact opposite of joining a faction. Not being part of any faction is the defining quality of the Independents.

 

[Iskariot]

Why haven't Alliance and Independents got a ship line or even just a ship?

Seems to leave a big hole in the these two factions ship trees, and unless you want to grind ranks with a faction you are probably at war or at least hostile towards, seems a bit daft.

Is there a specific reason or story behind why?

Independents are not organized. For me it stands to reason they would just buy ships from existing corporations.
I am not sure but it might even be the case that one the of the ship manufacturers has it's HQ in independent space.

The Alliance is made up out of independents that do work together.
Personally I would like to see a few original Alliance ships.
All in the name of diversity.
That is why I would like to see some true Imperial station designs too.
It would be awesome to enter an Imperial system and get a true Imperial atmosphere because of some shiny white stations with organic Gutamaya lines.

 

[Flavio]

Alliance should have a range of ships while the independents that are large enough should have variants that have been improved upon in a specific area for instance a mining system may buy in ships and modify them to have a stronger hull and extra mining lasers while a high tech independent may modify their ships to have an extra module carrying ability etc but these variants can only be had if you reach a certain level of reputation with that independent system.

 

[Vasious]

If Independents weren't a faction, they wouldn't be a join-able faction powers and have influence over the game.

I don't see why they can't have there own ships, they have the population, High Tech industry, and monetary income to have a design shipyard. They needn't be bespoke, or necessarily fighting ships but could be adaptations of existing ships to fill their own niche.

You wouldn't think a small nation like Sweden could build a first rate fighter aircraft with a population of only 9 million, but they built the JAS Gripen with some support/partnership agreements. Another example would be Israels adaptation of foreign equipment from the 1948+.

Small doesn't mean powerless or technologically inept.

You mean the three Independent Powers - Sirius Giv, Kamo Crew and Utopia

When people say the independents are not a faction they are referring to the hundred thousand or so non aligned systems that are not part of the Alliance, Federation or Empire, each being a distinct independent entity

No Power has a unique ship
There are Federal and Imperial Powers, but aligning to them does not grant access to the Rank Restricted Ships

 

[Psycho Romeo]

If Independents weren't a faction, they wouldn't be a join-able faction powers and have influence over the game.

I believe you misunderstand. "Independents" aren't a faction, as the quoted said. The kumo crew may be a (sub)faction, the europa people may be a (sub)faction, but there is no (major) faction called 'independents' along side other mentioned (major) factions such as alliance, federation, and empire.