Elite's narrative (again, sorry)

Hello!

I'm raising this topic again because it's quite a few months until Odyssey, and the subject of storytelling in Elite Dangerous keeps popping up when I chat to players.

Title says it all really. After Kai Zen’s heartfelt plea a few months ago to reintroduce narrative to Elite Dangerous, I’ve been thinking about what that might actually mean. We’ve seen several flavours of narrative in Elite over the years, some of which have pleased certain types of player over others. Now of course we have zero narrative - FD have totally withdrawn any kind of narrative drive from the game at all, whether it be CGs, Galnet, Interstellar Initiatives, Engineers’ one-off missions, or major narrative updates. In the absence of any sort of narrative it’s easy to cry “we need narrative! The game needs story!” But what would we actually want that to look like?

There are several different ways that FD have told stories in and about the game over the years. One of which is official novels; two of the official novel authors have indicated in the last few months that their vision for better narrative in Elite is to grant more licenses for third-parties again. While these are great reads, they’re not actually the same as narrative within the game (though they can undeniably play an important role in giving a setting heft).

Another suggestion I’ve seen several times is for Frontier to either incorporate player-made narrative into the game, either through ‘officialising’ player-run news sources like Sagittarius Eye or developing something like an in-cockpit browser window through which players can navigate to those third-party sites.

As a longtime lead editor for Sagittarius Eye, I actually don’t think this is desirable. For one, our team are all grown-ups with busy lives and jobs. While undoubtedly ultranerds, we actually wouldn’t want to do Frontier’s job for them. The content we create is designed to complement the in-game narrative, not replace it.

Furthermore, I actually don’t think this option would satisfy players. How different would it be, really, to access Inara or Sag Eye through an awkward in-cockpit browser versus just pulling it up on your iPad or second monitor? Also, narrative has to be developed closely with game design in order to be satisfying, and farming it out to players will never accomplish that.

Elite Dangerous occupies a funny, ill-defined niche amongst video games. Eve Online’s ‘story’ is nearly totally driven by player action, barely umpired by CCP, as that game is a PvP sandbox. No Man’s Sky, by contrast, is a single-player journey with opt-in multiplayer elements. It’s a single-player experience you can share, and the narrative is therefore mostly developer-led, and does include some elements of princess-rescuing (to borrow David Braben’s memorable analogy). Elite is something different, and arguably in-between.

One type of storytelling we’ve seen in Elite is the ‘fluff’ pieces in Galnet: story arcs that fleshed out the universe, but didn’t impact on the player experience in any other way. It is common to lament the loss of these (and it’s easy to do when all narrative has been scrapped) but I actually agree with the devs that these were a poor use of FD’s time. I enjoyed reading them, but they were no substitute for stories which could actually impact me as a player.

For me, there are two styles of storytelling which Elite Dangerous has done well. The first is a deft handling of player agency, which saw FD recognise what players were doing in their sandbox and put narrative beats around it. We saw this with the Lugh conflict, Colonia, and Emperor’s Dawn; all were cracking examples of Frontier seeing what players were actually doing in their game and plotting the story accordingly.

This type of storytelling is a bit like the role of a gamesmaster in a tabletop roleplaying game: not simply telling a story, but accommodating, recognising, and encouraging what your players do, and providing the next narrative steps for that. I think of this as ‘reactive’ storytelling. The players are in charge (or at least feel as though they are) and Frontier’s role is to facilitate. The Premonition event of 3303 is perhaps an example of this, but to my mind that event (fatally) relied a bit too heavily on the actions of a few individual players.

The second type of storytelling I’ve really enjoyed in Elite was the Interstellar Initiatives. While these got off to a rocky start (and I disagreed with the decision to signpost each stage of all of them here on the Forum) by the end of 2019 they were leading into each other pleasingly, gave players a bit of choice from time to time, and gave the impression that this was a living, breathing galaxy that was going somewhere. Every time I logged in I could read the latest developments about events I knew I would have a stake in.

So, over to you I guess. What kind of narrative do you actually want? More third-party novels? More fluff pieces? For Frontier to act as dungeonmaster? For fan-made stuff to be available in game? Scripted campaigns? Carefully-planned arcs with individual, choreographed moments of player choice? Don’t just say “all of them” - resources are finite, and Frontier might find it useful to see what type of narrative their players prioritise.

Thank you!
 
I dont like the new GalNot, preferred the old version fluff 'n all, but add some fluff in game. If the Alliance is having a festival, advertise it on the station ad boards and have a few ships celebrating is all.

I prefer the hidden lore but its hard to keep coming up with that kind of stuff I know, but yeah, more of this kind of stuff. I like long term stuff that unravels not things that happen in a weekend.

The Tionisla Graveyard.
 
This forum post needs to blow up huge. The thing I like about it is that it isn't really taking a side on how the story should be handled but rather asking the assembled commanders who go on the forums what THEY think should be a way to look at story going forward. I really hope that a ton of people post on this thread with their ideas and opinions and I really hope that Frontier take these various viewpoints to heart as they look to how to implement Lore and Narrative going forward. Whenever they decide to do so. Their public statements on the matter is that the team handling all this has been pulled into generating FC and Odyssey content. Well, one is out and one is coming so this discussion is quite timely as now is the time for decisions to be made on how they make a plan to approach this subject going forward. Well written and thoughtful!

And for my two cents input... While I enjoy the fluff for flavor and enjoy the community reporting for the same reason... I would love for a well crafted story line be given to us in the style of the GM telling us a crafted story with little blips of feedback being taken on board from player actions. For sure going to cover this thread on tonight's show!

I urge everyone reading this to pass the link to friends and discords and facebook groups and tweet it. Let's get this thread rocking and see the multitude of ideas and opinions people have on this matter.
 
Id like a scripted campaign. Totally games proved you can do this in ship very well back in the 90's. They could even develop it over time and sell it as dlc etc... pacing might work well if the campaign could be used to set the theme for sandbox play in the months between episodes.. would be awesome.
 
This type of storytelling is a bit like the role of a gamesmaster in a tabletop roleplaying game: not simply telling a story, but accommodating, recognising, and encouraging what your players do, and providing the next narrative steps for that. I think of this as ‘reactive’ storytelling. The players are in charge (or at least feel as though they are) and Frontier’s role is to facilitate. The Premonition event of 3303 is perhaps an example of this, but to my mind that event (fatally) relied a bit too heavily on the actions of a few individual players.

This. Take the lessons learnt from the Premonition event, scale it wider over a greater time interval, with more player input, more arcs, more characters, a blend of lore, personalities, locations and overlapping stories providing missions, quests, exploration, combat, trade mixed in with some political shenanigans. It would be glorious.

Cheers,

Drew.
 
This. Take the lessons learnt from the Premonition event, scale it wider over a greater time interval, with more player input, more arcs, more characters, a blend of lore, personalities, locations and overlapping stories providing missions, quests, exploration, combat, trade mixed in with some political shenanigans. It would be glorious.

Cheers,

Drew.

What happened to the emperor Drew?! It's difficult to tell on my phone, but I think you have turned into John Cleese, in which case I thoroughly endorse your cheeky change! ;)
 
the "story" in game should be two pronged. Micro and Macro story could be placed in game -- supported by Galnet reporting on it...

Micro level could be done by providing more interesting random contacts with follow-on missions that lead individule players into little mysteries; let them solve local crimes. They could be little puzzles with mysteries to solve and introduce recurring local characters. Rewards in ongoing monetary and in longer lasting reputation with local factions.. maybe something that was more ongoing or longer lasting than typical missions could be given for completing and solving (and make them random in location and methods to solve so players don't find out about them and EVERYONE goes there to do it at that location).

Then dynamically report some of these in Galnet posts... (automated, triggered by players completing)... mention the cmdr and the npc character names involved. just a short story like "CMDR Soandso assisted authorities in Thisandthat system but uncovering a smuggling ring." or "CMDR Baddude promoted the cause of rebels in Yaddayadda system against the oppressive system leader Count Badguy by supporting privateering actions against corporate megaships."

Then on the MACRO level have Galnet announce larger political and social needs that could take the form of the old Interstellar Initiatives, or maybe tie to major characters like the powerplay characters who should be better characterized and take on more active roles in story telling. Bring in warnings of scattered thargoid attacks and make them actually be in said locaitons or nearby for more mystery and player actions to search out. Make player actions (as a whole - over a week or so) actually CHANGE things... change who is in power (BGS, powerplay, thargoids) in sectors ... start reveling clues again to The Club, The Dark Wheel, INRA, Raxxla - promote your existing rich lore Fdev!
 
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Id like a scripted campaign. Totally games proved you can do this in ship very well back in the 90's. They could even develop it over time and sell it as dlc etc... pacing might work well if the campaign could be used to set the theme for sandbox play in the months between episodes.. would be awesome.
Interesting! I actually wouldn't want this - it's a typical MMO thing which I don't think suits Elite particularly. Interestingly, it's pretty much exactly what CIG are planning with Squadron 42 for Star Citizen: a scripted, linear story which acts as a tutorial and introduction to the live game.

It definitely has advantages. It's not something I personally would like to see, but there are definitely good points to it.
 
Then dynamically report some of these in Galnet posts... (automated, triggered by players completing)... mention the cmdr and the npc character names involved. just a short story like "CMDR Soandso assisted authorities in Thisandthat system but uncovering a smuggling ring." or "CMDR Baddude promoted the cause of rebels in Yaddayadda system against the oppressive system leader Count Badguy by supporting privateering actions against corporate megaships."
This is an absolutely BRILLIANT idea! I'd love to see little local news stories automaticaly generated when I complete an Elite-rated assassination mission, for example. "On Tuesday, Cmdr X dashingly took out Dread Pirate Steve."

Then on the MACRO level have Galnet announce larger political and social needs that could take the form of the old Interstellar Initiatives, or maybe tie to major characters like the powerplay characters who should be better characterized and take on more active roles in story telling. Bring in warnings of scattered thargoid attacks and make them actually be in said locaitons or nearby for more mystery and player actions to search out. Make player actions (as a whole - over a week or so) actually CHANGE things... change who is in power (BGS,powerplay,thargoids) in sectors ... start relieving clues again to The Club, The Dark Wheel, INRA, Raxxla - promote your existing rich lore Fdev!
Yes - scripted weekly events. A Galnet post saying something like "Thargoids have been spotted this week in X system", and then there being a few NHSS' in that system for that week, maybe. Just little things to give the galaxy a sense of chronology and life. Now that I read this back - that's exactly what we did have with the Thargoids 😅
 
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This. Take the lessons learnt from the Premonition event, scale it wider over a greater time interval, with more player input, more arcs, more characters, a blend of lore, personalities, locations and overlapping stories providing missions, quests, exploration, combat, trade mixed in with some political shenanigans. It would be glorious.
Yes - FD as dungeonmaster and all the players as the party is exactly what I'd like to see as well. It is tricky to do, because they'd need to anticipate and plan for multiple outcomes. For example - if they trail the existence of a new alien race, and the coders put a lot of work into the new enemies' behavior and tactics, it would represent a lot of wasted effort for the players to then collectively decide on a peaceful first-contact scenario.

But yes, absolutely this.
 
I started playing in mid-June of this year. I've never known story in this game. It's hard to miss something that never existed. I'm also mostly not a player attracted to videogame stories, as I enjoy my own journey a lot more.

BUT... I do respect that there are a lot of folks for whom story is important.

Personally, I would like to see more initiatives of the form where "Players do X, FDev releases some form of content Y"

The recent Anti-Xeno initiative to collect Thargoid hearts - which resulted in a decal being released and given to those who participated - is a great example.

Like, let us do something to finally have access to a Hutton Mug dash accessory. Or give us the ability to unlock a new Braben bobblehead. Something like that.

Story is cool but something tangible for participation in same is even better, and will help motivate "who cares?" players like me to participate in the larger effort.
 
Id like a scripted campaign. Totally games proved you can do this in ship very well back in the 90's. They could even develop it over time and sell it as dlc etc... pacing might work well if the campaign could be used to set the theme for sandbox play in the months between episodes.. would be awesome.

I'm with you on this.
Although I realy like the latest player initiated narrative around the Dark Wheel I would love to see more story driven missions or activities regarding the Thargoids for example or the Guardians, Inra, Eagis, Dark Wheel.
Fdev realy started something inspiring with the introduction of the Thargoids, it was mysterious, especially when people started to find the bases with those cartographic machines.
Imho Fdev could've done a lot more with that, hints and clues that lead to missions unfolding a story that actually give the Thargoids a place in our galaxy, same can be said about the Guardians etc.

I'm no game developer nor do I have the qualities to come up with good narrative but Fdev has proven they do have those qualities, it's such a pitty they didn't continue using these talents.
 
It wouldn't be that hard for FD to create a mission scripting tool and put an in-game GUI on it which would allow players to script and post their own missions.

If you're tied to a faction, group, or whatever with a particular set of goals, then you could create missions. The credits reward comes from your own account.. the materials from your stash etc.

You set the goal, the location, the potential enemies, the rewards, and a chance to add text - which of course would mean players could actually set part of the narrative in game themselves at a very small level. Missions could be set to spawn once from the station/location intended, or multiple times..
 
Interesting! I actually wouldn't want this - it's a typical MMO thing which I don't think suits Elite particularly. Interestingly, it's pretty much exactly what CIG are planning with Squadron 42 for Star Citizen: a scripted, linear story which acts as a tutorial and introduction to the live game.

It definitely has advantages. It's not something I personally would like to see, but there are definitely good points to it.

Well, personally im happy with the sandbox, even better when there was galnet. I just can't shake the feeling that elite isn't complete without it though. Elite is not whole / top tier without it. For that reason alone i think there's alot of value there.

Also to me, story is more about presenting universe lore than activity content that's arbitrarily present. Some sort of plot to introduce each of the powerplay characters / guardians + thargoids (which the non codex appearing decoding messages tried to do) would be great to have before going in. I can imagine the pure sandbox stuff would be so much richer with a memory of the themes of each of the things while playing them.

But that's just wishing the best for elite, im definitely happy rping my own. Also assuming everything is upstanding inside frontier, they don't seem to have their heart into any narrative at all. With the machima intros and the whole of 2.4.. it seemed they were ready to step up to placing some sort of story narrative in the game.. and that just died without a trace.

EDIT: I could be wrong about my opinion though :p Thinking back, some of the most enjoyable experiences i've had in elite were going to the ground settlements with comms logs.. even the generation ships. The atmosphere and the narrative i really appreciated, those brief moments stood out. Yeah its sorely missing.

EDIT 2: Here's a reminder of what we didnt get:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5XRWy7Cq9U&list=PL7glm5rbPHKyVSz0sc7kFThQsQXGsOclY&index=2
 
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There is no story in ED. Stories need narration. What ED has is bits of lore littered around like it was blown out of its container by a supernova 50 billion years ago. The only viable narration I found was to role-play a character. But that's just personal narration - and has nothing to do with the grind loops FD envisioned as vehicle for narrative.
 
There is no story in ED. Stories need narration.

I think that is the point of this post. Galnet could give narration. Adding ways for players to get into the narrated actions would give it story - would give it life. There used to be mysteries to solve. There used to be initiatives to fight for. There used to be invasions to halt. There used to be story and it could be brought back with a little effort on Fdev's part. (very little... using existing resources.)
 
This is something for better minds than mine, but I think the central issue is that while we as players can support factions and push them in a direction, we can't shape anything large scale. Not without massive cooperation and that is going to be difficult on a superpower type scale.

I do think there should be large scale events that we can't control, we just ride out the storm. It may affect factions, it may be utterly detrimental to what I want to do in the game. But I feel the game needs to make me adapt more, not the game always reacting to what we do.

As a very basic example, deterioration in relations between the Empire and Federation over a diplomatic slight would be something players have no control over, but could be represented changes with Fed or Imp systems, especially those with both Fed and Imp factions in there.
 

And this is it... In this teaser, a powerplay face, Ram Tah actually gets some personality and purpose beyond just a portrait and engineering grind. But this teaser just lead to engineering grind. And this story and characteriztion only really happened in the teaser youtube videos. (ok there was some character life shown in the communication that you got while doing the mission so I take that back) -- but more stuff like this. make the stories and characters in the game ALIVE.. let them tell stories and present challenges to the players.
 
Narrative and lore is dumb. BURN IT WITH FIRE! Frontier has way more important things to worry about, like making us pretty new paint jobs ever week. Less narrative, more paint!!!

Hmm, maybe that's what Galnet should be used for, announcing these lovely new paint jobs! :D
 
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