A message to smugglers from supporters of Archon Delaine. (Power Play post)

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Hold on hold on, so is this RP or not?

I thought we were RPing, but it seems like we're not, then I guess this is what I have to say:

https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/03-JUN-3301

https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/05-JUN-3301


This lore would seem to indicate that Delaine rules with an iron fist and that the Kumo Crew does exactly what Delaine says.

Oh so we're bringing FD in this? Okay then, can we discuss the Imperial bias of having the Imperial Clipper completely outclass the Fed Dropship, best PP faction weapons all go to the Empire powers, Empire factions seeing almost no opposition at all for several cycles.


FD's Empire bias cannot be more obvious. Also please remember that Galnet is a mainstream media, of course it is going to demonize anything the mainstream society doesn't approve. I thought that's obvious?

At this point I can probably call it typical mass media's typical hyperbole and exaggeration.

I'm not a power endorsing slavery criticising another power that has slavery. I'm an individual who is criticising an outside power that has slavery, and individual who has criticisms of Imperial slavery inside the Empire. I'm pro-abolition and speak openly about the criticisms I have of the Empire. And none it changes the fact of the brutality used by the Kumo Crew.

Okay, maybe you want to make that clear before flipping out? I can't exactly read mind.

Also, your interpretation of the Kumo Crew seem very dependent on mass media that undoubtedly mislead people. Have you worked under both sides (Archon and Imperial powers) to support any observation?

Because I have.

Me personally? Or am I standing in for the whole Empire again? Reiterating - Delaine and the Kumo Crew dislike weakness and give credit to being strong enough to take what you want; it seemed pointless therefore to discuss the matter with Delaine, since that would be taken as a sign of weakness. As for civilisation, civilised governments generally stand by the policy "don't negotiate with terrorists".

You as in Empire. Again, your conclusion seem to have no observation other than blind faith in the Empire. You find it pointless to discuss matter with Delaine, great, you personally do.

As to your reference, I believe the quote is US based. I am a political science major and I can tell you right now the phrase "civilized" is nothing but a glorified justification for one culture. US military enter warlords' territory, and does not wipe them out as long as they negotiate and fight against something the US find to be its enemy. Why? Because other people have their ways of life and taking that from them is more devastating than taking their lives. Also, how ironic, US used to endorse slavery and still have racial issues today which stemmed heavily from that origin.

Do you mean exterminate the Kumo Crew if Delaine is toppled? Not possible, since your commanders can continue flying however and whenever they like even if their leader were gone. Game mechanics aside - I've never said anything about extermination, my IC objective regarding the Kumo Crew is to topple them from a position of power and liberate the many systems forcibly paying tribute. I've also never used the word "holy". Would like to know where and who said it was "holy".

Again, thought we were RPing. I understand that you have no intention to try to chase down all Delaine backers even if he collapses, that would be funny though.

The word "holy" is used in relevance to "crusade," which the modern interpretation tend to have a negative connotation on about one culture exercising ethnocentrism and try to oppress other cultures.

Established morality? Like I said, my views are quite unpopular and I've heavily criticised the Empire in its current structure. The Empire needs to change.

Folks are allowed to claim whatever they like, just like you're doing now; part of that whole human rights thing I believe in. Woops. I guess that scuttles your argument that I have a "sole intention" to "oppressively infringe" upon you.

So, the Kumo Crew aren't looking to impose their philosophy of "a person only has what rights they can hold onto" and "power is the forcible application of will" on anyone, and I should just try it your way, seize my rights to express my views and then impose them on you... oh, wait, but then you wouldn't believe in those things any more... Come to think of it why are you complaining since you already believe I'm imposing my views on you if your philosophy is that if I'm strong I should take my rights and force my will on others? Surely if I'm doing that then I'm doing exactly what you want - trying out Kumo Crew philosophy. <3

Then the same is to be said to my faction, I want to change portion of it, too.

As for the diction you pointed out, that is in reference to the Empire's current stand, if you want to take it personally, be my guest.

"a person only has what rights they can hold onto" and "power is the forcible application of will"

These were not spoken by me and I do not believe they are a part of my interpretation of Archon Delaine from experience. Your Empire fellows seem quite diversified in opinions, as well, even in this thread.

Before the next part, Philosophy minor here, so you know I'm not trying to namedrop randomly.

If you believe in might is right, then you should take some time to read the Prince and the Discourse by Machiavelli and gain a better understanding of how his Republic works and how he satirically criticizes principality. Because as it stands, you are touching some very shallow surface of the said philosophy.

Since the rest of your comment isn't based on my statements, I won't reply to them since I don't hold the intellectual obligation nor qualification to.

However if I were to satisfy said prerequisites, I would say that if you truly believe in might is right, you should oppress us if you feel that to be right and imperative. However that seems quite distance from what the Empire strives to be.

I suggest you stop making personal attacks and being intentionally inflammatory, it has no place in the rigours of serious debate.

Apologies if you are insulted. However I was under the impression that this is RP, but since it appears not to be, then I must say that you have used some questionable diction, as well. Please be aware of your own words.

- - - Updated - - -

The Kumo Crew wanted me to respond to them point by point.

Where is that request?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Oh dear it's 5 A.M...

Sleep here I come <3

 

[Apos]

You mean the Empire of 1000 years ago before anyone alive today was even born?

If you bothered to talk to Imperial commanders you'd find out the wide variety of viewpoints and philosophies going on. I'm well-known as supporting a meritocracy and being for abolition. And I've never said the Imperial way is the "only" way to excellence - if you consult my post I clearly state only that the Kumo Crew's way does not seem the best way in my opinion, and that Humanity could be better through reason, understanding, and so forth - I don't state that the Empire is the way to do it.

The only two Torval commanders in that thread are DoubleSkulls and Swift Arrow, so I assume you wanted to direct my attention to what they said about wanting to trade Imperial slaves to Delaine. If you think I'm going to say the post displays Imperial excellence, you're mistaken. I'm solidly opposed to it. You may not know but there is a lot of internal disagreement in viewpoints amongst Imperials.

I'm sure that no imperial really smuggles slaves. It's just SwiftArrow.

If there's internal disagreement, it's time you solved it instead of providing grounds for their politics to grow.

The empire is all about talk and little action. Even the federals are doing bigger attempts to diminish slavery within their systems. Meanwhile, the majority of the Aisling supporters are busy profiting from Torval's routes. And the princess has kept on rumbling about it, but to this day has done little to free slaves in her domain.

The Alliance has already overthrow the Bielonti Silver Gang, the main culprit behind the smuggling of slaves and imperial slaves within our territory.

"We will abolish slaves...just one more shipment of them and we will, I promise."

-Imperial abolitionists

 

[Commander Starcloak]

Hold on hold on, so is this RP or not?

I thought it was RP right up until the point where you insulted my epistimic anthropology.

Oh so we're bringing FD in this? Okay then, can we discuss the Imperial bias of having the Imperial Clipper completely outclass the Fed Dropship, best PP faction weapons all go to the Empire powers, Empire factions seeing almost no opposition at all for several cycles.

Are we bringing FD into this? I'm a commander with no say whatsoever in the features that get implemented into the game. As for Empire factions seeing almost no opposition, that's a question to ask non-Imperial pledgers. Is there a reason they're not opposing more?

FD's Empire bias cannot be more obvious. Also please remember that Galnet is a mainstream media, of course it is going to demonize anything the mainstream society doesn't approve. I thought that's obvious?

Galnet is being written by the players at this point. The Kumo Crew themselves openly make use of it to disseminate your propaganda - Mikalus wrote "Imperial Commanders Closing in on Secret Smuggling", Shadewarlock wrote "Smuggling on the Rise in Conflict-Strewn Pegasi Sector".

Also, your interpretation of the Kumo Crew seem very dependent on mass media that undoubtedly mislead people. Have you worked under both sides (Archon and Imperial powers) to support any observation?

Because I have.

I've seen what goes on in Delaine's space. I've rescued the poor folks who barely escaped your massacres. Look, we could RP this all day with both of us claiming to have (RP) seen things the other has not. That seems unlikely to resolve anything.

I am a political science major

I have a post-grad in history, anthropology, philosophy, and politics. Yet you deem me not qualified to comment.

I understand that you have no intention to try to chase down all Delaine backers even if he collapses, that would be funny though.

So then why accuse me of wanting to exterminate Delaine pledgers? I have no intention whatsoever of exterminating Delaine pledgers, and the game mechanics prevent anyone from doing so even if they wanted to.

The word "holy" is used in relevance to "crusade," which the modern interpretation tend to have a negative connotation on about one culture exercising ethnocentrism and try to oppress other cultures.

Seriously, who called the Imperial campaign against Delaine a crusade? I sure as heck haven't. I'm thinking perhaps you saw an Imperial commander use the word "crusade" somewhere? It may well be that some Imperial commander somewhere did use the word. Doesn't mean I agree with them though.

Then the same is to be said to my faction, I want to change portion of it, too.

Well, you know, we blindly faithful folks who openly admit we have criticisms of our power have to stick together.

These were not spoken by me and I do not believe they are a part of my interpretation of Archon Delaine from experience.

This again is not going to get us anywhere because our individual roleplays mean we've each got different interpretations of how things are in the Elite galaxy. Certain things you say about the Empire are not a part of my interpretation of the Empire at all.

Your Empire fellows seem quite diversified in opinions, as well, even in this thread.

Yes. It is baffling why you assert that we want to impose some sort of unified "established morality" on everyone else when we don't even have a unified morality amongst ourselves, and we certainly don't want to impose anything - I believe everyone here is free to express their views. How is that imposing?

If you believe in might is right, then you should take some time to read the Prince and the Discourse by Machiavelli and gain a better understanding of how his Republic works and how he satirically criticizes principality. Because as it stands, you are touching some very shallow surface of the said philosophy.

I don't believe might is right.

Delaine's Kumo Crew is founded on the belief that might is right. Delaine himself states it. You therefore have no ground to stand on when you advocate anyone else letting your philosophy flourish alongside alternative views because you don't believe in letting any other alternative views stand. Ironically by moving in with the Imperial fleet, the Empire is playing it exactly by the standards you claim to respect and live by - force - but then you start a thread claiming that the Empire wants to control you, protesting Imperial strong-arming, and inviting people to join you as the poor, preyed upon little guy. If you believe in might is right - which the Kumo Crew does - then when someone else stronger than you comes along its perfectly in keeping with your philosophy. At least argue your position on a platform that does not fundamentally contradict Kumo Crew ethos.

Apologies if you are insulted. However I was under the impression that this is RP, but since it appears not to be, then I must say that you have used some questionable diction, as well. Please be aware of your own words.

So this: "If you contemplate that strength is only expressed through physical fitness and physique, then I must laugh at your lack of education and philosophical understanding of humanity in general. If you do not even possess the basic knowledge of epistemic anthropology, then I suggest you return when you gained the necessary knowledge to comment on the matter." isn't a personal insult? Not only did you insult my education, my qualifications, my intelligence, and my ability to comment, but you did so without any knowledge of the actual qualifications I possess, and you somehow thought that I'd said strength was only expressed through physical fitness and physique when in fact from the very start I've held the opposite position.

Where is that request?

By responding to me point by point, you inferred that in order to defend my position I must respond in turn to each point you brought up.

I'm sure that no imperial really smuggles slaves. It's just SwiftArrow.

If there's internal disagreement, it's time you solved it instead of providing grounds for their politics to grow.

The empire is all about talk and little action. Even the federals are doing bigger attempts to diminish slavery within their systems. Meanwhile, the majority of the Aisling supporters are busy profiting from Torval's routes. And the princess has kept on rumbling about it, but to this day has done little to free slaves in her domain.

The Alliance has already overthrow the Bielonti Silver Gang, the main culprit behind the smuggling of slaves and imperial slaves within our territory.

"We will abolish slaves...just one more shipment of them and we will, I promise."

-Imperial abolitionists

Don't make sarcastic statements. More than one Imperial commander trades in Imperial slaves. On the other side of the credit however, there are those of us who have never participated in the slave trade. Again, I ask, how do you expect me to singlehandedly solve internal disagreement? I'm not an FDev, I don't have that kind of power. You're Alliance? Then you should know that people have differing opinions and you can't just force them all to agree. I have my position, but others in the Empire have theirs and I can't just force them to agree with me.

 

[Apos]

Don't make sarcastic statements. More than one Imperial commander trades in Imperial slaves. On the other side of the credit however, there are those of us who have never participated in the slave trade. Again, I ask, how do you expect me to singlehandedly solve internal disagreement? I'm not an FDev, I don't have that kind of power. You're Alliance? Then you should know that people have differing opinions and you can't just force them all to agree. I have my position, but others in the Empire have theirs and I can't just force them to agree with me.

I don't expect "you" as in singular, but "you" as in plural.

If you are in the minority with little to no power to influence the course of the empire, then surely all claims about the Empire you envision are irrelevant since it can't come to fruition. Instead, the efforts are instead taken advantage towards the exact opposite. In reality, you provide strength to what you oppose.

And please stop bringing yourself as the sacrificial goat example.

 

[CMDR Malkov]

Seriously, who called the Imperial campaign against Delaine a crusade? I sure as heck haven't. I'm thinking perhaps you saw an Imperial commander use the word "crusade" somewhere? It may well be that some Imperial commander somewhere did use the word. Doesn't mean I agree with them though.

Well ALD have certainly used the phrase. They seem fond of rhetoric involving glory, making history, shaping the galaxy etc. They have an Inquisition too


...once we don't have to worry about expansions we can nail their coffin shut one turmoil system at a time until they implode. This is a worthy cause to shape our Galaxy and humanity into a better and more peaceful place, There's always going to be political difference between every power but at least we're all civilized unlike Archon.
If you wish to Join this crusade of justice carry this message to your power, to your forum, Facebook group, your team speak where ever your wing mates gather and let's make history

 

[Infinity1]

Salute felllow commanders!

I'd like to use that thread to speak to my fellow imperial brothers,
My fellow imperial brother, i am my self an humble servitor of our beloved emperor!
and i think it is time to settle this conflict and come to a cease fire or even a sort a alliance with the kumo crew, yes an alliance,
i still remember when we emperor's childrens used to tear us appart from each other with the "emperor's grace" affair and i like what i see actually : a united empire working together on the same objective ! that's beautifull! yes but...
The kumo crew isn't the biggest ennemy of the empire, no while we hit hard the kumo crew.... hudson and the feds grow stronger, and there lie our ennemy : on mars!
The kumo crew and torval trading policy allow us both kumo crew and imperial citizen to earn maasive credit on the torval/delaine frontier, and wealthy empire's cmdr mean wealthy empire power : more valuable ship, better equipment etc... let settle this conflict with the kumo crew and strenghen our empire, stop the conflict , and let's head our gun's in the direction of .. hudson and especially sol! Imagine how sweet would it be if the empire of achenar conquer sol! mars under the achenar banner!
Why not leaving delaine expend in the fed territory along with us, growing a big frontier with torval while the ohter imperial powers conquer system around too!
If the kumo crew accept to send their pirate in fed's territory and sign a non agression pact with the empire we could crush hudson and the fed's with a neverseen firepower yet!
Let delaine guarentee the right treatment of all imperial slave in sold in his territory!
Whatever started this conflict in the past we'd better stop being that short sighted! think about the future of the empire!

Sorry for this long and poorly writted post and thank you for considering this : the ennemy of my ennemy is my ally!

Sounds good to me, not that I rank high enough in the Kumo Crew to make this deal happen. You should try to talk your people into officially proposing this to us, I suspect my people would at least give it good consideration.

∞
CMDR Infinity+1

 

[Mikalus]

Originally Posted by GluttonyFang
Apologies if you are insulted. However I was under the impression that this is RP, but since it appears not to be, then I must say that you have used some questionable diction, as well. Please be aware of your own words.



So this: "If you contemplate that strength is only expressed through physical fitness and physique, then I must laugh at your lack of education and philosophical understanding of humanity in general. If you do not even possess the basic knowledge of epistemic anthropology, then I suggest you return when you gained the necessary knowledge to comment on the matter." isn't a personal insult? Not only did you insult my education, my qualifications, my intelligence, and my ability to comment, but you did so without any knowledge of the actual qualifications I possess, and you somehow thought that I'd said strength was only expressed through physical fitness and physique when in fact from the very start I've held the opposite position.

Originally Posted by GluttonyFang
Where is that request?



By responding to me point by point, you inferred that in order to defend my position I must respond in turn to each point you brought up.

I believe that Fang's original comments were made as part of Roleplay. I don't think he expected to touch a nerve of yours outside of the rp environment. That was my interpretation, I suppose Fang can respond for himself though.

RE: Galnet.

The fact it is written by commanders, myself included, does indeed make it propaganda. Some articles are posted without a commanders name but still written by commanders. Until a more neutral news organization comes along (I believe that will happen) I approach all Galnet artciles as propaganda. In the spirit of roleplay, mine certainly have that slant, although the smuggling piece you talked about certainly was fairly neutral compared to some others

 

[Commander Starcloak]

It's probably for the best if we don't continue the debate - besides, there's a point at which it all gets moot since we don't have enough solid canon in the game to go off. Thanks Malkov, for the ALD quote - I had a suspicion that somewhere another Imperial must've used the word, personally I'm not a fan of the high rhetoric - and Mikalus, I have to say I enjoy your articles and think they're well-written, I hope you join the new group being set up on reddit for Galnet writers.

 

[Mikalus]

It's probably for the best if we don't continue the debate - besides, there's a point at which it all gets moot since we don't have enough solid canon in the game to go off. Thanks Malkov, for the ALD quote - I had a suspicion that somewhere another Imperial must've used the word, personally I'm not a fan of the high rhetoric - and Mikalus, I have to say I enjoy your articles and think they're well-written, I hope you join the new group being set up on reddit for Galnet writers.

Debate ended
And yes, I have joined that group. I am looking forward to it

 

[GluttonyFang]

I thought it was RP right up until the point where you insulted my epistimic anthropology.

RP's aggression should be kept on a RP level, at least that's what I think how it works.

Are we bringing FD into this? I'm a commander with no say whatsoever in the features that get implemented into the game. As for Empire factions seeing almost no opposition, that's a question to ask non-Imperial pledgers. Is there a reason they're not opposing more?

Galnet is being written by the players at this point. The Kumo Crew themselves openly make use of it to disseminate your propaganda - Mikalus wrote "Imperial Commanders Closing in on Secret Smuggling", Shadewarlock wrote "Smuggling on the Rise in Conflict-Strewn Pegasi Sector".

You don't, but I'm pointing out why Galnet can be a very inaccurate source of information. The article written by Mikalus intends to ridicule Torval, while Shadewarlock's piece is about his personal view on the Imperial aggression. I don't see how does that have anything to do with my "propaganda," which is, if anything really a piece of my interpretation of Archon Delaine.

I've seen what goes on in Delaine's space. I've rescued the poor folks who barely escaped your massacres. Look, we could RP this all day with both of us claiming to have (RP) seen things the other has not. That seems unlikely to resolve anything.

Makes sense, but that's the fun about RPing, it's not about proving one another to be scientifically wrong, but generating some interesting/confrontational conversations.

I have a post-grad in history, anthropology, philosophy, and politics. Yet you deem me not qualified to comment.

And that is where you counter me with your specializations, and I have respect for people who seemingly dived very deep into social science. However, on another note, it surprises me that you would not consider what happens to a societal structure when you pull out of the core of said structure without any sort of auxiliary support to maintain its well-being.

So then why accuse me of wanting to exterminate Delaine pledgers? I have no intention whatsoever of exterminating Delaine pledgers, and the game mechanics prevent anyone from doing so even if they wanted to.

I believe I commented that I was directing most of my RP at the Empire as a whole.

Seriously, who called the Imperial campaign against Delaine a crusade? I sure as heck haven't. I'm thinking perhaps you saw an Imperial commander use the word "crusade" somewhere? It may well be that some Imperial commander somewhere did use the word. Doesn't mean I agree with them though.

Then just state that you don't see the campaign as a crusade. As I interpret it, it seems identical to a crusade of jingoism.

Well, you know, we blindly faithful folks who openly admit we have criticisms of our power have to stick together.

Agreed, and share our philosophical understanding to exchange what we have nurtured in our fields of study.

This again is not going to get us anywhere because our individual roleplays mean we've each got different interpretations of how things are in the Elite galaxy. Certain things you say about the Empire are not a part of my interpretation of the Empire at all.

Yep, all you have to do is clarify what your stance is, really. Arguing over some sort of inherent accuracy is silly, but you can definitely use pieces of lore to dissuade people of their interpretation.

Yes. It is baffling why you assert that we want to impose some sort of unified "established morality" on everyone else when we don't even have a unified morality amongst ourselves, and we certainly don't want to impose anything - I believe everyone here is free to express their views. How is that imposing?

Okay, maybe it didn't come across as clearly. What I mean by "established morality" is the mainstream morality most people are subscribed to.

I interpret the Empire is certainly imposing its view on others. You interpret the Empire to not impose its views.

If you personally believe in freedom of expression, great, with you there.

But let's remind ourselves how far RP will get us.

I don't believe might is right.

Delaine's Kumo Crew is founded on the belief that might is right. Delaine himself states it. You therefore have no ground to stand on when you advocate anyone else letting your philosophy flourish alongside alternative views because you don't believe in letting any other alternative views stand. Ironically by moving in with the Imperial fleet, the Empire is playing it exactly by the standards you claim to respect and live by - force - but then you start a thread claiming that the Empire wants to control you, protesting Imperial strong-arming, and inviting people to join you as the poor, preyed upon little guy. If you believe in might is right - which the Kumo Crew does - then when someone else stronger than you comes along its perfectly in keeping with your philosophy. At least argue your position on a platform that does not fundamentally contradict Kumo Crew ethos.

Let me clarify. What I mean by having alternative views is in the sense that societies can be very diverse and they don't have to interfere with one another just because their social structure, norms, and other important components of their respective world does not match up with another (The whole segregation of culture thing I wrote). In a society, though, there will usually have some sort of standardization that people adhere to.

So this: "If you contemplate that strength is only expressed through physical fitness and physique, then I must laugh at your lack of education and philosophical understanding of humanity in general. If you do not even possess the basic knowledge of epistemic anthropology, then I suggest you return when you gained the necessary knowledge to comment on the matter." isn't a personal insult?

Not only did you insult my education, my qualifications, my intelligence, and my ability to comment, but you did so without any knowledge of the actual qualifications I possess, and you somehow thought that I'd said strength was only expressed through physical fitness and physique when in fact from the very start I've held the opposite position.

It's aggressive RP, again, I did not expect you to be insulted over it and had no intention of bringing it outside of RP as I am speaking to you quite courteously after realizing RP mode is off and apologized if I caused you some sort of emotional stress.

For the latter part it's to criticize your understanding of Archon Delaine to be capable of the "worst of humanity," which again we can say that we can RP over this perpetually. What you deem to be the worst of humanity might not be so in another person's eye.

By responding to me point by point, you inferred that in order to defend my position I must respond in turn to each point you brought up.

I think "must" is ill-used here. You chose to respond point by point perhaps is better.

I personally like thoroughly studying another person's argument, it doesn't make it an obligation for you to do the same. Though I appreciate the effort.

 

[Vecter]

Well there is something I don't understand with this operation Davy Jones, liberating the empire citizens, you Archon you bad slaver and all that...

When we fortify our control systems, we transport marked slaves, ok it's horrible booo!! But when the empire is undermining us, they just kill the slaves, the poor imperial citizens. It's very odd way of liberating people...
I think of this and wonder, 1t of marked slave=one person or 10 or 100? Even at 1t=1person, every week it's a lot of imperial citizen getting "liberated" by imperial pledgers, I find it quite ironic.