A living breathing economy

[jadefriendly]

X-Beyond The Frontier is a weird game: there are aspects of it that are very silly (the race names & commodities, for example) and the gate / sectro layout means it's quite small - all the major stellar objects are essentially backdrops.

But it does have some things that Elite Dangerous could learn from - and the top of those things is the Economy

there is real 'supply and demand' - the factories can't build without ore & food...the food needs to be grown...there is a full circle with each thing feeding into another. as demand goes up, prices go up. But more importantly - the background simulation actually has ships transporting these goods. You can target one particular economy and blockade it.

We know this can be programmed into a much smaller game than Elite. I understand the idea is the background simulation is BIG and the players SMALL so we can't just take a handful off ships and change the whole economy - but the idea of pirating ships going into a small system, stealing only food supplies to drive up the price...this is one of the things that was claimed a lot in the development and I really hoped would happen.

However, as we know, the ships are just instanced and none of them are ever doing anything relevant to the systems they are in. Stocks are supplied automatically, and systems still create goods regardless of whether anyone is selling them the parts or food to do so.

I really hope that FD put some work into this aspect of the game....

 

[I and I Redeye]

I liked that about X-series. The npc's were actually there moving goods around and not just number crunching in the background.

I've ceased all activity regards the background sim now. It just doesn't feel real enough.

 

[X2Eliah]

In short, tracking all ships in existence, X-style, would impose absolutely insane workload on the servers. Having to sync everything between.. how many backers are there now, 500 thousand or so? having to sync all the tiny ships to that many people (potentially - probably not like 500k at once, but all of them intheory should be accommodated for...) is, well, not feasible. (X economy was also ludicrously easy to crash - and Egosoft had huge problems with properly integrating the additional sectors in functional ways in the later X games... The Terran economy tended to be pretty unprofitable, and the bottom-right corner of the X-univ. also tended to be predominantly out of stock for most things, iirc. ^^ I recall we also had quite a few issues when making sure that XTC's new-universe economy worked - it sometimes literally came down to manually having to tweak station distances from the gates to manipulate the NPC traders' efficiency & overall decisions... X-style economy sounds neat, but it's very, very fragile - too much so for a multiplayer game.)

Anyway. Are the instanced ships here in no way connected to the economy sim? Maybe there is an indirect, numbers-based impact from player piracy activity...

 

[jadefriendly]

In short, tracking all ships in existence, X-style, would impose absolutely insane workload on the servers. Having to sync everything between.. how many backers are there now, 500 thousand or so? having to sync all the tiny ships to that many people (potentially - probably not like 500k at once, but all of them intheory should be accommodated for...) is, well, not feasible. (X economy was also ludicrously easy to crash - and Egosoft had huge problems with properly integrating the additional sectors in functional ways in the later X games... The Terran economy tended to be pretty unprofitable, and the bottom-right corner of the X-univ. also tended to be predominantly out of stock for most things, iirc. ^^ I recall we also had quite a few issues when making sure that XTC's new-universe economy worked - it sometimes literally came down to manually having to tweak station distances from the gates to manipulate the NPC traders' efficiency & overall decisions... X-style economy sounds neat, but it's very, very fragile - too much so for a multiplayer game.)

Anyway. Are the instanced ships here in no way connected to the economy sim? Maybe there is an indirect, numbers-based impact from player piracy activity...

I understand that mimicing XBTF would be an impossibility - as I said it's a small game in comparison, and we know the ships in E-D are instanced.

but there must be some way of coding that those instanced ships are actually relevant to the system they are in, and logging piracy against say one area or commodity or faction, and it's ACTUAL influence on a commodity market. we were told in the Kickstarter that players would be able to influence the economy, cause (and respond to) famines, high demands etc. but everything so far has been artificial and clunky. it never feels like anything is actually desperately needed or in short supply

I really do hope that these aspects of the game are seriously looked at by FD, as it's this kind of life that will ultimately ensure long-term gaming.

 

[Alien147]

I picked up the X series at X2 and loved it, it had it's quirks but it was a very enjoyable space game. Sectors were teaming with life and trade routes were being plied.

While I'm not too bothered about player influenced fluctuations in price, I think the current situation where there is no incentive to trade anything other than rare metals, or high tech stuff is kind of limiting. What are these humans eating on the stations? I like trading in tea, coffee and booze and I feel I am doing a service to the community, but that's in my head... it needs to be incentivised in game. High tech items, rare metals etc should be...well, rare, or at least in low supply and only in high demand in select places. There are a huge number of commodities, but i wonder what people are actually trading. I seem to remember updates on what items were trading well so I'm sure it's being tracked. If it's just Palladium and Progenitor cells then there's a problem.

 

[Riedquat]

In short, tracking all ships in existence, X-style, would impose absolutely insane workload on the servers. Having to sync everything between.. how many backers are there now, 500 thousand or so? having to sync all the tiny ships to that many people (potentially - probably not like 500k at once, but all of them intheory should be accommodated for...) is, well, not feasible. (X economy was also ludicrously easy to crash - and Egosoft had huge problems with properly integrating the additional sectors in functional ways in the later X games... The Terran economy tended to be pretty unprofitable, and the bottom-right corner of the X-univ. also tended to be predominantly out of stock for most things, iirc. ^^ I recall we also had quite a few issues when making sure that XTC's new-universe economy worked - it sometimes literally came down to manually having to tweak station distances from the gates to manipulate the NPC traders' efficiency & overall decisions... X-style economy sounds neat, but it's very, very fragile - too much so for a multiplayer game.)

Anyway. Are the instanced ships here in no way connected to the economy sim? Maybe there is an indirect, numbers-based impact from player piracy activity...

They wouldnt have to do all the ships, maybe start with just some of them.

But persistent ships are needed in a big way.

 

[X2Eliah]

but there must be some way of coding that those instanced ships are actually relevant to the system they are in, and logging piracy against say one area or commodity or faction, and it's ACTUAL influence on a commodity market.

I think so, yes - it should be possible. Having economy statistics defining a system (even if as basic as big-imports, low-imports, low-exports, big-exports) and basing the in-system npc trader spawn rations & cargoes on that. And subsequently, tracking player piracy and using that as an economy modifier. I think, with 1.3 FD are already adding more relevance to the hyperspace in-system environment, by connecting it with mission-targets and such - so maybe nonrandom traders are not far off too.

 

[Kayweg]

I think what you're suggesting here (and i don't disagree with the vision) is a change, too fundamental to make post launch.

That's not something to "patch in", it would have needed to be an inherent part of the entire game design.

Supply and demand, production chains, consumptions based on planet populations and political and economical turmoils.

If at all possible, which i doubt given the size of even just the populated space), i suspect it may also have blown the available budget to bits.

It's an awesome dream, i share it, i simply don't think it's achievable....even if they had tried.

 

[Alien147]

...It's an awesome dream, i share it, i simply don't think it's achievable....even if they had tried.

I think some of what they have tried is unachievable

Seriously though, there are some simple things that need putting right that could make a lot of difference. I'm hoping 1.3 delivers some positive changes in this regard.

 

[jadefriendly]

I think some of what they have tried is unachievable

Seriously though, there are some simple things that need putting right that could make a lot of difference. I'm hoping 1.3 delivers some positive changes in this regard.

I don't think the changes to add content, personality & life to the economy & simulation are unachievable - i think they're just not a priority for FD right now. Which is a shame.

 

[Doolittle]

It's sad when you can say the old X2 game makes ED look like the Elite clone in comparison. You ought to try Evochron Mercenaries it had a working economy that you could effect just as the X-universe, and only one dev..... pretty amazing compared to what FD has done with ED. Too bad FD had to make the game MP only or we would have had the next true Elite game. This one is just pew-pew and pvp, I think Star Lancer was better, putting the graphics aside.

FD really needs to take the reigns on this game and do it justice or it is nothing but another Elite clone.

 

[shadragon]

A living breathing economy based on supply and demand can be manipulated and you can bet it will be.

 

[jadefriendly]

A living breathing economy based on supply and demand can be manipulated and you can bet it will be.

well, that's kinda the point.

 

[Parmo]

I'm speculating here.
I think FD is trying to get a large enough persistent player base so that the economy is created and formed solely from the activities of that player base. Just as in our real world game, sorry, economy.
There would be no need for a synthetic economy as in the X series of games.
And ED is not an Elite clone.

 

[Alien147]

...Too bad FD had to make the game MP only or we would have had the next true Elite game...

I'm speculating here.
I think FD is trying to get a large enough persistent player base so that the economy is created and formed solely from the activities of that player base...

Doolittle, I think FD had to make this latest instalment multiplayer, to do otherwise would have drawn howls of derision! (Not from everyone of course, certainly not from me) However I think so much energy has gone into the implementation that other aspects have been less prioritised, and the current multiplayer experience is less than stellar.

Parmo makes a valid point, I do believe that FD want the player base to form the 'life' of the game. I've mentioned elsewhere that I believe this is why the NPCs are lacking any character or interaction, I think FD want other players to be your 'NPC'. Perhaps that is also how they see the economy developing? But that makes the point I made earlier all the more pertinent, if there is no reason / incentive to trade anything other than the top two or three commodities, how does that represent a dynamic economy?

1.3 will bring change, hopefully positive change, and as the game continues to develop I hope other aspects are fleshed out. I'm not interested in the powerplay story, to me they have really veered off course here from the Elite experience I remember and was hoping for. But I realise this is a new game and there's no use pining for the past. If this incarnation can step out from the shadow of it's illustrious predecessors and stand as a solid addition to the Elite canon in its own right, I'll be a happy CMDR.

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

I think so, yes - it should be possible. Having economy statistics defining a system (even if as basic as big-imports, low-imports, low-exports, big-exports) and basing the in-system npc trader spawn rations & cargoes on that. And subsequently, tracking player piracy and using that as an economy modifier. I think, with 1.3 FD are already adding more relevance to the hyperspace in-system environment, by connecting it with mission-targets and such - so maybe nonrandom traders are not far off too.

They actually already do a bit of this. The NPC's use the systems supply/demand to pick what cargo they carry. If you get a piracy mission to get a few tons of X you're best going to a system that produces X to pirate it from the NPC's. It's randomised though so there are always some wildcards thrown into the mix. The NPC's could do with acting a bit more logical though in their persistence as they often don't dock and just fly past the station and randomly jump somewhere before doing that again.

 

[Jukelo]

A living breathing economy based on supply and demand can be manipulated and you can bet it will be.

That's the whole point. With a dynamic economy, players can actively create opportunities (exploit and manipulate it) through various means, rather than just looking for the one trade route to farm until it's exhausted and then move on to the next while the first one is restocking. Atm there is no actual trading in Elite, it's all space trucking in a very static market.

 

[Calvert]

So I think part of the problem was nailed by the OP. In XBTF, the game is player centric in that the games revolves around the player. There is only 1 so it's perfectly ok to let them have minimal input maximum output effects on the galaxy because there is only one. I remember many years ago they were going to do X-Online. It never got past being an idea. I suspect because the mechanics of having lots of real players woul have upset many of the mechanics.

However, the waffle said, I agree it would be good if it was at least feasile with enough commanders all doing the same thing taht we could have an effect. And I think that is what they are trying to achieve with Power Play (as a mechanic, obviously I've drifted off the economy now lol!). Now, if we could integrate power play more into the economy mechanic so that on border worlds, NPCs would be helping us disrupt supply lines, we would have a much more dynamic feeling world. EG, if you are a frontier world and you are in Turmoil, all hell should be breaking loose in the economy with opportunities for savvy traders who want to run the gauntlet of the conflict. This brings an indirect economy effect with the safeguards and limitations of the powerplay mechanic.

 

[Skvala]

I think FD is trying to get a large enough persistent player base so that the economy is created and formed solely from the activities of that player base. Just as in our real world game, sorry, economy.
There would be no need for a synthetic economy as in the X series of games.

I do believe that FD want the player base to form the 'life' of the game. I've mentioned elsewhere that I believe this is why the NPCs are lacking any character or interaction, I think FD want other players to be your 'NPC'. Perhaps that is also how they see the economy developing? But that makes the point I made earlier all the more pertinent, if there is no reason / incentive to trade anything other than the top two or three commodities, how does that represent a dynamic economy?

I honestly don't see any indication that FD are aiming for a full-scale player-driven economy. Everything about the game as it stands seems to have been specifically designed to prevent this.

EVE Online represents a (mostly) player-driven economy, and I just don't see how ED's neither-one-thing-or-the-other nature could accommodate an economy like that. I think the economic dynamic we have is the one we're keeping - although I admit I haven't paid any attention to PowerPlay as yet, so I may be missing some significant updates to the simulation (such as the addition of a simulation*).

(* This was unnecessarily snarky.)