A Constructive Rant to Frontier

Dear FDev,

I know that you didn't want to have the BGS create regions in which players could bypass hours upon hours of grinding by doing a short, easy loop, but look: it happens, and, more importantly, it kinda works for some people, myself included. I know some of the more elitist people are already screaming "BUT THAT'S NOT THE GAME. YOU'RE RUINING MY IMMERSION!" But some players don't want to take 500 hours to get a cutter, or an anaconda, or a corvette. I certainly wouldn't mind maybe spending 100-150 hours to do this, but I want to get to the nitty-gritty. That is to say, the story. Lately all my attention has been diverted to just getting enough money to afford things like upgrades for my Krait (which I love very much by the way), but all the effective easy ways of obtaining this money that aren't completely mind-numbing have been nerfed to high heaven. I know that the dev team and a lot of the player-base would, for whatever reason, prefer to do this grind, but here's what I say to that, let them. Let them play their way, and let me play mine. I think personally, and this is coming from somebody wanting to go into this industry once I get out of college, it's not your job to be strict upon the player-base, but rather accommodating. Allow those who want to skip the boring parts so that they can reasonably participate in the rich lore and powerplay do so. Within reason, of course, but my definition of reasonable is probably much different from yours. So here's mine: a loop, like the ones you used to find in Parutis or Ngalinn, that is a product of the BGS, not an exploit, that is out of the way of the regular trading traffic, where one can go and get money. I say out of the way becuase the player will really have to "mean it" to get there, and probably they'd have to had built up to a ship like the Asp or the Diamondback before considering making that journey so that players who wanted to do it "the old-fashioned way" could do so undisturbed by loaded mission boards. But, also when I say out of the way, I don't mean "would take a week to get to because it's 30,000LY away" out of the way. In short, I think you'd be doing your game in general a favor by, rather than responding with toxic nerfing to every glimmer of credits that is pointed out on youtube, actually embracing the mechanics of the BGS and allowing players to skip to whatever they find interesting.

This wasn't meant to be rude or trolly. I actually mean all this stuff and I really hope you do take some of what I've said into consideration for the sake of your game's longevity.
Thank you.
CMDR Thermobyte
 
A Constructive Reply to CMDR Thermobyte

Get to the point.

You may have had a good one, but I didn't make it past the rambling, sorry.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Yep sorry, I also have no idea what your actual point is. If you're looking to get into the industry then you may need to work on being more constructive.

You don't want the grind (not that you define what you by think is grinding) you want easy ways of making money so you can bypass all the boring bits, but you don't want it to be too easy.

A form of development in an online multiplayer game that allows people to get things easily without somehow unbalancing the game for those who want to do it "the old fashioned way".

Also, "toxic nerfing"..?
 
But some players don't want to take 500 hours to get a cutter, or an anaconda, or a corvette. I certainly wouldn't mind maybe spending 100-150 hours to do this, but I want to get to the nitty-gritty.
Current high-end earnings in game - if you just go all-out for earning maximum money, using techniques which have been available (and largely untouched by changes for a couple of years, though the fine details vary) - are in the 50-100 million credits per hour range.

So if you're happy for it to take 100-150 hours to get a big-3 ship, you only need to earn at about 5-10% of optimal rate, and can probably pick a way to do it that's associated with an activity you find fun. Someone who wants one really quickly can get a basic big-3 hull in 3-6 hours, and outfit it in another 3-12.

(Knowledge of how the BGS influences the rest of the game is very helpful for earning large amounts of money in a hurry)
 
The rambling wall of text is very difficult to read. A few spaces and carriage returns would be helpful.

And maybe a TL : DR version.
 
Dear FDev,

I know that you didn't want to have the BGS create regions in which players could bypass hours upon hours of grinding by doing a short, easy loop, but look: it happens, and, more importantly, it kinda works for some people, myself included. I know some of the more elitist people are already screaming "BUT THAT'S NOT THE GAME. YOU'RE RUINING MY IMMERSION!" But some players don't want to take 500 hours to get a cutter, or an anaconda, or a corvette. I certainly wouldn't mind maybe spending 100-150 hours to do this, but I want to get to the nitty-gritty. That is to say, the story. Lately all my attention has been diverted to just getting enough money to afford things like upgrades for my Krait (which I love very much by the way), but all the effective easy ways of obtaining this money that aren't completely mind-numbing have been nerfed to high heaven. I know that the dev team and a lot of the player-base would, for whatever reason, prefer to do this grind, but here's what I say to that, let them. Let them play their way, and let me play mine. I think personally, and this is coming from somebody wanting to go into this industry once I get out of college, it's not your job to be strict upon the player-base, but rather accommodating. Allow those who want to skip the boring parts so that they can reasonably participate in the rich lore and powerplay do so. Within reason, of course, but my definition of reasonable is probably much different from yours. So here's mine: a loop, like the ones you used to find in Parutis or Ngalinn, that is a product of the BGS, not an exploit, that is out of the way of the regular trading traffic, where one can go and get money. I say out of the way becuase the player will really have to "mean it" to get there, and probably they'd have to had built up to a ship like the Asp or the Diamondback before considering making that journey so that players who wanted to do it "the old-fashioned way" could do so undisturbed by loaded mission boards. But, also when I say out of the way, I don't mean "would take a week to get to because it's 30,000LY away" out of the way. In short, I think you'd be doing your game in general a favor by, rather than responding with toxic nerfing to every glimmer of credits that is pointed out on youtube, actually embracing the mechanics of the BGS and allowing players to skip to whatever they find interesting.

This wasn't meant to be rude or trolly. I actually mean all this stuff and I really hope you do take some of what I've said into consideration for the sake of your game's longevity.
Thank you.
CMDR Thermobyte

You guys are right for the most part, this is pretty rambley. I did write it at 1:00am. Here's an abridged version:
I understand that things should take time in game, but maybe not as much time as they do now. I think nerfing things like Ngalinn and Quince as soon as you find out about them is not helping though. Please stop doing that.
 
A reply

It is a shame that these methods of earning quickly were interpreted as a threat to average playtime by Fdev. It is entirely possible that the nerfs were the result of a poorly made business decision rather than a developer attempting to fix an abnormality in the background simulation. It may sound mean, but it would be nice if this change had a negative effect on playtime due to sheer boredom. It seems likely that the playerbase will fall unto an entirely different loop of uninteresting gameplay with lower rewards.

A large amount of very interesting gameplay pays either too lowly or not at all. I sincerely hope that the quarter 4 update later this year fixes this, or at least does what the beyond series of updates set out to do by drastically changing how we the players play the game, rather than how Fdev thinks we play the game. It seems strange that a games company has so FEW employees actually play their own games recreationally.

Please note that some frontier employees do in fact play frontier titles, and if you were going to in a unkind response point out that the social media liaison plays elite you should know that I already knew that, which is why I used the word FEW rather than NONE.

This community can seem toxic at some times, and you would be surprised how many times I have seen a response like the one detailed above on the posts of people who are just trying to raise an issue up to developers, or gage the opinion of the community on a subject, or just participating in a healthy conversation. The majority of the ED community is 20+, yet I these very forums you see people acting like children.

Us, as a community need to find what our underlying problem is so that we can get back to doing what a game community is supposed to do. So please, send your thoughts, your criticisms, and your opinions. But please be mature, if I wanted to hear childish bickering I would have became a middle school teacher.
 
You guys are right for the most part, this is pretty rambley. I did write it at 1:00am. Here's an abridged version:
I understand that things should take time in game, but maybe not as much time as they do now. I think nerfing things like Ngalinn and Quince as soon as you find out about them is not helping though. Please stop doing that.

Everyone's mileage differs. I've been playing since game launch*, and forget whether that was 2014 or 2015, but I've only recently bought an Anaconda. True, I tend to buy most ships and hold them, and not trade on. I did sell the Fed Dropship, Assault Ship and Gunship to fund the Conda sooner (for me those three weren't particularly stand-out). I'm probably a year ore more away from buying a Corvette. When I buy I buy at A-grade via Shinrata Dezrata, so the Conda costs ~500m?? and took some saving up for. A-grade Corvette projects out at 600m and the Cutter at 700m. I'm currently on 170m and no plans to sell the Conda, Python, T7, etc. to buy them.

I don't think the OP has much to do with the BGS as I understand it's played, moreso for how it might affect credit earning opportunities.

I'm pretty sure if I focused on it, and sold one ship to buy another, I could have been at the Conda a long time ago (and, actually, I find I don't really like the ship itself but do enjoy the Python for BGS play, and also the Viper Mk IV for CZ fighting, when like this evening, I'm heading for a third martini, and dropping 7m on a lost Python is annoying, but dropping 0.3m on a lost Viper mean nothing).

* Actually, I've been playing in one form or another since 1984, back on my friend's BBC computer and then my Amstrad. I never made Elite rank then, and I've still not now (currently 54% Deadly for combat, similar for trading, and lagging on exploration) so yes, in that sense it's currently been a 34 year 'grind' to earn Elite status and I'm in no particular rush to get there.
 
Dear FDev,

I know that you didn't want to have the BGS create regions in which players could bypass hours upon hours of grinding by doing a short, easy loop, but look: it happens, and, more importantly, it kinda works for some people, myself included. I know some of the more elitist people are already screaming "BUT THAT'S NOT THE GAME. YOU'RE RUINING MY IMMERSION!" But some players don't want to take 500 hours to get a cutter, or an anaconda, or a corvette. I certainly wouldn't mind maybe spending 100-150 hours to do this, but I want to get to the nitty-gritty. That is to say, the story. Lately all my attention has been diverted to just getting enough money to afford things like upgrades for my Krait (which I love very much by the way), but all the effective easy ways of obtaining this money that aren't completely mind-numbing have been nerfed to high heaven. I know that the dev team and a lot of the player-base would, for whatever reason, prefer to do this grind, but here's what I say to that, let them. Let them play their way, and let me play mine. I think personally, and this is coming from somebody wanting to go into this industry once I get out of college, it's not your job to be strict upon the player-base, but rather accommodating. Allow those who want to skip the boring parts so that they can reasonably participate in the rich lore and powerplay do so. Within reason, of course, but my definition of reasonable is probably much different from yours. So here's mine: a loop, like the ones you used to find in Parutis or Ngalinn, that is a product of the BGS, not an exploit, that is out of the way of the regular trading traffic, where one can go and get money. I say out of the way becuase the player will really have to "mean it" to get there, and probably they'd have to had built up to a ship like the Asp or the Diamondback before considering making that journey so that players who wanted to do it "the old-fashioned way" could do so undisturbed by loaded mission boards. But, also when I say out of the way, I don't mean "would take a week to get to because it's 30,000LY away" out of the way. In short, I think you'd be doing your game in general a favor by, rather than responding with toxic nerfing to every glimmer of credits that is pointed out on youtube, actually embracing the mechanics of the BGS and allowing players to skip to whatever they find interesting.

This wasn't meant to be rude or trolly. I actually mean all this stuff and I really hope you do take some of what I've said into consideration for the sake of your game's longevity.
Thank you.
CMDR Thermobyte

Totally understand the argument, and I kinda agree.

But I would be interested to know if Frontier have any stats on this, specifically around rate of income vs longevity.

Pretty sure they'd have the data in the db, it wouldn't surprise me if they already use this data for balance.
 
I actually think everything is fine as it is. This particular game is not one for getting things fast. There are a lot of other games for that.
Don't take this personally but, this is actually the exact sentiment I personally disagree with. Here's why:
Elite is a unique game. It's a game I like to get into. The roleplay aspect of this sci-fi universe is perfect for me, as a fan of space operas. My trouble, however lies in how long it takes to actually get to a part of the game where roleplay becomes something that is not a waste of time. Every time I want to participate in a pilgrimage to Hutton or to Beagle Point, I don't because I'd rather just focus on getting the Anaconda or the Cutter. If this grind took a shorter amount of time -- and I'm not saying radically shorter, like 150-200 million/hr, but I am saying shorter -- maybe something like 250-300 hours of gameplay to get the anaconda, and 350-500 hours to get the corvette or cutter rather than 1000+. My trouble with the argument that one should play another game is that I feel there is no other game that captures the sci-fi atmosphere that players of this genre want better than Elite.
 
What role are you playing that requires an Anaconda?

This thread is getting a bit far from the BGS, but I'll jump in anyway.

My commander's role is someone that joined the Imperial Navy instead of becoming an Imperial Slave because a corrupt dictatorship changed the rules and wiped out his family financially. After getting kicked out of the IN for drugs planted on me he drifted from job to job and wound up as a bouncer in a low quality bar where he got mixed up with the local mob in a bad way. He was given a chance to ferry a Sidewinder for a local patronage faction and made enough to pick up an Imperial Eagle on the way. Now he is protecting the innocent by supporting the Emperor, opposing corrupt dictatorships and criminals and encouraging patronage and feudal factions. (If you want to see his story in more detail, click my .sig.)

This role gives Greybeard reason for joining the last two mining community Goals. It gives a reason to rescue people from burning stations and repair them. There's a reason for his bounty hunting. It also affects his trading (no slaves, drugs) and the missions he takes.

I want to play with a Python and an FDL, and he wants them so he can take bigger missions and make a bigger positive impact on people's lives. But nothing I do (game play) really depends on the size of the ship, just how big an impact Greybeard will have on the (game) world.

To bring this back to the BGS, Greybeard found an ALD control system last night where it appears a player group is supporting an Imperial faction so he jumped in and is running missions to help.
 
Don't take this personally but, this is actually the exact sentiment I personally disagree with. Here's why:
Elite is a unique game. It's a game I like to get into. The roleplay aspect of this sci-fi universe is perfect for me, as a fan of space operas. My trouble, however lies in how long it takes to actually get to a part of the game where roleplay becomes something that is not a waste of time. Every time I want to participate in a pilgrimage to Hutton or to Beagle Point, I don't because I'd rather just focus on getting the Anaconda or the Cutter. If this grind took a shorter amount of time -- and I'm not saying radically shorter, like 150-200 million/hr, but I am saying shorter -- maybe something like 250-300 hours of gameplay to get the anaconda, and 350-500 hours to get the corvette or cutter rather than 1000+. My trouble with the argument that one should play another game is that I feel there is no other game that captures the sci-fi atmosphere that players of this genre want better than Elite.

I am a roleplayer for more than 25 years now and playing computer games roleplaying always is with me. I admit is, I love immersion.
I guess we disagree about the setting of Elite since it's not a space opera, but pretty hard science fiction. If you look at the prequels that becomes a bit clearer I guess. Progress took a long, long time in Elite 1984, Frontier and First Encounters.
StarWars is a space opera, well, actually space fairytale, StatTrek is a utopia fantasy realm with one alien race for every occasion. If you look at Elite, you will notice that its world has a more realistic approach. There are no big heroes saving the day for example, and thus every single Commander is just a pilot making a living, which is exactly what we players do.
The stories told are no epic heroics. Perhaps you are the hero of a conflict zone for a day or two, or you are incredibly lucky and are one of those people who discover something for the first time.
Elite simulates a futuristic reality in which we are invited to jump into and does not set a stage for our heroic stories, which also means even the story of CMDR Jimmy the Sidewinderpilot is important (to Jimmy) and can be pretty exciting (and yes, you can do a lot in a Sidey), and at some point Jimmy will upgrade and become CMDR Jim flying a Cobra MK3... and later an Anaconda and be filthy rich.
But not tomorrow. Reality simulation takes time, even if it's futuristic.
 
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I guess we disagree about the setting of Elite since it's not a space opera, but pretty hard science fiction.
The power distributor, shields and lasers put out considerably more energy than is put in, collisions do a tiny fraction of the damage they should, realspace speeds are largely limited, battles are visual-range only, the economy has inverse economies of scale, etc. etc.

It's a space opera. The only particularly 'hard' realistic thing is the scale and the system generation.
 
Elite is what every single person perceives it to be.

I don't have any problems slaughtering NPCs. They're 0s and 1s, non-sentient bits of code. Players are a completely different matter alltogether for me.

I don't question the validity of the attempted reality of the game. For me it is just that - a game. The most important immersion comes from the interaction with other players. Roleplay is nice, but only if both sides know that they're RPing. There's been too many examples of people using RP in game, Reddit and elsewhere to cover up their nihilistic tendencies.
 
The power distributor, shields and lasers put out considerably more energy than is put in, collisions do a tiny fraction of the damage they should, realspace speeds are largely limited, battles are visual-range only, the economy has inverse economies of scale, etc. etc.

It's a space opera. The only particularly 'hard' realistic thing is the scale and the system generation.

Just because it compromises on it's space sim roots doesn't mean it's a space opera. That also comes down to the setting, not just the game mechanics.
Actually I was talking about the setting and not at all about the game mechanics, which I consider much too soft anyway. :D
 
Wow, Teh Epic™ wall of text. Please do the paragraph thing, so that I don't get a headache just staring at it...

Z...
 
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