Horizons A flaw in the logic?

[Toffmeister]

I'm suffering some butt-hurt. I just lost my Python to an NPC FAS. Yeah I know, the better fighter players are probably laughing at me and saying "Get Gud". But that's ok, I'll "Get Gud" in time, laugh away.

My problem is a seeming flaw in the internal logic of the game. Please note: I was "clean" with no illicit cargo or bounties on me with any other faction.

I was jumped at a Threat 0 signal source by an Expert in an FAS. Now since the signal source showed that there was a destroyed ship (cargo type by the looks of wreckage), it's safe to assume the FAS would have picked up the booty...But an FAS has very limited cargo space, and possibly NO! cargo space if it's outfitted for combat... so what was it doing? Just killing for sport? It could not have POSSIBLY! have collected up the cargo by scooping of two ships in a high security system without the security popping by to see what was going on. And why a Threat 0 if there's a pirate hiding behind wreckage?
It made no sense! You might have well sent a message saying "The game has decided to destroy your ship again for no apparent reason. This will cost you 7 million creds. Have a nice day."

Also, the FAS is a Fed specific ship, you have to grind out a considerable ranking to get one, so are the FEDS encouraging piracy? Do they know that half their ranks are going to the bad side?

The economics of piracy is screwed up, so is the instance of interdiction, it should in no way be as common as it is from NPCs. You have to treat almost all signals as hostile, and I'm not sure that's how it should be. I know ED went for a "Wild West" scenario, but they may have the "Dangerous" part set a little too high.

(By the way, if you are a Pirate Player, I've no problem with that, that's your game, enjoy, it's the game logic I have a problem with.)

 

[Wedgetail]

If we really wanna apply handwavium, It's possible that the FAS has a companion cargo vessel that only comes in after the target (you) has been, erm, "pacified" to scoop up the booty - fairly common in RL pirating in northern africa

Also possible that the pirate faction was once propped up by a federation faction, supplying them with weapons, ships, training, or "advisors", which was then turned to less wholesome uses than merely fighting the bad guys - (again, has been known to happen in RL)

Dunno, I've never really looked for much internal consistency in ED logic

Can't comment about "git gud" though

 

[goemon]

was your USS connected to a mission?

 

[viper666]

Well after you've watched Elite NPC Pirates in a Sidewinder drop into a HAZ RES site and try to face tank the security Condas and numerous vipers, logic sort of goes out the window.
I tend to think the poor NPC has lost his mind searching for materials, a task almost as hard as finding logic in the game.

On a serious note, some USS are simply traps, plus you don't need cargo space for materials or data collection.

 

[Toffmeister]

was your USS connected to a mission?

Nope.

I had about 50T of alluminium I was calling "Home" with, (just to cover fuel etc.) Not connected to any mission.

And there's another flaw. Even if the FAS had collected all my cargo, he'd have to Black Market it, which is at a greatly reduced payout. He'd not cover fuel, ammo and damage cost, and since he's after pure profit...I'm drawing the conclusion he wasn't that bright.

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On a serious note, some USS are simply traps.

I've drawn the same conclusion. I learned the hard way though.

 

[Chris Simon]

If you look at it from player's perspective, there's nothing to stop a player to gain navy ranks in both Federation and the Empire while doing piracy. Historically, there's nothing wrong with a major Power supporting buccaneers, too! You are as likely to meet FAS as you are to meet the Clipper. Be grateful that Frontier didn't alllow NPC pirates to use Cutters and Corvettes.

But yes, a pirate without a proper cargo space is a bit of a stretch.

 

[MickyG1982]

If you look at it from player's perspective, there's nothing to stop a player to gain navy ranks in both Federation and the Empire while doing piracy. Historically, there's nothing wrong with a major Power supporting buccaneers, too! You are as likely to meet FAS as you are to meet the Clipper. Be grateful that Frontier didn't alllow NPC pirates to use Cutters and Corvettes.

But yes, a pirate without a proper cargo space is a bit of a stretch.

If you look into history major powers have always used piracy as a way of subverting their oppositions economy, especially during the times of old sailing ships...

But, as for the wanted cargo, in general npc pirates only have a set number of responses that are picked at random & these aren't always (read almost always not) in context with the actual situation. For example they interdict you when carrying data & still demand cargo, randomly interdict you (this makes sense as they can't scan your hold until they drop you into normal space) & ask for cargo before scanning you...

I did once have a random interdiction where the NPC caught me, said that usually he would scan for cargo but this time he can't be bothered (or words to that effect) so he'll just shoot me instead, which is exactly what he did. In that case it was contextual & (as I'd never seen that response before) I was actually quite impressed. Sometimes they really do just interdict you for sh*ts & giggles, when it works properly it's quite a cool touch, when it works right!

 

[Toffmeister]

If you look at it from player's perspective, there's nothing to stop a player to gain navy ranks in both Federation and the Empire while doing piracy. Historically, there's nothing wrong with a major Power supporting buccaneers, too! .

Example: "Sir" Francis Drake during Queen Elisabeths reign. To England he's a hero, but check out what the Spanish call him (It's not permitted to use such language and profanity on the forum.)

But...Sir F had a purpose to his piracy, and a mandate.

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If you look into history major powers have always used piracy as a way of subverting their oppositions economy, especially during the times of old sailing ships...

Yep, The UK (England) Had Sir Francis Drake etc. But that was then and resources were scarce.

 

[Codger]

Threat 0 can sometimes be a trap. If you drop in and see a live ship, and you're not prepared to fight it, then jump away. I've had pirates show up.

Sometimes they even say, "I can't believe he fell for it!".

 

[xondk]

The economics of piracy is screwed up, so is the instance of interdiction, it should in no way be as common as it is from NPCs. You have to treat almost all signals as hostile, and I'm not sure that's how it should be. I know ED went for a "Wild West" scenario, but they may have the "Dangerous" part set a little too high.

And here we have the threads I mention in other threads, "Threat 0" does mean 'absolutely safe to go here', it means there is no perceived threat, it is an indicator, an ambush can often trigger in these.

In a python however, you should easily be able to run away, so I'm unsure what happened? why didn't you just high wake away?

 

[Toffmeister]

In a python however, you should easily be able to run away, so I'm unsure what happened? why didn't you just high wake away?

The NPC was "Expert" My shields went down fast (only D rated, I'm mostly an explorer) And I didn't make it to high wake, he seemed to be sub targeting as my modules fell like ninepins.

Like I said at the start, I was feeling the butt-hurt because it made no sense and spoiled the immersion. I've calmed down a bit, and I'm going to put it down to the RNG coming up with a 100% killdeath roll. I'll head back to where I belong, the deep dark and weird space. The human bubble plays to rough for me.

 

[d8veh]

You need to look at your log file to see what happened. Everything is recorded in the journal files in

C:\Users\USER\Saved Games\Frontier Developments\Elite Dangerous

where USER is your windows logon name. Check to see if the "pirate" gave any dialogue before you dropped out there, and see what he said when you arrived. That will explain everything. Cut and paste the text from that file here. It looks something like this:

{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:13:47Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Dizmo;", "From_Localised":"Dizmo", "Message":"$BountyHunter_HunterHostileSC_Relevant03;", "Message_Localised":"There you are! That bounty makes you today's meal ticket.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:00Z", "event":"FuelScoop", "Scooped":4.324589, "Total":48.000000 }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Dizmo;", "From_Localised":"Dizmo", "Message":"$BountyHunter_StartInterdiction05;", "Message_Localised":"I've come for the bounty on your head.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:12Z", "event":"Interdicted", "Submitted":true, "Interdictor":"Dizmo", "IsPlayer":false, "Faction":"LHS 1809 Jet Major Partners" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:13Z", "event":"SupercruiseExit", "StarSystem":"LHS 1809", "Body":"LHS 1809 A", "BodyType":"Star" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:14Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Dizmo;", "From_Localised":"Dizmo", "Message":"$Police_Attack02;", "Message_Localised":"Crime detected! ", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:15:33Z", "event":"Bounty", "Rewards":[ { "Faction":"G 175-42 PLC", "Reward":400 } ], "Target":"anaconda", "TotalReward":400, "VictimFaction":"LHS 1809 Jet Major Partners" }

In this case you can see he's a bounty hunter. If he had been a pirate, you could have seen that too.

Do you have a bounty from another system timing out? If, so, you get a message, "There's my meal ticket" or whatever when you're in supercruise, in which case the bounty hunter will join you as soon as you drop out anywhere. If you get any message in supercruise and you don't want to fight, don't drop out until you reach the station. It's very easy to miss those messages while you're concentrating on other things, but they're recorded in the log files.

 

[Toffmeister]

You need to look at your log file to see what happened. Everything is recorded in the journal files in

C:\Users\USER\Saved Games\Frontier Developments\Elite Dangerous

where USER is your windows logon name. Check to see if the "pirate" gave any dialogue before you dropped out there, and see what he said when you arrived. That will explain everything. Cut and paste the text from that file here. It looks something like this:

{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:13:47Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Dizmo;", "From_Localised":"Dizmo", "Message":"$BountyHunter_HunterHostileSC_Relevant03;", "Message_Localised":"There you are! That bounty makes you today's meal ticket.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:00Z", "event":"FuelScoop", "Scooped":4.324589, "Total":48.000000 }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Dizmo;", "From_Localised":"Dizmo", "Message":"$BountyHunter_StartInterdiction05;", "Message_Localised":"I've come for the bounty on your head.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:12Z", "event":"Interdicted", "Submitted":true, "Interdictor":"Dizmo", "IsPlayer":false, "Faction":"LHS 1809 Jet Major Partners" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:13Z", "event":"SupercruiseExit", "StarSystem":"LHS 1809", "Body":"LHS 1809 A", "BodyType":"Star" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:14:14Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Dizmo;", "From_Localised":"Dizmo", "Message":"$Police_Attack02;", "Message_Localised":"Crime detected! ", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-03-09T20:15:33Z", "event":"Bounty", "Rewards":[ { "Faction":"G 175-42 PLC", "Reward":400 } ], "Target":"anaconda", "TotalReward":400, "VictimFaction":"LHS 1809 Jet Major Partners" }

In this case you can see he's a bounty hunter. If he had been a pirate, you could have seen that too.

Do you have a bounty from another system timing out? If, so, you get a message, "There's my meal ticket" or whatever when you're in supercruise, in which case the bounty hunter will join you as soon as you drop out anywhere. If you get any message in supercruise and you don't want to fight, don't drop out until you reach the station. It's very easy to miss those messages while you're concentrating on other things, but they're recorded in the log files.

I'll give that a try, but really like I said, I just got angry at what looked like a complete "You just rolled a six, go back 7million creds." event. I still say the whole piracy thing in ED is not as good as it could be. As things stand there seem to be as many pirates as players, and the economy would just not stand that level of attrition.
Would the USA tolerate Somali pirates operating Just outside New York Harbour? Or the UK allow pirates to mooch around in the English Channel?

 

[Fire70]

I think the lesson in this is if you don't have a ship that can defend itself don't drop out of super cruise until you get to a station...

 

[Chris Simon]

I think the lesson in this is if you don't have a ship that can defend itself don't drop out of super cruise until you get to a station...

Heh, well, if when you put it that way, why stop half way there? I'd say if you don't have a ship that can defend itself, don't leave the station!