A Moment Of Clarity : Retail Buyers Need Help From Beta Players

mongo2006

M
I'm no stranger to online games, nerfs, balancing, ghosting (unannounced nerfs), and the likes. I came here with a few friends who nolonger play the game for various reasons but I stayed. I progressed bought a Pyhon, sold the Python for a Type 9 and in 2 days got my Python back and started to gear it up.. Mind you this thread is not about the python there are plenty of them so if you want to talk about the Python this is not the place. clearly they are nerfing the Python to be vulnerable to Cobra's and Viper's in which 96% of the player base owns.. and being balanced against ships that don't even exist, I guess the company would be crazy to upset them or deviate from their vision of the game.

So that started me to thinking, Do I really know what Elite Dangerous is I had to ask myself and the answer was NO.. I don't. I don't know the lore, I don't know what the vision is for this game, I don't know the company that's making it, I don't know what there is to be had by playing this game. I feel the only way to find the answer to these questions is through communication with the people who have been here from day 1.


QUESTION: Clearly people who bought the game retain didn't expect nerfs to the best fighter in the game and then find out it's not a fighter but there is no rivaling ship to be had. Clearly balancing the Python to ships that cost 1/200th of the price can't be considered balancing.. so what is it being balanced to. What ship in the lore is supposed to be the top fighter out of the 15 ships to be added. When will it be here/?


QUESTION: How frequent do these nerfs come? I came from Mechwarrior and Star Wars Old Republic so I'm used to weekly nerfs and balancings But they where Pay to Win models, I thought games like this didn't change much. Clearly I'm wrong..

QUESTION: Where is this game headed, where can I find the true vision for the game, what expansions are to be expected, what ships are expected to come, What is the time table for this game?

I have many more question that I'm sure I share with the rest of the retail buyers but we have no media to quickly find it, everything is diluted with beta content.
 
Last edited:

Valethar

Valethar
The Python was never designated as a 'fighter'. It's a multi-role ship, but is definitely overpowered in some respects (I've flown one) and needs a little balancing. It's quite a bit larger than an Asp or Cobra, has better armor, better sheilds, better weapons, more cargo space, and the exact same agility as both of the smaller ships. It's also turned into the 'must have' ship, which is something the Dev team dislikes, as they want to encourage more diversity in ships, so the Python is being adjusted (probably a little too harshly from the look of some reports) to reduce some of it's combat prowess.

mongo2006 said:
I came from Star Wars Old Republic.. they were Pay to Win models... Clearly I'm wrong..
Click to expand...

You would be correct in that assumption. SWTOR is not 'P2W', but that's a subject suited to it's own topic.
 
Last edited:

Tar Stone

Banned
Tar Stone
I followed development fanatically from Dec 2013, bought in at premium beta, and I think the project has departed from the original vision and design docs starting a few weeks before release.

Other opinions may vary! I don't know where it's headed, I can't understand micro tuning of ship stats when shield cells are in the game. I don't get the sudden focus on PvP when the game was never ever EVER supposed to be focussed on PvP.

It's wait and see for your answers I'm afraid, but you will find others on here with more certainty on what is coming and when.
 

Windscreen Smudge

W
You don't progress up the ladder like a food chain in Elite. Each ship is meant to have it's use regardless of price point and if you honestly think they're going to nuke the python into obscurity then feel free to sell it and buy yourself 200 Vipers, then spread them about like confetti. So...
|
Answer: There is no best fighter, go take another look.
|
Answer: As frequently as needed, sometimes two or three times a day.
|
Answer: To the moon, Alice. All of the moons.
 

Nutter

Nutter
mongo2006 said:
I'm no stranger to online games, nerfs, balancing, ghosting (unannounced nerfs), and the likes. I came here with a few friends who nolonger play the game for various reasons but I stayed. I progressed bought a Pyhon, sold the Python for a Type 9 and in 2 days got my Python back and started to gear it up.. Mind you this thread is not about the python there are plenty of them so if you want to talk about the Python this is not the place. clearly they are nerfing the Python to be vulnerable to Cobra's and Viper's in which 96% of the player base owns.. and being balanced against ships that don't even exist, I guess the company would be crazy to upset them or deviate from their vision of the game.

So that started me to thinking, Do I really know what Elite Dangerous is I had to ask myself and the answer was NO.. I don't. I don't know the lore, I don't know what the vision is for this game, I don't know the company that's making it, I don't know what there is to be had by playing this game. I feel the only way to find the answer to these questions is through communication with the people who have been here from day 1.


QUESTION: Clearly people who bought the game retain didn't expect nerfs to the best fighter in the game and then find out it's not a fighter but there is no rivaling ship to be had. Clearly balancing the Python to ships that cost 1/200th of the price can't be considered balancing.. so what is it being balanced to. What ship in the lore is supposed to be the top fighter out of the 15 ships to be added. When will it be here/?


QUESTION: How frequent do these nerfs come? I came from Mechwarrior and Star Wars Old Republic so I'm used to weekly nerfs and balancings But they where Pay to Win models, I thought games like this didn't change much. Clearly I'm wrong..

QUESTION: Where is this game headed, where can I find the true vision for the game, what expansions are to be expected, what ships are expected to come, What is the time table for this game?

I have many more question that I'm sure I share with the rest of the retail buyers but we have no media to quickly find it, everything is diluted with beta content.
Click to expand...

Good questions,

I think the main base players lets call them backers... expected to realise their dreams and play Elite again with the beautiful galaxy we live in... but that's where it ends currently...

I don't know what consultants have advised FD but it's starting to swing way off the mark - in the original Elite there were no concerns over Balance that developer(s) needed to worry about.

The game is now 'online' and 'Multiplier' so I 'think' someone somewhere has thought Elite now needs to play and act like all the other multiplayer games out there and then this horrible word appears.... 'Balance'

Balance is what is driving this game down the pan, I'm not into PvP but did look forward to Co-OP...

Trouble is although on paper a 400 Million ship should cut down ships (like a 2mil viper) like a combine harvester eating wheat, BUT when it comes to 'online' play there needs to be 'balance' according to many idiots out there...

So now the focus seems to be about keeping everyone happy campers, so they think. But we all know that will not wash.

I remember having Military lazers cutting down Thargoids like my paper shredder eats A4... but now it's 'online' that would not be fair would it?
 

mongo2006

M
Tar Stone said:
I followed development fanatically from Dec 2013, bought in at premium beta, and I think the project has departed from the original vision and design docs starting a few weeks before release.

Other opinions may vary! I don't know where it's headed, I can't understand micro tuning of ship stats when shield cells are in the game. I don't get the sudden focus on PvP when the game was never ever EVER supposed to be focussed on PvP.

It's wait and see for your answers I'm afraid, but you will find others on here with more certainty on what is coming and when.
Click to expand...

Not sure I want to Wait and stick around, I got so mad over the last few days about the Python I bought a Gladius and a few other ships for Star Citizen. If ED isn't going where I want to go I got a backup plan but sure don't want to waist my time so I need to know whats up now.
 

bassman

B
Tar Stone said:
I can't understand micro tuning of ship stats when shield cells are in the game.
Click to expand...

Which is a good argument for them not to be in the game.

I don't get the sudden focus on PvP ...
Click to expand...

There is no "sudden focus", we spent many months in alpha and beta playtesting and tuning the balance of core mechanics such as fixed vs gimballed weapons, cannons, railguns, viper vs corba, the ins and outs of the flight model FAOn/Off/boost all with some degree of focus on PvP.
 

L_B_P

L_B_P
The crying kids always sooner or later destroy the good games. Nerf nerf nerf, where my epic gear, I have played for 3 days now, bla bla bla. This how it have been since I started in 2001 playing online. The company always looking for short time profit, instead favorite people with a higher IQ than a 8 year old kid.

+1 Mongo
 

mongo2006

M
Nutter said:
Good questions,

I think the main base players lets call them backers... expected to realise their dreams and play Elite again with the beautiful galaxy we live in... but that's where it ends currently...

I don't know what consultants have advised FD but it's starting to swing way off the mark - in the original Elite there were no concerns over Balance that developer(s) needed to worry about.

The game is now 'online' and 'Multiplier' so I 'think' someone somewhere has thought Elite now needs to play and act like all the other multiplayer games out there and then this horrible word appears.... 'Balance'

Balance is what is driving this game down the pan, I'm not into PvP but did look forward to Co-OP...

Trouble is although on paper a 400 Million ship should cut down ships (like a 2mil viper) like a combine harvester eating wheat, BUT when it comes to 'online' play there needs to be 'balance' according to many idiots out there...

So now the focus seems to be about keeping everyone happy campers, so they think. But we all know that will not wash.

I remember having Military lazers cutting down Thargoids like my paper shredder eats A4... but now it's 'online' that would not be fair would it?
Click to expand...


Well I don't want to play a game that isn't balanced.. nor do I want to play a game that balances a 180,000,000m - 300,000,000, ship to a 1,000,000 -8,000,000 ship, that just seems wrong to me, something is missing between and there is nothing to adjust the glaring void of equality..

There will always be a top gun, top sword, top mech, top ship.. they may be the top if you are skilled or they may be top right out of the box.. there is no way around that, nor am I interested in discussing that point.. I just want to know if I'm wasting my time. gonna read that thread that was posted ealier
 

bassman

B
mongo2006 said:
Well I don't want to play a game that isn't balanced.. nor do I want to play a game that balances a 180,000,000m - 300,000,000, ship to a 1,000,000 -8,000,000 ship, that just seems wrong to me, something is missing between and there is nothing to adjust the glaring void of equality..
Click to expand...

It seem quite straight forward to me. The combat ships are broadly arranged in power tiers something:
sidey/eagle
cobra/viper
asp
clipper / python
anaconda

The bit that people seem to be struggling to understand is that a ship in a higher tier is not necessarily better in every respect that one in a lower tier and futhermore that there when you bring in other factors such as piloting skill and outfitting choice there may be occasions where a ship is vulnerable to one a tier or two below (although generally that would the exception rather than the norm). These are deliberate design paradigms on FDs part in order to keep all ships relevant in the game long term rather than everyone going through the same upgrade path and ending up in an anaconda.

Thise seeking a route to invulnerability via trade grinding are going to be disappointed as I see no indication that the designers intend to provide that (and l hope that doesnt change).
 
Last edited:

Noogillim

Noogillim
They could easily balance the effect of bigger more powerful ships by simply restricting their availability and have no insurance recovery on them.

So when you get one you treat it as a precious object and don't just end up tooling around at nav beacons hitting every stickleback that drops out of HS.

Not sure that would go down to well with a lot of people though?
 

Windscreen Smudge

W
Nutter said:
Why is there no best fighter ?
Click to expand...

Because each ship is intended for different things. Geared differently, they all have weaknesses and strengths.
|
Picture it like a game of rock, paper scissors. Got a Viper with some lasers? Great, you'll have a blast until an Eagle gets behind you with some dumbfires. Eagle with some dumbfires? Should work out well for you until you come across an Asp with a full loadout of gimbaled multicannons, because he only needs 2 seconds to shred through your shields and hull. Are you that asp pilot? Things should be a lark until you come across a Cobra or Viper with rails, who will just keep their distance where your damage is laughable and pop your power plant in a few shots.
|
You can go round and round like that all day. There is no best fighter, just more optimal fittings for most situations, and really good fittings for particular situations. And this is exactly how it should be, it encourages diversity in both gameplay and game design.
 

Nutter

Nutter
Windscreen Smudge said:
Because each ship is intended for different things. Geared differently, they all have weaknesses and strengths.
|
Picture it like a game of rock, paper scissors. Got a Viper with some lasers? Great, you'll have a blast until an Eagle gets behind you with some dumbfires. Eagle with some dumbfires? Should work out well for you until you come across an Asp with a full loadout of gimbaled multicannons, because he only needs 2 seconds to shred through your shields and hull. Are you that asp pilot? Things should be a lark until you come across a Cobra or Viper with rails, who will just keep their distance where your damage is laughable and pop your power plant in a few shots.
|
You can go round and round like that all day. There is no best fighter, just more optimal fittings for most situations, and really good fittings for particular situations. And this is exactly how it should be, it encourages diversity in both gameplay and game design.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you have just described the problem with 'online play'

'Rock Paper Scissors' ?

WRONG! - In the REAL world it's not like that at all.

Lets go for something easy, like a Sherman tank v's a Panther Tiger - Both Tanks

Sherman goes .. too late dead
Ok so Sherman turns then... Oh too late dead
Aha! Sherman hits Panther! Yay! - Panther turns and ... yep Sherman Dead

7 Sherman tanks take on the Panther now it's a fight! Panther Dead + Plus 4 Shermans dead - Shermans Win!
 

zaccheus44

Z
bassman said:
Which is a good argument for them not to be in the game.



There is no "sudden focus", we spent many months in alpha and beta playtesting and tuning the balance of core mechanics such as fixed vs gimballed weapons, cannons, railguns, viper vs corba, the ins and outs of the flight model FAOn/Off/boost all with some degree of focus on PvP.
Click to expand...

Yes this has already been a huge set back, the idea of balance in this game. They made gimballed weapons and turrets a complete mess, the spin around like drunk fireflies...it makes no sense except for the people whining that they were too good and needed balancing. The only balancing a game where everyone can literally buy and use the same things as everyone else is how money is earned to buy those things. All professions should make around the same profit per hour so no play style trumps a nother.

More powerful ships should be more powerful

More powerful weapons (premium beta rail guns I'm looking at you), need to be more powerful

Otherwise there is no point in having variety, it's just aesthetics
 

ermtony

ermtony
Nutter said:
Sorry but you have just described the problem with 'online play'

'Rock Paper Scissors' ?

WRONG! - In the REAL world it's not like that at all.

Lets go for something easy, like a Sherman tank v's a Panther Tiger - Both Tanks

Sherman goes .. too late dead
Ok so Sherman turns then... Oh too late dead
Aha! Sherman hits Panther! Yay! - Panther turns and ... yep Sherman Dead

7 Sherman tanks take on the Panther now it's a fight! Panther Dead + Plus 4 Shermans dead - Shermans Win!
Click to expand...

Actually, in the real world, the question was, could the Panther get to where is was needed without breaking down. Shermans were a lot more reliable and if one broke down there were plenty more to take up the slack. So half the time there wasn't an engagement at all. And then when you factor in fuel supplies... well, pretty obvious really. Not a great analogy with E: D, where there pros and cons to every ship.
 

Flyinpiranha

F
zaccheus44 said:
Yes this has already been a huge set back, the idea of balance in this game. They made gimballed weapons and turrets a complete mess, the spin around like drunk fireflies...it makes no sense except for the people whining that they were too good and needed balancing. The only balancing a game where everyone can literally buy and use the same things as everyone else is how money is earned to buy those things. All professions should make around the same profit per hour so no play style trumps a nother.

More powerful ships should be more powerful

More powerful weapons (premium beta rail guns I'm looking at you), need to be more powerful

Otherwise there is no point in having variety, it's just aesthetics
Click to expand...

Spot on. I bought a Python besides the nerf because now, it's just a trader. Yay.

It's stupid trying to look for that 'balance' when it comes to PVP. I now assume ANY ship that can't be taken out by a Viper will be nerfed so it can. I didn't realize this entire game would be focused around PVP balance. I know it's not focused around PVE.

I'm just waiting it out. I spent $100's on this game, HOTAS, Headtracking, setting up a cockpit and now I just trade. I enjoy it for now but my goal was to roam around in a Python where my insurance was the cost of a Viper. Me and 2 Vipers? No sweat. Me and 3 Vipers? Starting to sweat. Me and 4? I'm out, I know better. But now it seems the devs want 1 Viper to be able to take me out no matter the skill level. Missiles or me not even being able to stay on his tail or whatever ... we'll see. I have absolutely no inclination to take it into PVP, if I do I'll just combat log. You want to nerf my ship? Then nerf the insurance and fuel cost down to that of a Viper if it's supposed to be just as disposable.

PVP will be the death of this game. It's not designed around massive battles or PVP, they're chasing a dream that no other company has been able to do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom